fucking bastards. I swear the "F" in "F1" stands for Ferrari. Because they aint kiddin' nobody. Perfectly legal pass, and the stewards strip him of his win....get this...hours after the race is over. WTF?

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

helkl no\

he cut the chicane!!!

you cant cheat for advantage. he ghot the penalty. if kimi had cut the corner, it would be the same thing./

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=thesightless;646258]helkl no\

he cut the chicane!!!

you cant cheat for advantage. he ghot the penalty. if kimi had cut the corner, it would be the same thing./[/quote]

Hamilton was completely right. He hands the position back, goes round the back of Raikkonen and overtakes him again. Completely legal. And dont' forget, the penalty didn't come until hours after the race.....not like..when it was obvious.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0xiGkc1yBY[/youtube]

if Hamilton had not avoided an accident by running across the escape lane then he would have been found guilty of 'Failing to avoid an avoidable accident'.

really sick and tired of Ferrari International Affairs right now....

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

as a massa fan i will say too bad. hamilton never truly gave it back, but stayed on his ass and kept pushing while kimi recovered the turn

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

hamilton never truly gave it back? his speed at the line was 6kmh slower. anyways, i like massa, but to take this away on such strongly subjective grounds, wiht such a great penalty of time, and giving massa the win despite him being back 14 seconds...is a bit obvious.

btw, BMW Sauber is having an amazing year

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

this was truly one of the best f1 races I've seen in ages, but I have to say that Kimi cut down Hamiltons line into the turn, he was forced off course, he backed out letting Kimi retake the lead, there is no clear definition as to how much space needs to be given in this situation. Hamilton clearly won the race, Kimi got careless on a slippery track, Hamilton feathered the car home to take the win, f1 is adjusting the rules on the fly, there's no way Hamilton or McLaren will win the championship if the f1 governing body gets their way.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

re-watching the US coverage.... they said that hamilton hopped right into kimi's slipstream too early. at least that's what matchett said.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

last 3 laps were fucking intense... hopefully this is still on my DVR when i get home cause i gotta watch that again, pure priceless of an ending. wow.

and yea, while watching that, i thought he gave it back, albeit for a split second, but he did give it back.

was totally heartbroken to see Raikkonnen hit it into the wall, shitty ending for him.

as for BMW-Sauber, they have always been my favorite team, love that Kubica. Hopefully they keep getting better to be a real contender in future years.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

imo rule is a rule. they have the option of not enforcing it, but if they do, there is a non-dispute...

same with the byu-washington game on saturday. the qb was called for celebration for tossing the ball in the air. the rule is clear on that.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=thesightless;646678]re-watching the US coverage.... they said that hamilton hopped right into kimi's slipstream too early. at least that's what matchett said.[/quote]

uh hi. here's Schumi not getting penalized. Why? look at the colour of his car.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM[/YOUTUBE]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=88Mariner;647040]uh hi. here's Schumi not getting penalized. Why? look at the colour of his car.

[youtube]-5UnPeyzcHM[/youtube][/quote]

Very hypicritical to give that and not hamilton. Defo right about the colour of the car.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=88Mariner;647040]uh hi. here's Schumi not getting penalized. Why? look at the colour of his car.

[youtube]-5UnPeyzcHM[/youtube][/quote]

well they could have added 25 seconds to his race time... but wouldnt you agree that having stewards spend their time giving schumi a penalty would have been an utter waste when [B]he didnt even finish the race[/B]!

ffs hamilton obviously passed kimi becuase he cut the chicane... no question about it if he had of waited until AFTER la source (first corner) to pass him then it would have been ok... although then he probably wouldnt have been able to pass becuase his advantage from cutting the corner would have been lost.

d.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=ddr;646741]last 3 laps were fucking intense... hopefully this is still on my DVR when i get home cause i gotta watch that again, pure priceless of an ending. wow.

and yea, while watching that, i thought he gave it back, albeit for a split second, but he did give it back.

[/quote]

The stewards have, for the second year running, directly influenced the championship with their selective handing out of punishments.

Last week, when Ferrari clearly acted in an unsafe way, they got nothing more than a fine, when the proscribed punishment should have been, at minimum, a drive through penalty - whilst this week Hamilton gets penalised for, effectively, not crashing out after Kimi forced him off the line,

It does seem, as each year progresses, that indeed the F in FIA does stand for Ferrari.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

check this out frm f1.com:

[B]McLaren’s statement in full:[/B] Martin Whitmarsh said: "Following our decision to register our intention to appeal the penalty handed out to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA Stewards at the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix, we hereby confirm that we have now lodged notice of appeal. Lewis describes the incident as follows."

Lewis Hamilton said: "In the closing stages of the race I was catching Kimi (Raikkonen) consistently, lap by lap, and with three laps remaining I got close enough to attempt to overtake him on the entry to the last chicane. I managed to get slightly ahead of him in the braking area for the first apex of the chicane. He fought back approaching the second apex - but, in doing so, he left no room for me on the inside line. The only way for me to avoid a collision was therefore to cut inside the second apex.

"I came out of the second apex in front of Kimi and so I momentarily lifted-off on the straight, to ensure that Kimi got back in front. The team also came on the radio and instructed me to allow Kimi to repass, which I had already done. As a result, Kimi crossed the start/finish line ahead of me and 6.7km/h quicker than me.

"After allowing Kimi to completely repass, I crossed from the left side of the track to the right side of the track, passing behind Kimi in the process. I then attacked Kimi on the inside of the first corner, and successfully outbraked him."

Martin Whitmarsh added: "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'okay'.

"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

lewis, trhere is a way to not crash at the 2nd apex, its called braking. he beat you to the apex, you went off. if it were a wall, like CART has in its races, you would have braked

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Here's one question that holds the key to the whole appeal...

[COLOR=Red][B]If Hamilton had not cut the last chicane, would he have still been in a position to pass Raikkonen at the end of the main straight and therefore take the lead?[/B][/COLOR]

I think its pretty obvious that the answer to that question is [COLOR=Red]no[/COLOR].

I also agree that Massa should have had a penalty in Valencia - ensuring that the precedents that they have set by giving penalties to other drivers/teams for doing the same thing hold true, however these are two different situations. One was the teams fault, the other was the drivers fault.

d.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

he got the goahead from race control! checked and rechecked!

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=88Mariner;647544]he got the goahead from race control! checked and rechecked![/quote]

Yes, you are correct they did ask race control. McLaren asked Charlie Whiting (race control) twice whether he thought Lewis Hamilton had gained advantage by cutting the chicane. He told them that all he can offer is his opinion as ultimately it is down to the Stewards whether or not he gets penalised. Whiting told McLaren that in his opinion they were safe. Turns out McLaren shouldn't have trusted Whitings judgement as he was obviously wrong.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

This analysis from itv-f1.com

[quote][B]There’s only big story after the Belgian Grand Prix – and sadly it’s not the incredibly dramatic race with its sensational climax, but the stewards’ decision to strip Lewis Hamilton of victory and the controversy it has provoked.[/B] [B] In his latest feature for [I]itv.com/f1[/I], Mark Hughes addresses the question of whether Hamilton gained an unfair advantage with a detailed analysis of the incident at the Bus Stop chicane; and then considers the repercussions for Formula 1’s credibility given the highly charged political backdrop to the decision.[/B]

[B][COLOR=#ff0000]The sporting question[/COLOR][/B] Lewis Hamilton was pushed out across the Spa chicane escape road by Kimi Raikkonen, rejoined ahead, backed off to allow Kimi to repass as required by the rules, went round the back of him and overtook him again. It seemed very clear-cut.

But if you were a lawyer tasked with pushing Ferrari’s case, looking for any bit of legal daylight in which to create doubt, you would question whether Lewis would have been close enough to do that move if he'd not missed the chicane, regardless of the reason why he missed it.

It’s actually a ‘what if’ question to which there can be no answer.

To compare the two scenarios – what happened, with what would have happened had Hamilton not missed the chicane – is impossible.

At this stage of the race the McLaren had vastly more grip than the Ferrari because of the way the red car loses dry tyre temperature far more quickly and totally than the McLaren in wet conditions.

So, had Lewis tucked in behind the Ferrari through the chicane, he’d have accelerated out of there far faster because of his vastly superior traction.

He would have crossed the start/finish line going faster than the Ferrari and therefore have been perfectly placed to have made full use of his vastly superior braking grip to make an outbraking move into La Source.

As it was, he crossed the start/finish line alongside the Ferrari but travelling 6km/h slower, as he was in the process of allowing Kimi by.

Which of those two scenarios would have made for a more advantageous situation for Lewis – alongside but going slower or partly behind but going faster – is impossible to judge.

Exactly how [I]much[/I] more tyre grip did he have? Which way would it have led Kimi to move? Impossible to determine.

Which leaves us with the question: If it’s impossible to judge (which it was) then why the hell make a judgement?

[B][COLOR=#ff0000]The political question[/COLOR][/B]

Regardless of what the reasoning was as to why the stewards tasked themselves with trying to judge an impossible question, getting involved was always going to result in a widespread perception of championship manipulation – which is disastrous for the credibility of the sport.

This was not an argument over seventh place between a Renault and a Toyota, but a magnificent sporting scrap between two of the three contenders for the world championship.

It was a stunningly tense and exciting duel between two of the best drivers in the world in the two best cars, fighting out the destiny of a race – and possibly a world title – into the last couple of laps on perhaps the sport’s greatest circuit.

As an advertisement for F1 – after the tainted 2007 season, after the deadly dull Valencia race just two weeks ago – it came at a perfect moment too.

Those last three laps were among the greatest sporting moments in the sport’s history.

And with a quick bit of bureaucratic interference, all that goodwill was wiped away, turned instead into ridicule and distrust from the public.

At best it has made F1 look stupid. At worst it has triggered suspicion in some, deepened it in others.

Two weeks earlier Ferrari’s Felipe Massa, the third title contender, was released in the pit lane in what was adjudged to be a dangerous manner.

Personally I was relieved when he was not given a drive-through penalty, because that would have been interfering with the outcome of the world championship at a crucial stage over an arcane point of interpretation.

Yes, the decision played into the hands of those who believe there is Ferrari favouritism.

But to have interfered in the outcome of a crucial race just to prove that suspicion unfounded would have been wrong.

Given that backdrop, the Spa incident absolutely invited the race stewards not to get involved when the tables were turned.

And they failed to take that opportunity, thereby fuelling the perception – accurate or not – of the championship being rigged in Ferrari’s favour.

At best, it was an incredibly stupid time to come down in favour of one title contender over another.[/quote]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

That's an interesting article. I don't know if you guys watch the ITV coverage but after putting up with ITV's constant bias towards Lewis Hamilton (James Allen sounds like he wants to have Hamilton's babies) I don't think itv-f1.com is the best place for impartial coverage of this issue.

The big flaw in that article is the question "did he gain any advantage by cutting the chicane?". The writer of the article seems to think that we need to know what would have happened if he didn't cut the chicane. We don't. All that we need to look at is the facts. At the point where Hamilton left the chicane, he had two options - either cut the chicane or lift off and ruin his run down the next straight (due to a tighter line into the next corner). Hamilton cut the chicane, which meant that after conceding the place to Raikkonen he was still right on his gearbox and in a position to make a move into La Source.

The decision the stewards made in this case was correct, just unfortunately the decision the stewards made in Valencia was incorrect. They should have either penalised them both, or not penalised either of them. Having one penalised and the other not unfortunately reeks of favoritism which is definitely not what F1 needs at all.

d.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

I just have to say that an F1 driver, like Hamilton, if he wants to be respected, should pay attention on red lights in pits. If you go through red light on street, you are out for good. Additionally, he is driving reckless through the season, pushing other drivers out of their cornering lines. I am totally upset, as how can other drivers even tolerate that. Everyone is taking care of their cars, turning away from H, and he is driving like he is alone out there.

In my opinion, this was the penalty for McLaren/Hamilton's arrogant behavior throughout the season, in short, i dont like the idea of H winning the Championship, he is too young, let him sell his collections with signatures, he is good in that.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

^ i'll agree with you on the red lights. shiiiiiiit. ease up man!

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=FlashLight;648372]I just have to say that an F1 driver, like Hamilton, if he wants to be respected, should pay attention on red lights in pits. If you go through red light on street, you are out for good. Additionally, he is driving reckless through the season, pushing other drivers out of their cornering lines. I am totally upset, as how can other drivers even tolerate that. Everyone is taking care of their cars, turning away from H, and he is driving like he is alone out there.

In my opinion, this was the penalty for McLaren/Hamilton's arrogant behavior throughout the season, in short, i dont like the idea of H winning the Championship, he is too young, let him sell his collections with signatures, he is good in that.[/quote]

amen, and wait till next year with the rule changes,

one thing though, its f1... their rules on limiting are shite. they should allow the following -slicks turbo 12 cylinders traction control unchecked aero 22K RPM like nigel had on the lotus no tire regulations using both molds

stop limiting development its almost like they are stepping backwards from the advances of the late 90's and early 2000's

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

^ i read they're removing the tire requirements next year. should be interesting. I agree that limitations really hurt the sport. Evolution of cars and strong competition always produce the best races.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=88Mariner;648860]^ i read they're removing the tire requirements next year. should be interesting. I agree that limitations really hurt the sport. Evolution of cars and strong competition always produce the best races.[/quote]

limiting the power of the cars is what Nascar does best.

we CERTAINLY do not want F1 to turn into nascar... for the love of god.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Canceling the limitations would hurt teams which are not Ferari, McLaren or maybe even BMW. They wouldnt have any chance against hi-tech machines.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

yes, if you want limited cars, and not nascar, go watch the re-unified Indy/CART races... they have the principles of nascar (equal engines and body frames) but applies to the REAL RACING CARS, NOT A BUNCH OF INBRED, CLOSET HOMO REDNECKS.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Any comments about today?

I think that S. Vettel deserved that win, and mister H. was doing his thing again, tried to push out at least 2 other drivers.

I am personally going to smack that Raikonnen, he has to wake up.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Excellent race today, and brilliant result for Vettel; Raikonnen has, effectively, given up on the season and and has accepted the role as Massa's bitch :twisted:

As for Lewis, I have no idea what your gripe is against him Flashlight, but the race i saw proved that Hamilton is a far superior driver than his title rivals. Were you a Schumacher fan by any chance?

Personally I am eagerly awaiting the next race, as anything can happen, and then bring on 2009. My tip next year - Button in the Honda. . . . . . . well, a boy can dream cant he!

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=88Mariner;647544]he got the goahead from race control! checked and rechecked![/quote]

Yeah so Ron Dennis says, but there is no way that could of happened in the time scale of Hamilton leaving the track and overtaking Raikkonen. Your talking 5 seconds maximum. Ron Dennis is talking out of his arse. But this does come from the team that spy-ed on Ferrari. If i was Raikkonen Hamilton wouldn't of finished the race today

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[quote=chunky;649754]Yeah so Ron Dennis says, but there is no way that could of happened in the time scale of Hamilton leaving the track and overtaking Raikkonen. Your talking 5 seconds maximum. Ron Dennis is talking out of his arse. But this does come from the team that spy-ed on Ferrari. If i was Raikkonen Hamilton wouldn't of finished the race today[/quote]

i think it was that they conferred after it happened. the point of the rule, i believe (and correct me if i'm wrong) is to prevent advantages from being fenegled through such maneuvering. i read it as they conferred with the judges right afterwards, and they said it looked clean, so even if Hamilton had raced ahead, and the judges had said he took the advantage, i'm sure he would have given the spot up and given the advantage back to Kimi.

Interesting though, should be a little while before the ruling comes out. but we know that the rule is quite subjective and can be construed in anyway. I have a feeling it will bite them in the ass; if not now, then in the future when the same thing happens and they rule in a different way.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

In the interview Ron Dennis said he told Hamilton on the radio that he had to let Raikkonen through, which Hamilton did. This only happened once in the race and there is no way that conversation happened in 7 seconds

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

in the Manza race yesterday, Hamilton passed Massa and one of the Speed Channel commentators said, "whelp, you better give hamilton a black flag for that"

haha, i love the speed commentators :)

watched the qualifying and was laughing my ass off when the top 2 drivers waited until the last minute of Q2 to head out, meanwhile the rain was worsening, and they couldnt get out of the kockout range. rofl.

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Even as a kid, i was allways the Ferrari fan, not drivers. I have to say that Hamilton is very skilled, but he is risking too much, putting others in dangerous situations, like he doesnt care what happens to them. Imagine that, after he almost pushed one car out of the road, dont really remember which, just so he can get perfect line, that poor guy accidentally lost grip, and banged into a wall or something. With speed like that, it wouldnt be nice.

Other drivers are aware of that, but watching H. drive, it is clear that he only thinks about winning, and nothing else, no safety. And that is Ron Dennis' fault.