Re: All in Perspective

If by proof you mean me walking into your house and sitting down on your couch and telling you to look up and you see a man in a white robe with a long white beard floating in the sky and waving at you saying "Here I am " then sorry no luck.

If by proof you see the evidence left, then by all means I can provide you with plenty of that.

People are convicted and sentenced to death based on evidence everyday in courts across the world. This is good enough for people to accept except when it comes to religion. Evidence comes in many flavors.It is a common tool used in everyday life for as long as man has existed.

People are ok with accepting evidence in any aspect of their lives except religion. When you say religion peoples defenses immediately go up. They say show me proof, and then ingore the proof. This is simply because it is about religion.

I can only give you the evidence and you decide for yourselves. That is how it works. That is the beauty of freedom of choice that started in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve having the choice to eat of the forbidden fruit or not.

Re: All in Perspective

6 pages in and the thread title still applies. plus 6 pages later the mormons are still idiots

Re: All in Perspective

I skimmed through the 6 pages with little interest in getting involved in the deep discussion, so I'll just say one thing.

I want to get an Antares star and ruin someone's shit with it. :RockOn:

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=shosh;374221]hey religious homeboy... do your research first :)

pickle... it all comes back to the mormons...[/quote]

I have researched more than everyone on this forum combined and there was no council that decided what was and was not scripture.

Letters written by the apostles who were guided by the Holy Spirit were hand delivered to the early christians in Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Rome, Philipi, Collose, and Jerusalem. These letters were the scriuptures we have today. No man decided what was and was not scripture.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374074]thats the thing, you cant, no one can, and that is why faith is faith and not fact.[/quote] BAM! end of story.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=influx;374318]BAM! end of story.[/quote]

[quote=cowardly dj;374313]If by proof you mean me walking into your house and sitting down on your couch and telling you to look up and you see a man in a white robe with a long white beard floating in the sky and waving at you saying "Here I am " then sorry no luck.

If by proof you see the evidence left, then by all means I can provide you with plenty of that.

People are convicted and sentenced to death based on evidence everyday in courts across the world. This is good enough for people to accept except when it comes to religion. Evidence comes in many flavors.It is a common tool used in everyday life for as long as man has existed.

People are ok with accepting evidence in any aspect of their lives except religion. When you say religion peoples defenses immediately go up. They say show me proof, and then ingore the proof. This is simply because it is about religion.

I can only give you the evidence and you decide for yourselves. That is how it works. That is the beauty of freedom of choice that started in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve having the choice to eat of the forbidden fruit or not.[/quote]

As I stated proof/evidence are hand in hand in much of how we do things in our everyday life. Yet evidence is not enough for most people when it comes to religion.

My question to all of you is: Why is evidence not proof when it comes to religion?

What is the first thing done at a crime scene? Collect evidence. It is good enough for you in your secular life yet you reject it in religion. That is called a double standard. You point the finger at religion and say it is unbelievable because you can not see proof. Well let me explain the truth about faith.

Faith in God is not a blind faith leapt into with eyes closed. Faith in God comes from the evidence left us. It is collected and examined and scrutinized more than evidence for a capital murder trial. The faith of a true Christian (and I do not mean one who says with their lips I am a Christian, I mean one who is obedient to the inerrant truth of Gods words) comes from looking at the evidence much like a court judge would and says "yes this is conclusive enough for me to know that God exists." Much like a judge would say "yes there is sufficient evidence for me to issue an arrest warrant for John Doe" If a person can not tell you why they believe God exists thenthere is no faith in them. I can tell you exactly why Ibelieve in God ans show you concrete evidence to support it.

If you want to really test someones faith in God then ask them why they believe he exists and then watch how they studder and fumble and most end up saying 'He just does" That my friends is not faith that is foolishenss.

For people to say evidence is acceptable for me in situation A and then say it is not when it comes to religion is as I stated earlier a double standard

Re: All in Perspective

I think the question is not about faith itself, but what makes one's faith in their God better or worse than another's faith in their God.

You say you have proof - irrefutable proof - that the God of the Christian Bible is the one true God and all others are false idols. That's great - really, I'm happy to hear it. So you have your Word of God, you study and pour over this Word, you live your life based on this Word and, as far as I can tell from a house music message board, you live a good, fruitful, happy life. And at the end of your days hopefully you will pass feeling that you have lived a long, full, good life and proceed into the hereafter confident that you followed the right path.

Now I'd like you to meet Frank. He's a member of a small tribe hidden deep in the Amazon rainforest, totally secluded from the "modern" world. He lives in a handcrafted hut with his family among a number of other handcrafted huts filled with other families that make up his village. These people have never heard of Jesus, Noah, Issac, Enos, Judas, the whole gang - they have no idea what Sodom is, couldn't even begin to find Jerusalem on a map and haven't the slightest clue who God the Father is. They do believe in a divine order though and have an equally elaborate and detailed system of beliefs as any other organized religion. Frank has his Word of his God, he studies and pours over this Word, lives his life based on this Word and it is a good, fruitful, happy life. At the end of ol' Frank's days he is filled with the certainty that he lived a long, full, good life and proceeds into the hereafter confident that he followed the right path.

Frank's case is not some hypothetical situation here. Millions, if not billions of people throughout history have been a believer in something [I]other [/I]that your version of The story - they lived a honest, hard working, devotional life. They raised a family, guided their children to be honest, hard working, devotional people and were laid to rest feeling that they were faithful followers of [I]their [/I]version of The story. They did not worship your God (according to you the one and ONLY one true God) but the God they did worship filled them with the same joy and happiness, directed them to live just as honest and good a life, and supplied them with the same peace of mind and spirit that you enjoy. Yet according to you they are all.....wrong?

If you said that the God of the Bible is the one true God [I]for you[/I] - that's one thing. But when you say that the God of the Bible is the one true God [I]period - [/I]well that is when you lose it. That is defining the indefinable, and we mere mortals have a long way to go before we can start claiming the monopoly on higher powers.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374351]As I stated proof/evidence are hand in hand in much of how we do things in our everyday life. Yet evidence is not enough for most people when it comes to religion.

My question to all of you is: Why is evidence not proof when it comes to religion?

What is the first thing done at a crime scene? Collect evidence.

For people to say evidence is acceptable for me in situation A and then say it is not when it comes to religion is as I stated earlier a double standard[/quote]

Bossy, evidence is collected at a crime scene, analyzed, the results presented before a jury and THEN the verdict of guilty/not guilty is presented.

What sequence of events leading FROM evidence TO verdict are carried out in Religion or even God?

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374212]HOLY FUCK

thats awesome kat. whats ur address, imma come give you a hug. finally someone with the capability to be more offensive than me.[/quote]

:lol:

I'm usualy very nice to people but making a statement like taht is just plain stupid and narrowminded - but I have to give the guy a credit for not giving up on his beliefs! Although he seems brainwshed to the max - if that doesn't effect other ppls lives its ok.

Re: All in Perspective

oh shit i see poto reading this thread. 5.4.3.2....

and yet we still have zero verifiable evidence of creationism, souls, or miracles.

Re: All in Perspective

so wait, let me get this straight.. you can prove, without a doubt, that god exists and created the universe solely based off a book that was written thousands of years ago, by MAN (not god)? that's utterly rediculous. just because something is said in a book, doesn't mean it's true, or that it was ever true. i could write that i am god on a piece of paper and does that mean it's true? of course not. just because something was said in the bible doesn't mean that it is a fact or that it was ever true. science, and fact for that matter, can be duplicated indefinitely and always have the same result. to try to say that the bible is the equivilent of scientific fact for christianity is ubsurd.

Re: All in Perspective

the bible is truth and is completely reproducable every time. just look at the revised testaments. :lol:

Re: All in Perspective

when i saw miketpoto in the users viewing this thread box i was waiting for a hydrogen bomb to go off.

Re: All in Perspective

^^Maybe another day.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374351] What is the first thing done at a crime scene? Collect evidence. It is good enough for you in your secular life yet you reject it in religion. That is called a double standard. You point the finger at religion and say it is unbelievable because you can not see proof. Well let me explain the truth about faith. [/quote]

Cowardly first off we need to set a few things straight. When it comes to law you have civil matters where decisions are based on a perponderance of evidence, and criminal matters which are beyond reasonable doubt (favorable for the defense). However when you are trying to prove things in a scientific arena its a whole nother' story.

In science, theories are presented, in which attempts to disprove them are made- falsification. If you can poke a hole in the theory, it no longer holds true. Typically revisions are made to adjust our current understandings and then it may be represented.

Since religion always clashes with science, guess which standard you are going to have to meet? You came in here and started claiming that our distance measurements of stars and planets are incorrect and that somehow religion has the correct answers.

When it comes to answering the questions of the universe, religion tries to answer the WHY, while science tries to answer the HOW. The two don't have to disagree but the persons defending their positions always seem to.

If you want your evidence to be believed, as things in science are, you need to provide a theory that can be falsified. A theory that states there is a God, doesen't meet that criteria - and that's why its faith.

Ooh and regarding this quote: [quote]Here is another one. You can not see, taste,hear, smell, or feel time. Do you doubt it exists? Of course not. There is evidence of its existence all around you. Death, grey hair, the time it takes to read this, I could go on and on[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1].[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1] [/SIZE][/FONT]Time is measureable, so is death and grey hair. The same for gravity, even though we don't completely understand it workings, we can measure it, so therefore it exists. Now tell me, how does one measure God?

Re: All in Perspective

Nevermind.

[url]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31302[/url]

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374053]I assure you that we stand by the Bible and every word that is in it. Creation = 7 days, Evolution is not accepted as it is not spoken of in the Bible.[/quote]

So you don't believe in electric lights or the internal combustion engine then??? I don't think that these were in the Bible either.