then what the fuck was WW2 about?????? the world didnt like the way hitler looked? JEEEEEZ. stupid politicians at thier best. :roll:

Re: ok, sharon was just plain stupid.

Although I might concur with the title of this thread (about Sharon being stupid!), it might be useful to post what he actually said.

[i]Taken from Haaretz.[/i] [url]http://www.haaretz.com[/url]

[b]Sharon: World didn't lift a finger to stop the Holocaust
By The Associated Press [/b] In a speech marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Wednesday that the world "didn't lift a finger" to stop the Holocaust. Sharon said Jews learned a lesson from the genocide that they can only rely on themselves.

In unusually harsh remarks to parliament, the prime minister noted that when the Nazis began deporting Jews from Hungary to Auschwitz in large numbers in 1944, Allied forces did not bomb the railroad tracks leading to the death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland.

Even 60 years after Auschwitz was liberated, anti-Semitism still exists throughout the world, Sharon said, adding that the image of a Jewish people that defends itself is "anathema" to the "new anti-Semites."

"Legitimate steps of self-defense which Israel takes in its war against Palestinian terror actions which any sovereign state is obligated to undertake to ensure the security of its citizens are presented by those who hate Israel as aggressive, Nazi-like steps."

Sharon said that over a period of several weeks, more than 600,000 Jews from Hungary were killed in Auschwitz.

"The sad and terrible conclusion is that no one cared that Jews were being killed," Sharon said.

"At the time of the most terrible test, friends and benefactors didn't lift a finger," he said. "This is the Jewish lesson of the Holocaust."

"The State of Israel has learned this lesson, and since its founding, it has defended itself and its residents, and provides safety to Jews everywhere. We know that we can only rely on ourselves," he said.

For this reason, Israel as the Jewish state must always remain strong, Sharon said.

"We must always remember that this is the only place in the world in which we, the Jews, have the right and the power to defend ourselves with our own strength," Sharon said. "This we will never surrender."

this is my boss writing this right now, well me typing, him talking. he felt like replying. (btw a 72 german jewish man)im catholic.

as sad as it is, certain, not all, people need to stop crying about anti semetism in the sense that it is a world wide problem like disease. people will always hate other people. its a right to hate whoever you want, we just need to punish those who act on that hate. :? :evil:

the term, at least in america(more specifically, here in NYC) is used so much in the "poor me" sense of the word. it comes off like the people who use it feel like they demand that everyone love them. that however is not the case. the more the idea of anti semitisism is used, the more hate it genereates in those who truly dislike the jewish culture. ---

thanks for posting that dave was wondering what the hell he was talking about.

sightless, I was gonna actually respond to your idiotic statement but since you chose to raise it to yet another ridiculous degree, no comment is necessary. Enjoy your hating self.

I assume your latter comments arent aimed at me rubyraks :wink:

[quote=davetlv]I assume your latter comments arent aimed at me rubyraks :wink:[/quote] hell no!

no me, but i dont hate jews, hell i almost asked one to marry me.

my boss was talking about the poor me attitude that comes off the over use of the term by too many people. i can see where he comes from.

Ruby...I seriously don't understand that remark of yours: Okay, the thread name is a bit harsh maybe, but other than that... :?:

im not understanding it either?

its just my boss's opinion that the anti semetic feelings people harbor today shouldnt be used to say that the world didnt care about jews and the terrible events of that period in europe. i dont know anymore. :|

Re: ok, sharon was just plain stupid.

Sharons comments make some sense, especially considering that 60 years after the liberation of Auschwitz anti-semitism is growing in europe again.

This is an article from Sundays Haaretz.

[b]Israel charts Anti-Semitism rise in Russia, Britain
By Reuters [/b]

A government report expressed alarm on Sunday at what it said were sharp rises in violent anti-Semitism in Russia and Britain over the past year, but noted France had made inroads fighting the phenomenon. Figures from Israel's Global Forum Against Anti-Semitism showed the number of violent anti-Semitic incidents held steady at 96 in world-leader France in 2004, but rose from 55 to 77 in second-place Britain and from 4 to 55 in Russia, third on the list.

The group, under the auspices of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office and the Jewish Agency, said it received reports from local Jewish communities of 282 attacks against Jews and Jewish institutions in 2004 compared with 234 in 2003.

"The greatest number of events and the most severe attacks occur in Europe," the report said, listing three incidents last year of violent anti-Semitism in the United States, which has the largest Jewish community outside Israel.

Commenting on anti-Semitism in Russia and Ukraine, where physical attacks against Jews and their institutions rose from 15 in 2003 to 44 last year, the report said the governmental response to a "disturbing situation" was "woefully insufficient."

It said the steep rise in anti-Semitism in Britain was "alarming," with much of the desecration of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries carried out by Islamists.

"A central cause: years of hostile reporting and commentary about Israel in the British press now is spilling over into the street," the report said in apparent reference to coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Jewish community leaders in Britain, where around 265,000 Jews live, said in public comments on Wednesday anti-Semitic attacks in the country were increasing substantially.

British police said there had been at least eight racist attacks in the last two months on Jewish men in the Stamford Hill area of north London, which has a large Jewish community.

The British reports came a week after Prince Harry, third in line to the British throne, caused global outrage after he was pictured at a costume party wearing a Nazi uniform with a swastika.

He apologized, but Jewish groups said he should visit the Auschwitz death camp for ceremonies this year marking the 60th anniversary of its liberation.

In its report, the Global Forum said that since mid-2004 anti-Semitic expressions in France, where some 600,000 Jews live, had declined somewhat.

"Over the past year, French authorities have invested significant effort in fighting, and educating against, anti-Semitism," the document said.

I'll explain. sightless, presuming davetlv's quote is what you were responding to, you call Sharon stupid for saying things like "the world didn't didn't lift a finger" to stop the holocaust. And you're defense of this is suggestive that WWII was about that. That's idiotic. First of all, at the start they knew nothing of the concentration camps...hell, even the Jews didn't believe the stories. Yet there was a war. Second, throughout the war innumerable countries rejected Jewish refugees. And thirdly, many countries viewed the camps as a strategic diversion of hitler's attention and resources away from the battlefield and they concentrated their efforts on the war. And I'm not even getting into the main point of the war which was that Hitler was intent on taking control of all of Europe...reason enough to fight him.

The Jews being rescued from the camps was almost an afterthought of the war, not the point of.

There will always be fruitcakes who either believe what Hitler said, or still can't get over the fact that 'the Jews killed Christ'.

Too bad...people should start looking at each others merits, characters, acts and so on instead of cultural heritage or color. you can be man, woman, gay, lesbo, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Fetishist, black, white, yellow, red, green, orange, be ugly or really hot or called Forrest Gump: If you're nice to me and respect me, I'll do the same to you. Period.

[Just make sure you don't have smelly feet, bad breath or fart/belch in public.]

[quote=rubyraks]I'll explain. sightless, presuming davetlv's quote is what you were responding to, you call Sharon stupid for saying things like "the world didn't didn't lift a finger" to stop the holocaust. And you're defense of this is suggestive that WWII was about that. That's idiotic. First of all, at the start they knew nothing of the concentration camps...hell, even the Jews didn't believe the stories. Yet there was a war. Second, throughout the war innumerable countries rejected Jewish refugees. And thirdly, many countries viewed the camps as a strategic diversion of hitler's attention and resources away from the battlefield and they concentrated their efforts on the war. And I'm not even getting into the main point of the war which was that Hitler was intent on taking control of all of Europe...reason enough to fight him.

The Jews being rescued from the camps was almost an afterthought of the war, not the point of.[/quote]

You're completely right Ruby, but don't flame him too hard for overseeing that. His irritation about Sharon's statements are genuine, and not totally misplaced: he's saying that the West and America have deliberately ignored the fact that Jews were being killed full-scale, and deliberately omitted to bomb railroads leading to Auschwitz and the encampments themselves, eg: consented with the mass killings. Which is ridiculous I think.

So Sightless: the war was not exclusively on stopping the killing of the Jews, but you're right when you are annoyed by Sharon's statements IMHO. Just don't jump the gun too fast. :wink:

i hear ya, just for sharon to say that was pretty dumb. if the peoples of the world hated the jewish culture that much, isreal wouldn't exist as it does today. also, keep in mind that is one of the only nations that is promoted for exclusive religious purposes. hell, we have too many people going after the middle east b/c of its religious standing.

PS edit

Ira, (the getn who signs my check) told me to think about this:

"appeaseing is not the same as accepting." it took me a minute to think of why he said it. but i get it now. :D we should accept, no one has to appease.

alrighty fair enough....sorry if I offended anyone. I just got mighty upset by the comments without much backing it up, but I better understand your point now.

[quote=thesightless]i hear ya, just for sharon to say that was pretty dumb. if the peoples of the world hated the jewish culture that much, isreal wouldn't exist as it does today. also, keep in mind that is one of the only nations that is promoted for exclusive religious purposes. hell, we have too many people going after the middle east b/c of its religious standing.

PS edit

Ira, (the getn who signs my check) told me to think about this:

"appeaseing is not the same as accepting." it took me a minute to think of why he said it. but i get it now. :D we should accept, no one has to appease.[/quote]

What absolute tosh!

Feel free to call Sharon dumb for many of his comments, but these were the most emotional comments i have heard from the man. Speaking truely from his heart, something politicians fail to do, I finally got a glimpse of what this man is all about. I'm sorry sightless you thought his comments about the world not lifting a finger to help the Jews during the holocaust were dumb, but the comments are true. The world didnt give a f*ck about the camps or the Jews.

And i'm sorry if you are offended or upset by these comments (which clearly you are as you've turned them into a thread) but deal with.

To then go on a sprout more tosh about if the world didnt like jewish culture blah blah blah Israel wouldn't exsist today blah blah blah . . . . one of the many reasons for my country's exsitence is not the fact that the people of the world like the jews its more of the fact that Europe, and the world, was so horrified after the holocaust and riddled with collective guilt over their inactions during the period of 1933-1945 that the creation of a Jewish state was enevitable.

The fact that Israel is a Jewish state is no different than the UK being a Protestant state or Iran being an Islamic state. The reason why people are going after the countries in the middle east isn't because of that countries religion but because of that countries fanatasicsm plain and simple. If you're now saying that basic world policy is against religious states well i'm sure that whole new discussion.

And as for Iras' comments. . . well finally your boss has said something i can agree with!

[quote=davetlv]Feel free to call Sharon dumb for many of his comments, but these were the most emotional comments i have heard from the man. Speaking truely from his heart, something politicians fail to do, I finally got a glimpse of what this man is all about. I'm sorry sightless you thought his comments about the world not lifting a finger to help the Jews during the holocaust were dumb, but the comments are true. The world didnt give a f*ck about the camps or the Jews.[/quote]

The world was more concerned with Hitler trying to run the show. But I regularly see the documentaries on Discovery on WWII (they have some fetish for that war), and it has appeared to me that most of the liberating forces didn't even know about the camps, or at the most only rumours. Most soldiers were astonished to find those camps, crowded with people in horrific circumstances.

[quote=Yao][quote=davetlv]Feel free to call Sharon dumb for many of his comments, but these were the most emotional comments i have heard from the man. Speaking truely from his heart, something politicians fail to do, I finally got a glimpse of what this man is all about. I'm sorry sightless you thought his comments about the world not lifting a finger to help the Jews during the holocaust were dumb, but the comments are true. The world didnt give a f*ck about the camps or the Jews.[/quote]

The world was more concerned with Hitler trying to run the show. But I regularly see the documentaries on Discovery on WWII (they have some fetish for that war), and it has appeared to me that most of the liberating forces didn't even know about the camps, or at the most only rumours. Most soldiers were astonished to find those camps, crowded with people in horrific circumstances.[/quote] [b]HIS[/b]-story

[quote=davetlv][quote=thesightless]i hear ya, just for sharon to say that was pretty dumb. if the peoples of the world hated the jewish culture that much, isreal wouldn't exist as it does today. also, keep in mind that is one of the only nations that is promoted for exclusive religious purposes. hell, we have too many people going after the middle east b/c of its religious standing.

PS edit

Ira, (the getn who signs my check) told me to think about this:

"appeaseing is not the same as accepting." it took me a minute to think of why he said it. but i get it now. :D we should accept, no one has to appease.[/quote]

What absolute tosh!

Feel free to call Sharon dumb for many of his comments, but these were the most emotional comments i have heard from the man. Speaking truely from his heart, something politicians fail to do, I finally got a glimpse of what this man is all about. I'm sorry sightless you thought his comments about the world not lifting a finger to help the Jews during the holocaust were dumb, but the comments are true. The world didnt give a f*ck about the camps or the Jews.

And i'm sorry if you are offended or upset by these comments (which clearly you are as you've turned them into a thread) but deal with.

To then go on a sprout more tosh about if the world didnt like jewish culture blah blah blah Israel wouldn't exsist today blah blah blah . . . . one of the many reasons for my country's exsitence is not the fact that the people of the world like the jews its more of the fact that Europe, and the world, was so horrified after the holocaust and riddled with collective guilt over their inactions during the period of 1933-1945 that the creation of a Jewish state was enevitable.

The fact that Israel is a Jewish state is no different than the UK being a Protestant state or Iran being an Islamic state. The reason why people are going after the countries in the middle east isn't because of that countries religion but because of that countries fanatasicsm plain and simple. If you're now saying that basic world policy is against religious states well i'm sure that whole new discussion.

And as for Iras' comments. . . well finally your boss has said something i can agree with![/quote]

You're goddam right I'm offended by Sharon's comments. Fact is, no one expected to have the holocaust turn into what it was. No one thought it would get as big as it was, otherwise intervention would have come from the start. I'm sure guilt is upon a lot of people, but how do you think the Chinese feel after The Rape of Nanking, which was by far, if not, just as gruesome as the holocaust. Or how about those Japenese led experiments after WW1 on the Chinese people because the Japanese feared a chemical war was soon to come? The "Oh so hard done by" mentality of the jewish sector needs to repeal because it's getting extremely irritating, more so than consistent whining of black people. In retrospect, everyone has had to fend for themselves and jews are no different. And considering how many American lives were lost during WW2, I would suggest that Sharon keep his mouth shut unless he wants to piss off a large amount of veterans and their offspring. We discuss it as history and as a big cluster fuck and hope that it never happens again, not as the blame game in wich fingers have to consistently be pointed at someone.

[quote=Localizer] You're goddam right I'm offended by Sharon's comments. . . . . . The "Oh so hard done by" mentality of the jewish sector needs to repeal because it's getting extremely irritating, more so than consistent whining of black people. In retrospect, everyone has had to fend for themselves and jews are no different. And considering how many American lives were lost during WW2, I would suggest that Sharon keep his mouth shut unless he wants to piss off a large amount of veterans and their offspring. We discuss it as history and as a big cluster fuck and hope that it never happens again, not as the blame game in wich fingers have to consistently be pointed at someone.[/quote]

Sharons' comments were not aimed at GI Joe. . . . the comments were aimed at the political establishment who for the last few years of the war allowed the Nazis to continue with their systematic extermination of the European Jewry. Not only did they do nothing to distrupt the mechanisims of mass murder but more often than not when European Jews managed to flea war torn Europe they were returned to the countries where they came from by the Allies - returned to certain death.

So calm down localizer, Sharon was not pissing of veterens of the war just their masters.

The masters from the war had to recooperate from the losses they had taken as well.

It was extremely stupid for Sharon to have said that. Furthermore, I feel he's embarrased the jewish sector as a whole.

Re: ok, sharon was just plain stupid.

[quote=davetlv] Sharon said Jews learned a lesson from the genocide that they can only rely on themselves. [/quote]

EDIT: and america.

i just think it's funny that we all "accept" israel's establishment, after jews barely escaped genocide, on palestinian land, thereby displacing a whole other people. palestinians are now being ghettoized (yes, it is a word), and you'd think that history would serve as a lesson.

well, i'm hung over and sick so my argument isn't very sound...

i'm reading about early zionism in europe and russia (howard sachar's book), so i'm sure i'll have more to add later.

Re: ok, sharon was just plain stupid.

[quote=face] i just think it's funny that we all "accept" israel's establishment, after jews barely escaped genocide, on palestinian land, thereby displacing a whole other people. palestinians are now being ghettoized (yes, it is a word), and you'd think that history would serve as a lesson.

well, i'm hung over and sick so my argument isn't very sound...

i'm reading about early zionism in europe and russia (howard sachar's book), so i'm sure i'll have more to add later.[/quote] [i] A little of topic but i'll respond anyway![/i]

The displacement of some of the native inhabitants of the land now called Israel was mainly out of self choice. With encouragement from the Mufti and other arab leaders in the region many people fled their homes on the promise that once the jews were 'forced' into the sea then they would return. Hardly something you can blame Israel for.

Also note that there were many arab who stayed within the borders of the state of israel and hold full israeli nationality today.

The ghettoization of Palestinians today does not just occur in the West Bank and Gaza strip; it also occurs in Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria - as well as other arab states.

No country, helped the Palestinians out of the refugee camps set up after 1948; the camps in the neighbouring countries have become defacto townships due to host nations not being prepared to intergrate the Palestinians - something which becomes the norm for refugees.

Finally, please remember that it was not Israel that set up the vast camps in Gaza and the West Bank; it was Egypt and Jordan - all you can realistically accuse Israel of is not treating those Palestinians in now israeli occupied territiories any better than the previous occupiers.

well i'm not accusing israel of anything per se (it did not exist until after all of the aliyahs took place). just pointing out what happened; that is, jews populating the area en masse caused [a series of] events and here we are today.

and i was in no way attempting to avoid blaming the neighboring arab states, especially jordan and egypt. palestinians were not in control of their own agenda until after 1967. nevertheless, doing the exact opposite, thereby absolving [what is now called] israel of any blame, is not "realistic" either.

one could easily say that in all of this tragedy, no one lifted a finger to help the palestinians. they just stood by and watched it all happen. [i wouldn't consider the actions of egypt, syria, jordan (or any other arab state) to have genuinely "helped" the palestinians.

an anolgy from some guy on Imus yesterday was said as

the whole place(talking about middle east) is just a giant pile of gunpower, sooner or later, something is gonna be the match...... :?

Piss on it: it won't burn.

Sorry Dave, didn't mean to piss on your head :mrgreen: Here's a towel.