Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;373998]but every fact you provide to ensure us of god's existence is easily disproven with basic logic, physics, chemistry, biology[/quote]

Lets try that! Use basic logic, physics,chemistry to disprove this.

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place Genesis 1:9[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]When you look at a map or globe you see that all the oceans are connected (gathered into one place). Genesis was written 1446 BC. The first circumnavigation of the globe was led by [B]Ferdinand Magellan[/B], who was born in Oporto, Portugal in 1480. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Seems Moses knew that long before anyone else did.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]To understand why Moses knew that, you should have a basic understanding of how the Bible was written. Here is a quick rundown: God used the Holy Spirit to guide the writers of the Bible. God authored it and man just wrote down what God told them to write. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]I can go more in depth with that if needed.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]I assure you Moses had no way to circumnavigate the planet. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: All in Perspective

Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that god could be the image of an advanced civilization (a billion years ahead of us in their technology) where they can alter everything around them based on thought ..... and we as an insignificant race of living beings and limited understanding accepts that as proof of God (which is also a word created by the depths of our limitations as was the Bible written in the same conditions?)

Re: All in Perspective

Please pass the popcorn...this is getting good. ;)

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374001]it doesnt. if god existed, then why hasnt NYC suffered like soddom. trust me, i know for a fact that we do shit a lot worse than they did.[/quote]

Well, look at Katrina. It wasted NO, and NO is know for its loose society and its embrace for the homosexual community. Just because NY has not fallen does not mean that it wont ever fall. Just because you do not see brimstone and fire does not mean that God is not exacting his vengence in other ways.

[quote=thesightless;474001]dude, i went to catholic school my entire pre collegiate life. st. ignatius in hicksville NY and Chaminade HS in mineola NY. i know the religion back and forth. but i realize that what religion calls a soul and mind is nothing more than a chemical reaction within the brain. reactions based on other chimcal reactions that come from the eyes, ears, nose, and skin.[/quote]

Please do not take this as a personal attack on you but I assure you that the Catholics are about as far from the truth of Gods word as any religion can be. As usual I can use the Bible to make that point more clear if needed.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;373997]When God wrote the Bible he made it clear. It is man who has distorted its meaning over time.[/quote]

But God did not write the Bible, man did.

The Bible did not fall from heaven as a complete text - it was compiled, edited, written and rewritten over the course of centuries. Then it was translated into a myriad of different languages, passed throughout the world where it would again be edited, written and rewritten. [I]Hand written[/I], mind you, by cloistered men in dark rooms with tired eyes. With that many hands in the pot, I'd say there's just as much margin for error in the Bible as there is in astronomy.

And if you argue that God [I]inspired[/I] man to write the Bible - making him a kind of indirect co-author - then why were there so many version of the Bible in the early years of the Christian faith? The majority of Christ's followers couldn't even agree which gospels should make up the official Christian canon until the 3rd Century, and even then it took the Council of Nicea, a [I]political [/I]body made up of bishops and advisors, to come to a final ruling.

Edit: Your post went up before I finished this, so I missed:

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][quote]To understand why Moses knew that, you should have a basic understanding of how the Bible was written. Here is a quick rundown: God used the Holy Spirit to guide the writers of the Bible. God authored it and man just wrote down what God told them to write. I can go more in depth with that if needed.[/quote][/SIZE][/FONT]

My original question still stands though.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374013]Well, look at Katrina. It wasted NO, and NO is know for its loose society and its embrace for the homosexual community. Just because NY has not fallen does not mean that it wont ever fall. Just because you do not see brimstone and fire does not mean that God is not exacting his vengence in other ways.[/quote]

Then what justifies the islands (around the Maldives) inhabited by tribes that barely even clothe themselves and live their lives without any of the "man-made" crimes of modern day, yet were washed away by the Tsunami a few years back? Why did they deserve any of it?

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=Kamal;374005]Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that god could be the image of an advanced civilization (a billion years ahead of us in their technology) where they can alter everything around them based on thought ..... and we as an insignificant race of living beings and limited understanding accepts that as proof of God (which is also a word created by the depths of our limitations as was the Bible written in the same conditions?)[/quote]

As I stated earlier it takes a vivid imagination to not believe that God exists.

Now lets be honest here, that is something that is imagined.

Re: All in Perspective

If what I said above was written down in some stoners book, that ended up being passed down the ages and was eventually (and mistakingly) considered a scripture of sorts, you'd probably believe it wouldn't you ?

Re: All in Perspective

or the fact that hurricanes have existed since weather. they happen every year, all over the planet. and the hurricanes can be proven as a natural act through study of trade winds based out above the atlantic and pacific oceans. and the NOLA destruction had a little more to do with human error and ignorance than weather.

Re: All in Perspective

its like talking to a...

[IMG]http://www.backdrops.net/images/05%20Brick%20Wall%206%20x%2010'.JPG[/IMG]

give one valid, fact that god exists and im sure one of us can use science to prove otherwise.even the church has backed off since its been disproven time and time again. now, instead of creationism, they call it divine intervention. its only time..

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=BSully828;374015]But God did not write the Bible, man did.

My original question still stands though.[/quote]

I am not sure where you are getting that information but is is very inaccurate. There was no council that decided what was or was not scripture. The Hebrews were given the Old Testament and the New Testament was letters written to the early church in differrent locations. There is only two English translations that the Church should be using today. The King James and the American Standard. These were translated from the ORIGINAL texts. These two versions were a translation NOT a transliteration. The difference being a translation is from one language to another. A transliteration is a translation with the translator attempting to decipher what they thought the original text was trying to say. That is what the New International Version did. A transliteration. There is a huge difference in the two.

Example is John 3:16 King James version: [SIZE=3][COLOR=#008080][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Joh 3:16[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him [B][U][I]should[/I][/U][/B] not perish, but have eternal life.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]New International version:[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son,that whoever believes in him [B][I][U]shall[/U][/I][/B] not perish but have eternal life.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Notice the words in bold. There is a great difference in should not and shall not perish. Should not being dependant on the person, and shall not means no matter what you do you will not perish if you simply believe. BTW the entire Baptist doctrine is based on being saved by faith only which is what the NIV carries throughout its contents. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Did that help any?[/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: All in Perspective

eternal life... last time i looked... everyone dies.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=Kamal;374016]Then what justifies the islands (around the Maldives) inhabited by tribes that barely even clothe themselves and live their lives without any of the "man-made" crimes of modern day, yet were washed away by the Tsunami a few years back? Why did they deserve any of it?[/quote]

I would not begin to think that I could explain what goes on in the world or how God uses his means. I am just a mere man. I only know what God has given me in Scripture.

I am afraid I can not answer that question, that is one for God only.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374031]eternal life... last time i looked... everyone dies.[/quote]

not if you're greeted with 9 virgins....

boy the ratio of man to woman must SUCK in heaven.... and if true, God must surely be a woman too :lol:

Re: All in Perspective

alanis morissette?

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374028]even the church has backed off since its been disproven time and time again. now, instead of creationism, they call it divine intervention. its only time..[/quote]

I do not know what denomination you refer to here but the church that Christ purchased with his blood and is the church of the New Testament has not backed off of anything and has not changed the name of anything. You must be referring to a denomination started by man.

If I had to guess you refer to "the church" as the Catholics, right?

Re: All in Perspective

christian sects in general have all chanegd thier tone. no more 7 days theory, they admit evolution, they admit to the big bang....

what sect are you exactly?

Re: All in Perspective

ugh, i don't know why anyone even bothers to respond to this guy...he seems to want to take everything known in the scientific world and through some convoluted argument try and show how its inaccurate...therefore only God and religion are correct.

just ignore him.

Re: All in Perspective

what is the churches answer for when the sun decides to burn out and all life in this UNIVERSE is destroyed?

if all life is easily destroyed like it will be, then is humanity just god's experiment?

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374040]christian sects in general have all chanegd thier tone. no more 7 days theory, they admit evolution, they admit to the big bang....

what sect are you exactly?[/quote]

Well that could be hard and easy to answer at the same time. The church that is spoken of in the New testament does not go by a sect or denomination. It is the one church that is the pure and undefiled truth of Gods word. The church of Christ is what is on the sign outside. It is the one single-in-nature church that Christ purchased with his blood. It is not a denomination started by any man. It traces back to the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 when Peter preached the first sermon and 3000 people were baptized. Acts 2:47 says ...and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." That is the church that Christ will deliver up to heaven in the end of time.

That is as brief as I could get without a long Biblical explanation.

Any help?

I assure you that we stand by the Bible and every word that is in it. Creation = 7 days, Evolution is not accepted as it is not spoken of in the Bible.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=day_for_night;374045]ugh, i don't know why anyone even bothers to respond to this guy...he seems to want to take everything known in the scientific world and through some convoluted argument try and show how its inaccurate...therefore only God and religion are correct.

just ignore him.[/quote]

it is called a conversation.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374030]I am not sure where you are getting that information but is is very inaccurate. There was no council that decided what was or was not scripture.[/quote]

Quick read up on the Council of Nicea can be found [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea"]here[/URL]. There were multiple Councils in fact, but the first was the most important. One of the main issues delt with at that meeting was whether or not Jesus was the same as God - not the son of God, but the actual physical embodiment of God on Earth. That may seem like an easy distinction to a modern Christian, but in 325 AD it was the cause of a major rift among believers. One large enough that the powers that be felt it needed to be resolved.

Later Councils were brought together to decide which gospels should or should not be included in the Bible that was to be recognized by the Church. Some of the more popular gospels - such as The Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, and Gospel of Enoch - were read and studied by believers all across the Christian world at the time. Those same powers that be came to the decision that these would be excluded from the official version and off to the recesses of history they went.

Check out Masks of God: Occidental Mythology by Joseph Campbell for a much better description of what went on during this time.

[quote=cowardly dj;374030]These two versions were a translation NOT a transliteration. The difference being a translation is from one language to another. A transliteration is a translation with the translator attempting to decipher what they thought the original text was trying to say.[/quote]

There's a problem with that explanation though - languages do not translate perfectly to other languages. Different tenses, different usages, different words altogether make for a 1:1 correspondence between languages to be impossible. Try reading a sentence in English [I]exactly [/I]as it is written in (say) spanish, or french, or japanese - it doesn't work. Now try reading a sentence in English [I]exactly [/I]as it is written in a language whose dialect hasn't been used in almost 2000 years. See my point?

Unless you are able to speak the language that the [I]original [/I]Bible was written in, then you are subject to a flawed version of this "perfect" work. You are at the mercy of someone else's attempt to translate that which is nothing more than a collection of symbols to you and I. Again - lots of margin for error in there.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374054]it is called a conversation.[/quote]

its only called a conversation when both sides listen to each other. you don't listen to reason there sparky, you only hear what you want to.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote]It is the one church that is the pure and undefiled truth of Gods word.[/quote]

thats what EVERY religious sect from every religion says.

how do you factor in Zoroastrianism and Judiaism, both organized religions, that existed ages before ~180 AD when the church ordered the various texts to be organized into what we call the new testament. are they bunk? are catholics, baptists, episcopalians, mormons all wrong? they view you as wrong. all major current day religions are askewed views based upon the zoroastrian beleifs of good vs evil in human behaviour and assigned fictional personalities to give people hope and fear.

and plz, give us a concrete example of god's presence. something that is real, viewable, can be proven by fact repetitively.

im not here to trash religion, go look at my prior posts, it does a lot of good in the world and gives a few billion hope for something good. but in reality, it has been disproven with every scientific advance humans have made.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=day_for_night;374058]its only called a conversation when both sides listen to each other. you don't listen to reason there sparky, you only hear what you want to.[/quote]

So if I understand what you are saying then the side of science is reason and the side of God is not reason and I am being unreasonable because I am not accepting science's side of the story as reason?

Hmmmmm.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374063]thats what EVERY religious sect from every religion says.

how do you factor in Zoroastrianism and Judiaism, both organized religions, that existed ages before ~180 AD when the church ordered the various texts to be organized into what we call the new testament. are they bunk? are catholics, baptists, episcopalians, mormons all wrong? they view you as wrong. all major current day religions are askewed views based upon the zoroastrian beleifs of good vs evil in human behaviour and assigned fictional personalities to give people hope and fear.

and plz, give us a concrete example of god's presence. something that is real, viewable, can be proven by fact repetitively.[/quote]

1. the answer the Bible gives to all the other religions being wrong is yes. However it would take more time than I bet you are willing to give for me to show that to you, howbeit I could and you would understand it just as easily as it is written in the Bible. Not that you would believe in God after but you would understand why all the other religions that have come are not the church that Christ purchased with his blood.

2. what is concrete evidence to you?

Re: All in Perspective

concrete evidence is something that can be examined, studied, looked at, and backed up. every beleif in church is a blind idea, with no evidence.

what evidence proves that we were created in 6 days? what evidence proves that Jesus was god, not just another prophet as the other 2 major religions view him. what evidence does chritianity give us that mohammed wasnt the true prophet?

how would you, if given the oppurtunity, come to my house and prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that we have a soul, that the stories in the Bible are true, that the universe was created in 6 days?

thats the thing, you cant, no one can, and that is why faith is faith and not fact.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374074]but faith cannot be proven, its believed without fact. that why it is called faith. it is a belief in the unknown.[/quote]

[SIZE=3][COLOR=#008080][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Hebrews 11:1[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1] Now faith is assurance of [I][COLOR=#808080]things[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1] hoped for, a conviction of things not seen[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Let me put that into an example that is tangible for you. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Faith is not limited to the religious realm. I have never seen the soil of Italy. Does that mean that it does not exist? Not so. I have faith that it exist based on the testament of others who have been there. Is that a blind faith just because I can not/have not seen Italy? I am "convinced" that Italy exists based on the evidence of things not seen.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Here is another one. You can not see, taste,hear, smell, or feel time. Do you doubt it exists? Of course not. There is evidence of its existence all around you. Death, grey hair, the time it takes to read this, I could go on and on.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Same goes for God. Just because I can not see him does not mean He is not there. I see the evidence of His works and know he exists. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1]Faith in God is no where near a blind faith[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: All in Perspective

ok, lemee re-frase this. so i dont get biblical quotes.

if you had every tool imaginable for geological survey and study, AND, the tools to examine space as we have today, how do you disprove the fact the earth was a result of a large explosion of elements and a few million years of gravity and rotation around the suns sphere of influence.

then, using everything that, lets say Cornell medical center, has, how are you going to deny that human evolved from what we have named primates. i know for a fact that when you examine the DNA proteins it shows that we share a lot of DNA, and this can done for ANY human being and ANY primate.

Re: All in Perspective

thesightless, I enjoyed the conversation and I appreciate you keeping it civilized and not disrespecting me as many have done in the past as you well know.

I enjoy debating and am always willing to answer any questions.

I am off to bed but I will be back on tomorrow to answer any questions anyone has. Perhaps there shoudl be a "the [ms] ask a religious guy thread" :)

Re: All in Perspective

hey, i am in the boat of being pro religion in general. it is a wonderful idea that i have witnessed personally affecting peoples lives. but faith is faith and fact is fact. it is simply a reason for us to wait for better things and hope that there is something more than the 80 or so years that our bodies are capable of living.

Re: All in Perspective

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;374003]To understand why Moses knew that, you should have a basic understanding of how the Bible was written. Here is a quick rundown: God used the Holy Spirit to guide the writers of the Bible. God authored it and man just wrote down what God told them to write.[/QUOTE]

just like God told the Christians that the Garden of Eden was in the Middle East, but he told the Mormons that it was in Missouri. Apparently God is a liar?

Here's a true statement proven by Science: Middle East does not equal Missouri

Re: All in Perspective

lol....

i finally figure out a way to ask the question without getting a biblical analogy and he hits the sack.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=thesightless;374115]lol....

i finally figure out a way to ask the question without getting a biblical analogy and he hits the sack.[/quote]

lol...that is funny.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374065]So if I understand what you are saying then the side of science is reason and the side of God is not reason and I am being unreasonable because I am not accepting science's side of the story as reason?

Hmmmmm.[/quote]

no no, don't twist my words. I said you don't listen to valid points from other people. you argue your views, but ignore anything you don't have an answer for. its called selective hearing, or in this case, reading.

Re: All in Perspective

this reminds me of yesterday, down at Ground Zero.

there were a few ''causies'' around, one guy was preaching, well, screaming thorugh a megaphone, on how god is almighty and has a master plan for the middle east..........

then, a block away, at Saint Pauls church, the clergy there was talking to people, preaching love, forgiveness, hope, compassion, and reality. not once did the words ''punishment, death, religion'' come up. he just spoke to the basic human emotions in a quiet, respectful manner.i spoke with him for 2 minutes and found him engageable, endearing and honest. he never pressed his certain viewpoint on me, just talked about how we should remain positive even though i was staring at a 70 foot hole in the ground where the lives and bodies of my loved ones were lost

that is the difference where religion becomes too much as opposed to where it can be vital in soothing and aiding people with hard times.

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;373997]I can provide facts about God's existence all day long but a person will not accept it because they are taking preconcieved concepts to the table. God's existence can be proven just not to some people.[/quote]

Please dont tell me I've spent almost an hour reading this whole thread expecting (well not really) to find the proof that god exists and the only thing you have provided is some deeply religious words shaped in some wierd sentences (I'm generalising here/no disrespect to the bible - it has completely different meaning to me) - sorry but everything you have said about proving gods existance is one big BS!!!

well that was a waste of time - thank you

Re: All in Perspective

HOLY FUCK

thats awesome kat. whats ur address, imma come give you a hug. finally someone with the capability to be more offensive than me.

Re: All in Perspective

Blame pickle...he is the one who started all this. ;)

Re: All in Perspective

[quote=cowardly dj;374030]I am not sure where you are getting that information but is is very inaccurate. [B]There was no council that decided what was or was not scripture.[/B] [/quote]

hey religious homeboy... do your research first :)

pickle... it all comes back to the mormons...