[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=res0nat0r;929783]I am glad my joke pissed you off this much.
Great success.[/QUOTE]
mate i am high as a kite...you ain't got nothing on me
[IMG]http://content.hollywire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/travisweed.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=88Mariner;929792]What i find most hilarious about that site is that
yesterday, Shpira cuts and pastes from Wikipedia what he thought were direct quotes from Ron Paul, but in actuality were from Lew Rockwell who has, in fact, admitted responsibility for them.
And strangely enough, he wants us to believe this racist scumbag for what 'fascism' entails. (see website)
bra-fucking-vo
also amusing: jason raimondo's name on that page.[/QUOTE]
Lol i don't pretend to know Ron Paul...hence the wikipedia search...but thought it worth a mention. Didn't realize anyone is on trial here.
and i think you mean Justin Raimondo
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
upon review...i disagree lol
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=res0nat0r;929789]I just did. [/QUOTE]
No you didn't. I can ask again if you want!
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=chunky;929807]No you didn't. I can ask angain if you want![/QUOTE]
oh
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
The United States is about as fascist as dissing Obama is racist.
If you want fascism, revisit the FDR era when he reigned for 12 years and a month.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
diverting
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
FDR was a dictator but the US wasn't fascist.. Again Fascism is the merger of State and Corporate Powers.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=runningman;929819]FDR was a dictator but the US wasn't fascist.. Again Fascism is the merger of State and Corporate Powers.[/QUOTE]
no of course corporations were not melded into the arms production at that time. of course there was no heightened degree of nationalism.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
yeah but he supported the labour movement more than the industrialists...he was more socialist in his approach than fascist.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
agreed.. What we have now is a Fascist Kakistocrasy
Wisconsin is brewing, ripe with anger.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
what is scary about this is that it is Wisconsin.. they are white people that don't fuck around. when white people get pissed people die
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE]Also changed would be mandatory union fees extracted from workers. Union leadership currently uses these funds to back political candidates who do their bidding. That usually means candidates with a [B]distinctly leftist outlook.[/B] [/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.examiner.com/ocean-county-conservative-in-newark/wisconsin-unrest-will-impact-nj-and-other-states#ixzz1EKPGRqSe[/url]
So its bad that they lobby...hmmm..funny how that one works.
LOL fucking joke
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
The very nature of many public services — such as policing the streets and putting out fires — gives government a monopoly or near monopoly; striking public employees could therefore hold the public hostage. As long-time [I]New York Times[/I] labor reporter A. H. Raskin wrote in 1968: "The community cannot tolerate the notion that it is defenseless at the hands of organized workers to whom it has entrusted responsibility for essential services. You can argue, even validly, that private sector unions are acceptable. But there is no valid argument that public sector employes should ever have monopoly power against state citizens.
To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.
Right now, the taxpayers are literally, LITERALLY, paying these teachers to abstain from their duties and protest a terribly necessary move to reign in the very [i]serious[/i] financial woes of that state.
Indeed, like New Jersey, if they can't pass this bill, 10-12,000 public positions will be terminated. You can't pay for what you can't afford. Either they accept the fact that they can't extort money on account of their monopoly power, or they get tossed to the streets.
Hell, I think the most responsible thing to do here is hunt down all the teachers who called in 'sick' but were out protesting, and give them the pink slip first. These teachers, more than others, deserve the boot.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.
If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now. Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=Shpira;930077]I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.
If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now. Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.[/QUOTE]
How hilarious.
Let me help you:
FDR, an ally of private-sector unionism, stood [I]against[/I] unions for government workers - in fact he said as much in 1937: "the process of collective bargaining . . .cannot be transplanted into public service."
You know WHY he believed this: Because, a public employee strike "manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable." And FDR was not the sole leftie who embraced such sentiments.
And the funny thing about your quip about firemen and policemen: they TOO have such power! What do you think happened with the airtraffic controllers who walked out? This is not going to extremes - it's going to the very heart of the matter!
And here - the unions are supporting the teachers LEAVING their jobs. Would you NOT call that criminal? Oh it might not be 'vital' but then, who are you to say that any government employee can merely walk out? Would it be acceptable for state senators and congressmen to form a union and HOLDOUT until they all got to increase their pay whenever they want? Because that's not much different than what's happening here. The teachers unions are actually saying, "we have a right to demand whatever we want, we have a right that our demands are actually met, and if they are not met, we hold the right to walk out of our jobs whenever we choose."
So here we return to your teleological difficulties. "It'll work! trust me! I can envision it! disregard what's actually going on....be pure to the theory!"
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
Mate I said it once...and I say it again. Issues.
have fun ;)
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=Shpira;930079]Mate I said it once...and I say it again. Issues.
have fun ;)[/QUOTE]
Indeed. It's all about the issues. And the facts, which you continue to ignore. And, not surprisingly, Obama has taken the same route: defending government employees for being able to hold monopoly power against the taxpayers.
If that's not a sign of pure idiocy on Obama's behalf, I don't know what else would so clearly and transparently qualify.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
so...why would anyone want to be a teacher lets say? You sacrifice your life in essence to get the necessary degrees to become a teacher and then you work for a non negotiable salary?? Why would ANYONE want to be a policeman, fireman, teacher etc...How would you be able to guarantee that you have a high quality of employees? (not that they do that now) It makes little sense...and I don't think i have ever heard of any union going against popular support i.e. if the public opinion is not with them they usually don't strike or take action.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=Shpira;930082]so...why would anyone want to be a teacher lets say? You sacrifice your life in essence to get the necessary degrees to become a teacher and then you work for a non negotiable salary?? Why would ANYONE want to be a policeman, fireman, teacher etc...How would you be able to guarantee that you have a high quality of employees? (not that they do that now) It makes little sense...and I don't think i have ever heard of any union going against popular support i.e. if the public opinion is not with them they usually don't strike or take action.[/QUOTE]
Why? To help children who can't read good and wanna learn to do other stuff good too.
Is there much negotiation in public sector work? As far as I can tell, there is very very little room for negotiations. Why? Because salaries are based on scales and bands. They are keyed to work experience, education level, specialty, and the type of position applied for.
And even then, why would it take the monopoly on government services to be able to negotiate higher salaries? Are non-union employees incapable of negotiating raises anywhere else in the economy?
It's funny you mention the quality of teachers.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
Who wouldnt' want to be a teacher.. $75,000 for working 9 months of the year with summers off..
I would have the teachers out picking litter in the local communities the other 3 months to set a good example.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
most teachers in public highschool/middle schools make no where near 75k/year i know for a fact.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=Shpira;930077]I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.
If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now. Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.[/QUOTE]
if it makes any difference, the bill exempts police, firefighters and state troopers. now do you support it?
(no)
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
in canada they do. My sister is an elementary teacher and she is making around $70,000 right now.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
^ average teacher salary in madison wisconsin is up around 85-90k. holy shiat.
i'm sur it's probably slightly lower (70-80) round the state. that's amazing for 9 months of work imo
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
so ....
uh......
when is the national guard being sent in? too early to ask this?
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[url]http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary[/url]
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=Shpira;930235][url]http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary[/url][/QUOTE]
In Wisconsin it's $52,000+ on average for 9 months of work, NOT including all benefits.
Wisconsin Unions don't seem to understand that their demand for the redistribution of wealth is actually being met here! The wealthy should share with the poor. When times get tough, they should also share the loss in wealth.
That's how it works, right?
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
The states and the country are on a path to bankruptcy. Large entitlements have to go or we are all are going to crash and burn.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=Shpira;930077]I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.
If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now. Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
We have the police, nurses, teachers protesting and striking or threatening to, whenever agreements are up for renewel. It's an expected event and also supported by millions. Essential services are never compromised or even threatened whilst negotiations are being had.
The Liberal Party in Australia were leading the push for restrictions on collective bargaining through the Unions. But gave all their support for individual workplace agreements instead. (when an employee "negotiates" their terms of their pay, work, conditions with the boss, one on one)
Aussie workers, families understood all too well what these changes really meant and as predicted, the Liberal Party were thrown out of power come election time.
Power to the people.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=dig72;930417]Agreed.
We have the police, nurses, teachers protesting and striking or threatening to, whenever agreements are up for renewel. It's an expected event and also supported by millions. Essential services are never compromised or even threatened whilst negotiations are being had.
The Liberal Party in Australia were leading the push for restrictions on collective bargaining through the Unions. But gave all their support for individual workplace agreements instead. (when an employee "negotiates" their terms of their pay, work, conditions with the boss, one on one)
Aussie workers, families understood all too well what these changes really meant and as predicted, the Liberal Party were thrown out of power come election time.
Power to the people.[/QUOTE]
Good teachers deserve pay raises. Lazy teachers do not.
Edit: let me clarify the above statement. Right now, as I understand it, they are stopping collective barganing for [I]benefits[/I]....not wages.
As it stands, their benefits are LUXURIOUS compared to the benefits anyone else in the state receives. It is crack that they're addicted to. So they'll have to overcome their addiction at some point.Going from paying 0.2% of our salary into our pension fund to 5.8%....how oppressive!!!
And if anyone tries to touch it.....they'll all go on strike, and even better, commit fraud against the taxpayers by acquiring fake doctor 'sick' notes (yeah, sick pay is fun when you're not sick!)
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
^Framed in that context, they all deserve pink slips. I don't even HAVE health benefits as a contractor.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=vinnie97;930421]^Framed in that context, they all deserve pink slips. I don't even HAVE health benefits as a contractor.[/QUOTE]
well that's always been the law for like.....ever. And i'm not sure if i could make a good public policy argument that contractors should receive benefits from a contractee.
Those who deserve pink slips? I don't know if any of them really 'deserve' pink slips.
But those teachers who are purposefully frauding their employers? should lose their license.
Same for the docs who are rubber-stamping 'sick' notes.
and anyone who violated Godwin's law - for the simple fact that 1) they fail at history and 2) anyone who so easily commits Godwin do not need to be around children.
speaking of 'thinking about the children', what about saddling them with a future of debt? they'll forget the shit they learn in school, but they'll not forget how their unions fucked them in the wallet.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
I wasn't suggesting that's unlawful, just that I can't imagine how they would ever get by as contractors with their entitlement attitudes. A license removal would be even more effective, yes (though I guess those generally apply statewide).
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE=88Mariner;930420]And if anyone tries to touch it.....they'll all go on strike, and even better, commit fraud against the taxpayers by acquiring fake doctor 'sick' notes (yeah, sick pay is fun when you're not sick!)[/QUOTE]
I've read that the proposal put forward by Walker and his cronies, is to strip public employees of some bargaining rights and cut benefits without negotiation.
Workers have a right to negotiate in good faith with their employers and Walker is simply being a dictator in this case.
If someone was trying to cut my pay or entitlements without negotiations, then I too, would be fighting tooth and nail to stop that from ever happening.
It's not at all complicated and I can easily understand, why tens of thousands of workers have taken to the streets in Wisconsin protesting against these proposals.
If the states want to save money, cut spending then fine, but there are other ways to do it. What you don't do is cut the pay or entitlements of workers who are already doing it tough.
Citizens will put up with a hell of aloooooooooooooooot of shit, that their leaders dish out to them and will continue to do so without much resistance. But if ever their wallets are threatened, then you can rest assured that all hell will break lose. And what this also demonstrates is how hopelessly enslaved many people are. An unhealthy society will be the result.
Walker and his cronies will eventually have to back down, they don't have a choice in the matter. The workers will come out the winners in this case but they will have to remain highly vigilant. The scumbags will be at it again, that's for sure.
Power to the people.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[QUOTE]The scumbags will be at it again, that's for sure.[/QUOTE]
this
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
They are enriched beyond that of the private sector. Subsequently, the REST of the citizens (the taxpayers) don't have much sympathy for their crybaby antics. Walker can go on with his bad self. He is doing what he was ELECTED to do much to the chagrin of the parasitic teacher unions.
Watch the documentary "Waiting For Superman" to see how this group puts their own ass ahead of children's education.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
^heh i just watched the first half of that doc last night, need to finish it. it is terrible the shit the teachers union gets away with and their 3 year avg 'detention'. i havent seen the rest of the flick, but i know michelle rhee resigned her post a few months ago, too bad as firing a bunch of lazy asses was a good start.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
^We finally agree on something. ;-)
O'Commie is directly stirring the spot with his "Organizing for America" campaign because he loves class warfare. That hideous NEA bitch on "Waiting For Superman" was handpicked by him as well.
Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US
[video=youtube;DQj-xBH30-I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQj-xBH30-I[/video]
I'm sure Shpira will eat up this speech...anybody in their right mind should be repulsed.