Re: miketpoto

[quote=bart_smastard]Didn't Jesus say it would be easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven [/quote]

yes he did and it is not the money it is where your heart is. If your life is dedicated to making money and buying "toys" then you are not serving God. Abraham was a very rich man but he was also called a righteous man [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080] Jam 2:23[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham[/SIZE][SIZE=2] believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [/SIZE]

It is not the money it is serving two masters [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080] Mat 6:24[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]No man [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]can[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] serve two masters[/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]:[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]for [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]either [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]he [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]will [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]hate [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]the [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]one,[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]and [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]love [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]the [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]other;[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]or [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]else [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]he [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]will [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]hold [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]to [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]the [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]one, [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]and [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]despise [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]the [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]other.[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Ye [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]cannot[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] serve[/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]God [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]and [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]mammon.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

mammon means wealth[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]

Re: miketpoto

[URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18976&highlight=cowardly"]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18976&highlight=cowardly[/URL]

Re: miketpoto

I have some issues with "going" to church. most go to "church" for showmanship. therefore they believe they have fair passage to Heaven. I am not saying all, but most. My own faith has grown a lot more outside of "church", funny as it may seem, it truly has. I do not quote the Bible, nor do I use it in my own defense. I guess to me that means I am the writer and the full bearer of understanding of the words within. Four different people can read the same passage, and all express different understandings. I do not think one yields higher or lesser. For that reason, I have difficulty with people saying this is right and this wrong. Man makes many mistakes, and even in my own faith, priests, bishops, cardinals, and other members have used the words of God to fuel war, for sex, for money, and for other things.

i do not think it is right, nor do i think it is fair.

Re: miketpoto

thanks CDJ

[QUOTE=palmer]search button imo

:CrackUp:[/QUOTE]

hey, I'm new here

Re: miketpoto

Can't you guys see that he is a classic case of "SAVED SYNDROME" ? If your life is a rollercoaster ride of ups and mostly downs, and you haven't had any way you've tried to achieve stability and/or prosperity end up working.... Perhaps its just a major lack in willpower (it's tough to motivate at all sometimes / depression / hopelessness / etc.) but I am not pointing fingers or claiming I know enough about Cowardly to even suggest what exactly made things so unpredictable and tumultuous.... But just like getting high, religious salvation and ever-lasting-redemption can be it's own escape or cover-up for dealing with the actual reasons behind who were are or why we do things.

Get in touch with yourself, find out who you truly are as a person, and if when you find the answer to that, and you still truly believe that you are not worthy of god's love or of your own (based on how you treat others and the world around you in general) then ask yourself what you have done or are doing that makes you feel this way. I'm willing to bet most people will have a few specific regrets and they have nothing to do with improperly worshiping god according to his contract.

Unfortunely, when you live life according to your own morals and values, you hold yourself accountable for doing the right thing as opposed to fearing punishment and eternal damnation... it takes a lot of personal strength to prioritize one's self-respect (and respect for others) before temptation with no tangible reward for doing so.

I am not telling you to do these things Cowardly, but I am putting them out there because I have half a family of recovering alchoholics who have been "saved" and I've never seen a better example such an ugly and emtpy reversal of what was once warm and compassionate turn cold and vacant. There was a few years time after the drinking stopped before the salvation started that showed me who they were as people truly, and sadly the beautiful parts of that are gone or hidden behind glazed over eyes. The details get WAY more fucked up and personal, so I shant share them on the forum, but if you are interested in hearing them, PM me and I will share them with you.

Re: miketpoto

I am with you on this one ( though most get introduced to religion by their parents from a young age and simply know no different ) .But i am with you on the whole rewards thing, i do good deeds because i want to not because i expect to get repaid for them and my concience stops me being a " bad person" not the threat of eternal damnation

Re: miketpoto

so CDJ, I'm still trying to see why we are not to use instruments in Church?

also in Malachi we are told to give a tithing to the Lord (tithe=tenth). so we should give 10% of what we have or make.

the scripture in revelations referrs to the book of revelations, more specifically John's prohecy.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=shosh]My next point is: Which is the TRUE Church of Jesus Christ?[/quote]

I can give you a quick rundown from memory as most of my study notes are at home.

The church wsa prophesied in the old testament by Isaiah. It was called the mountain of the Lord. Throughout the New Testament we see that the church was purchaed by the blood of Christ. It is an establishment that was designed by God before he made man and earth. (Ephesians 1:4) He desinged the "plan of salvation" beforehand because he gave man free moral will so if man sinned he had an advocate to make peace with God. Since Adam and Eve sinned man was separated from God. Jesus was sent to earth to reconcile man with God.

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Ephesians 1:7[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] In whom we have [B]redemption through his blood[/B], the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Eph 1:10[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]even[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] in him:[/SIZE] [SIZE=2][B][SIZE=2][COLOR=#800000]Eph 1:11[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][SIZE=2] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Eph 1:12[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. [/SIZE][/SIZE] [SIZE=2][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Eph 1:13[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] In whom ye also [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]trusted,[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, [/SIZE][/SIZE] [SIZE=2][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Eph 1:14[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Acts 20:28[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased[/SIZE][SIZE=2] with his own blood. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]So we now know that Christ purchased the church. So if he purchased it then he is its sole owner. Man has not the right to claim any other relation to the church which is established by God, not man.

Here is the where we see that the Church of Christ is the only church sanctified by scripture [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Matthew 16:13[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, [/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Whom [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]do [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]men [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]say [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]that [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]the [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Son [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]of [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]man [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]am?[/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Mat 16:14[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] And they said, Some [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]say[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]that[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]thou[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]art[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Mat 16:15[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] He saith unto them, [/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]But [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]whom [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]say [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]ye [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]that [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]I [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]am?[/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Mat 16:16[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [/SIZE] [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Mat 16:17[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] And Jesus answered and said unto him, [/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Blessed [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]art [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]thou, [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Simon [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Bar-jona: [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]for [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]flesh [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]and [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]blood [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]hath [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]not [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]revealed [/COLOR][/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]it [/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]unto [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]thee ,[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]but [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]my [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Father [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]which [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]is [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]in [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]heaven.[/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Mat 16:18[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]And [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]I say also [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]unto [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]thee, [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]That [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]thou [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]art [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Peter, [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]and [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]upon [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]this [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]rock [/COLOR][/SIZE][B][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]I [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]will [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]build [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]my [/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000][B]church[/B];[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]and [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]the [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]gates [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]of [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]hell [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]shall [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]not [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]prevail against [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]it.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

take this in conjunction with Romans 16:16 and you will see that there is only one church. [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Rom 16:16[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] Salute one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. [/SIZE]

If you study the Bible you will see that all through it we are warned to watch for false teachers.

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Mat 7:15[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]Beware [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]of [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]false prophets, [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]which [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]come [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]to [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]you [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]in [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]sheep's [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]clothing ,[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]but [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]inwardly [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]they [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]are [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]ravening [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ff0000]wolves.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][B][SIZE=2][COLOR=#800000]1Jo 4:1[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][SIZE=2] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

You will not see anywhere in the Bible any other mention of any name of the church. The word church comes from the greek word [I]ekklesia [/I]which means called out. The church that Christ established is made up of those called out by God before creation.

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Ephesians 1:4[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [/SIZE]

So in following the bible's outline of the church we see that ther eis only one body of the church which is often referred to the body of Christ

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]Rom 12:5[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] So we, [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]being[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]1Co 12:12[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]is[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] Christ. [/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]1Co 12:13[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]we[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]be[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] Jews or Gentiles, whether [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]we[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]be[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.[/SIZE]

So if any church does not carry the name of Christ as stated in Romans 16:16 we know from scripture that it is not sanctified by God. History teaches us that denominations came along as time progressed from the will of men taking scripture and changing it to meet his needs. That is why there are so many denominations with so many diffenet names. Man can take the scripture and twist it to meet his needs but just because he says it is scripture does not mean it is. Until you take the entire New testament ands put it together to make the complete "new covenant" you willnot understand it. You can not take jsut a few scriptures and use them to build a belief system. The bible does not contradict itself anywhere so if you read one thing in one place and then something that seems contrary to it then you need to research more in depth.

The Bible is not to be read like books we have today. It is a collection of inspired words by the inspired writers and it needs to be read over and over to understand it. Some points are in certain books in the New Testament and other points are in other books. Again I say you have to take the whole message and piece it together. That is why we are told in 2 timothy to "study to show thyself approved a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"

Re: miketpoto

[quote=bart_smastard]Just for the record I would like to make it clear I have nothing against CDJ at all as a person .It's just our views and beliefs contradict eachovers and this tends to lead into derogotary posts at each other . I do respect the level of comitment and knowledge he has on his faith . Although I disagree with almost everything he[B][U] posts if I didn't enjoy reading them[/U][/B] I wouldn't respond to them .. I've said my piece on this subject ..

:wanna fi: but i'm in training for the next time our paths cross :evil:[/quote]

these long winded ones are not enjoyable at all though..

Re: miketpoto

he sure does cover his grounds. good job on the layout, color, and formatting. A+ in my book. good stuff cdj.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=shosh]so CDJ, I'm still trying to see why we are not to use instruments in Church?[/quote]

It is as easy understood as you want it to be. I can not explain it any clearer than I have.

[quote=shosh]also in Malachi we are told to give a tithing to the Lord (tithe=tenth). so we should give 10% of what we have or make.[/quote]

Read Galatians and you will see that we are no longer bound by the Old Testament. It was a mentor to help people along until Christ came and died. The Old Testament was "nailed to the cross" with Jesus. He is the "new covenant." [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080] Heb 8:8[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant[/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ffffff]t[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2]with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [/SIZE] [quote=shosh]the scripture in revelations referrs to the book of revelations, more specifically John's prohecy.[/quote]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008080]2Ti 3:16[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2] All scripture[/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]is[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] given by inspiration of God, and [/SIZE][I][SIZE=2][COLOR=#808080]is[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=2] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [/SIZE]

I am not sure how it gets any more clear than that or at least I am not capable of breaking it down any more. Sorry.:(

Re: miketpoto

[quote=asdf_admin]he sure does cover his grounds. good job on the layout, color, and formatting. A+ in my book. good stuff cdj.[/quote]

Just trying to make it as easy as possible :D

Re: miketpoto

haha. i am with ya.

Re: miketpoto

50 bucks says he is copying and pasting from a bible page that has formatted text already, otherwise his own words wouldn't be typo's and one colored. Just a hunch.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=bart_smastard]these long winded ones are not enjoyable at all though..[/quote]

yes I know that it is alot and believe me I should pay more attention to the warning on the bottom of my keyboard about serious injury resulting form using the keyboard. My neck and shoulders are very sore. However if you read them you will get a better understanding of what I mention.

I believe that to hold a good viewpoint on something you need to be able to relate to all sides of it and this is your chance to see the Bible's side of what I talk about.

Re: miketpoto

go get those claws clipped mike .. ( we know he pastes posts but i got a hunch it is from his own "private studies") .

you could google 5 lines from one of his posts if you want to be sure

Re: miketpoto

[quote=miketpoto]50 bucks says he is copying and pasting from a bible page that has formatted text already, otherwise his own words wouldn't be typo's and one colored. Just a hunch.[/quote]

Yes and no. I have a Bible program on my computer with different versions of the Bible. I am using it for the scriptures. That is why ther are no mistakes in the scripture. The format and how it lays out on the page is mine but that is pointless. It is about the message:D

Re: miketpoto

CDJ my interest in religion is limited to the historical and current impacts it had/has on society . My view on the actual scryptures themselves are that they are lies and exagerations ( my beliefs remember not ures . i could be wrong you could be wrong.) I won't argue with you on what the bible contains or what messages it gives . But the validity of the book itself is what i contest you on when we lock horns on these matters

Re: miketpoto

Good point bart....

  I personally think God would have been a much better writer as well.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=bart_smastard]CDJ my interest in religion is limited to the historical and current impacts it had/has on society . My view on the actual scryptures themselves are that they are lies and exagerations ( my beliefs remember not ures . i could be wrong you could be wrong.) I won't argue with you on what the bible contains or what messages it gives . But the validity of the book itself is what i contest you on when we lock horns on these matters[/quote]

I have been aware of that from the onset of this. I have no problem with that. That is why it is called faith.

As I stated in my creation thread I have much more research and I will get it. It is basically reasons why the Bible is valid. I hope to get to it but you guys keep me busy in this thread:lol:

I have started typing it in word and I will paste it here. It is lengthy (as if that is not a given).

I am off back to my house to see if they have fixed my internet yet. If yes then I will see you guys later. If no then it will be tomorrow.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=miketpoto]Good point bart....

I personally think God would have been a much better writer as well.[/quote]

The scripture was written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit that was sent by God. The actual words in the Bible are from God but the penmenship is from men.

Re: miketpoto

So Just Like Joseph Smith?

Re: miketpoto

Men guided by the Holy Spirit (or so they say) also tortured people because they were 'wrong' and started wars because they though whole peoples and nations were 'wrong'.

By the way: I sincerely cannot believe you seriously said that those Africans are worshipping god in the wrong way because they use music and instruments. I just can't. I've been there, and they could easily match your faith bro, even though they know jack shit of what is written down in the Bible (that's what you get when they're illiterate huh), but because they use drums they're not doing it right?

How about religious people concentrate a little bit more on intention, instead of nitpicking on rules?

Re: miketpoto

just like Joseph Smith

Re: miketpoto

"men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." Blaise Pascal

I highly reccomend reading

UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN by john Krakauer

(actually, all of his books are incredible but this one is specifically relating to religious fundamentalism)

Re: miketpoto

Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum

Re: miketpoto

and ok, is it just me, or cowardly completely ignore my lengthy post of the day? I am trying not to read into that

Re: miketpoto

Well bugger me, that took a lot of reading.

My pennies worth.

1. Your all wrong, only Muslims have got it right and will enter the kingdon of heaven.

2. The bible is a good read and contains some very postive messages on how to live your life. That said the editing it recived in the 3rd Cent from some enthusiatic bishops/canons has skewed the true meaning of the good book.

3. If women are not allowed to become priests or bishops then Christianity is fundemetally flawed, If God in his wisdom has decided that women are inferior to men, then sorry but i'll have no part of it.

4. Rock and Roll is going to hell, so who wants to be in heaven?!!

[quote="poto"]Unfortunely, when you live life according to your own morals and values, you hold yourself accountable for doing the right thing as opposed to fearing punishment and eternal damnation... it takes a lot of personal strength to prioritize one's self-respect (and respect for others) before temptation with no tangible reward for doing so.[/quote] Damn right. I do not need religion to show me the difference between right and wrong.
I do the right thing because it is right, not because of faith.

On the old Beanz subject, Mike I can see your point. Beanz was allowed free reign for far too long.

Cowardly,. I have a lot of respect for you. I am glad to hear that things have improved since last year, but (and there is always a but) I would be insulted if you told me you were going to pray for me, i would have felt demeanded. It's good that have faith but you must also have tolerance, remember point # 1 ?? Are you sure that you are backing the right horse? So many sub-sections of every religion, can they all be right?

As for born again and saved ppl. Well, imo they are using religion as a crutch, the whisky and cheap brandy that got them through the day has been replaced, by the smarm of an evanglist preaching salvation. However if it works and they feel better for it, then i'm happy, i'm a tolerant person, i live my life the way i want to and in a way that is postive not only for myself but for the rest of you.

Re: miketpoto

1. Your all wrong, only Muslims have got it right and will enter the kingdon of heaven.

2. If women are not allowed to become priests or bishops then Christianity is fundemetally flawed, If God in his wisdom has decided that women are inferior to men, then sorry but i'll have no part of it.

alot of good stuff u wrote but to preach womens rights then say the muslims are spot on has got to be a piss take . all women are property of a man under islam

but the rest of it :D

Re: miketpoto

I think she was being ironic. Or satirically contradictory.

Re: miketpoto

1. She is a MAN. I have not been mistaken for a girl for over 23 years (until today)

2. I was being satirically contradictory. Delete Muslim and insert any religion it's all a gamble!

Re: miketpoto

Pardon my gay pronouns, I know a lady named Morgan and I am multitasking software installs and spreadsheets full of serial #'s. Its a hoot

Re: miketpoto

[quote=Yao]Men guided by the Holy Spirit (or so they say) also tortured people because they were 'wrong' and started wars because they though whole peoples and nations were 'wrong'. [/quote]

There are only 2 instances in the Bible where people are given the Hoy Spirit as guidance. In Acts 2 as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the apostles were given the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost to guide them in spreading the gospel. The other is on Acts 10 when the house of Cornelius was given the Holy Spirit to show that God has given salvation to the gentiles ( those not of Jewish heritage). The only other time people were given the holy spirit to guide them was when the apostles "laid their hands upon them" Any person who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit is misleading themselves and those around them. As it says in Acts 2:38 we get the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in the name of Jesus. It does not say we get the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If man is guided by the Holy Spirit to do things then he would never make a mistake or sin because the Holy Spirit comes from God and God is not wrong to those of us who believe. How anyone can claim to be driven by the Holy Spirit and sin is "proof in the pudding" so to speak. That to me is good evidence that they are not guided by the Holy Spirit.

As I stated earlier, man has taken the scripture and twisted it to meet his need and desires for power. That does not make the scripture wrong, it makes man wrong. Nowhere in the New testament will you find the directive to go out and force religion on people. We are told to spread the word and then he who hears it can decide.

[quote=yao]By the way: I sincerely cannot believe you seriously said that those Africans are worshipping god in the wrong way because they use music and instruments. I just can't. I've been there, and they could easily match your faith bro, even though they know jack shit of what is written down in the Bible (that's what you get when they're illiterate huh), but because they use drums they're not doing it right? [/quote]

As I said if they are worshiping the God of the Bible then the scripture condemns them, not me. I am just a man and can condemn none. The Bible is very clear of how we are to worship and if it is not followed the Bible tells us what the result will be. You will not find anywhere in the Bible where it says to worship God how you see fit.

[quote=yao]How about religious people concentrate a little bit more on intention, instead of nitpicking on rules?[/quote]

I am not saying this is you but that is the attitude people take towards the Bible and that is why we have so many denominations today. Instead of using the Bible as a tool, they try to use it in generalities and ignore the specifics. What if the laws of the land were just generalities and the judgement of them were in general too. Then a person who gets a ticket for speeding could be sentenced to death as easily as one who commits murder depending on how the judge feels that day. Would you feel confident going before a judge for something as small as that knowing he could sentence you to death if he so desired because the law is "in general" instead of "nitpicking" about the rules? The Bible is very specific on how to follow it. Just because some people do not take the time to learn it does not mean that all should be saved simply on generalities.

I hope you can understand what I mean. Nitpicking the rules is commanded of us in the Bible. It is how the saved will be saved and the damned will be damned.

Yao did you by chance read my other lenghty posts in here. :D If not then maybe you could take some time to do so as it explains some of what you ask more in depth. 8)

Re: miketpoto

Morgan so many people say that. It is a very common response. It is absolutely a choice whether or not to believe the Bible. That is why it says broad is the path that leads to destruction and narrow the gate to salvation.

[quote=morgan]The bible is a good read and contains some very postive messages on how to live your life. That said the editing it recived in the 3rd Cent from some enthusiatic bishops/canons has skewed the true meaning of the good book. [/quote]

I guess it depends on what you are reading. The King James Version and the American Standard Version are the truest. They just took the Hebrew and Greek text and translated it into English. Nothing wrong with that. There are books today that are written in a certain language and then translated into others.

There are many others (New International Version for instance) that translated it to what they thought it meant, or what they thought the scripture was trying to convey as they turned it into English. That is why so many people say that it is hard to know what the Bible says. That is why I only read the King James Version, or the New King James Version where they took out the hath, withersoto's and thou's that were used in the first century English and added has, you, me, they ,them and so forth. It does not change the meaning only makes it easier to read.

Re: miketpoto

[QUOTE]I hope you can understand what I mean. Nitpicking the rules is commanded of us in the Bible. It is how the saved will be saved and the damned will be damned.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'll be damned.

Could you spend some time responding like a human being and a little less like Biblebot-2000? Your dialog as it pertains to the clarification for others is so literal minded it pains me to believe that you use any sort of logic other than processing a line of script like a google search, and not filtering out the accompanying disrespect slash fucking bullshit responses like the one mentioned above.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=miketpoto]Well, I'll be damned.

Could you spend some time responding like a human being and a little less like Biblebot-2000? Your dialog as it pertains to the clarification for others is so literal minded it pains me to believe that you use any sort of logic other than processing a line of script like a google search, and not filtering out the accompanying disrespect slash fucking bullshit responses like the one mentioned above.[/quote]

Well try this one.

The reason why I said "I hope you can understand what I mean" is because after reading the post a couple of times I started doubting I was putting it across clearly. I was doubting my ability to communicate it.

It had nothing to do with anyone else or anyone else's ability to understand it but my comminucation skills.

Is that any clarification on this?

Re: miketpoto

For clarification:

  You are insulting and ignorant for referring to those who dont believe what you do as Damned and headed towards destruction.

  You appear to have the thought process of a robot with very limited programming, and I have seen no evidence of your thinking for yourself nor responding to any posts or portions of posts that dont have a reference from your favorite translation of the bible that works best for you.

Re: miketpoto

[quote=miketpoto]For clarification:

You are insulting and ignorant for referring to those who dont believe what you do as Damned and headed towards destruction.

You appear to have the thought process of a robot with very limited programming, and I have seen no evidence of your thinking for yourself nor responding to any posts or portions of posts that dont have a reference from your favorite translation of the bible that works best for you.[/quote]

Well half this thread is about the Bible, why wouldnt I use it to talk about it? As far as being a robot I am not sure where that comes from. I have thought all this out and responded as needed when needed and how I thought I should respond. If thinking all this into existence by typing it on this page makes me a robot then so be it. I have given all my posts much thought. Just because I refer to the Bible does not make my thought not my own. I am answering the Biblical questions with Biblical answers.

I am not saying anyone is damned, as I said I am just a man and can damn none. I am only putting up here what the Bible says. You are right though when you say that I am using the Bible for my basis.

Re: miketpoto

^ you're damned

judge lest ye not be judged

Re: miketpoto

I never said not to talk about the bible, and I never thought for a second that you had the power of damnation. You do however have the power of selective reading comprehension. as I said before, you arent addressing anything that you have thought up for yourself, and yes actually, when you refer to the bible it makes the thought exactly NOT YOUR OWN. just because you are thinking of how to paraphrase the words you hide behind/believe in, doesn't mean that you are creating or bringing anything into existence.

I am not blaming you for this, but I dont even know what your name is..... But that sort of anonymity is a reflection of how alienating you appear to me to be from the rest of the human race. I just can't comprehend in the least how anyone would want salvation in a place or with a God as petty, chauvinistic, unloving, and as prone to mood swings as the one you describe. For someone with a past like you have described, I have to think you must have met some if not many people on your path in life who you care a great deal about, who are also people you probably have a hard time pictuing being deserving of eternal damnation. how few of the many that you know will make it past this impossible ideal of true Christianity? How can you have ever been on a dancefloor and felt what EDM is or can be all about, and be so cut off or blind as to what beauty truly can be?

What do you have to say about Joseph Smith and anyone else for that matter who has interpreted the holy spirit into texts to be shared and teach others how to reach his true vision and obtain glory? You arent responding to those sort of questions, and they fit the description you have given as to how the bible, even the best bible is the word of the lord.

I have to leave work now to go meet a friend, Lucas who posted on this thread earlier on actually, so I will not be able to respond for a while. just an fyi....