you know, its gonna come down to this eventually, but too bad this happened... i understand going after military and political figures, but this is horrible. do we actually think that this man was doig anything outside of trying to help?

MOSUL, Iraq (CNN) -- A Catholic archbishop was kidnapped Monday near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, Iraqi officials said.

Basil George Casmoussa, 66, was outside a private residence on a main road in al-Muhendisin, north of Mosul, when he was taken captive at 5:30 p.m. (9:30 a.m. ET), said Kahsro Goran, deputy governor of Nineveh province.

Casmoussa lives in a neighborhood east of Mosul called Qaraqos, Goran said.

A Vatican spokesman told Reuters that the Holy See was aware of the abduction and demanded his immediate release.

Reuters reported that the Vatican called the kidnapping "an act of terrorism."

Iraqi officials told CNN the kidnappers used two cars.

Earlier Monday, insurgents killed at least 14 members of the Iraqi security forces in attacks on checkpoints in two cities.

Near Baquba, north of Baghdad, seven Iraqi army soldiers and one Iraqi civilian were killed at a checkpoint by insurgents traveling in multiple vehicles, Iraqi and U.S. military officials said.

The officials said four other Iraqi soldiers were wounded when they were hit with small-arms fire in the attack in Buhritz, about six miles (10 kilometers) south of Baquba.

At least seven Iraqi police also were killed Monday when a suicide car bomb exploded at the first of three checkpoints in front of an Iraqi police headquarters near the north-central city of Tikrit, a U.S. military spokesman and a local official said.

The official with the Tikrit governorate said 19 other people were hurt in the explosion at the Beiji police headquarters, about 25 miles (40 kilometers) north of Tikrit.

Water pipeline sabotaged Insurgents sabotaged a pipeline that supplies 70 percent of Baghdad's water supply, a U.S. military spokesman said Monday.

The spokesman said that the attackers apparently placed the explosives in a manhole Saturday and blew up a section of the pipeline, which is about 100 feet (30 meters) below ground.

Baghdad has reservoirs with enough water for five days, the spokesman added, but some Baghdad residents already have complained of water shortages.

On Monday, Iraq's Council of Ministries reported that in the past few days in Falluja, west of Baghdad, clashes between the Iraqi army and insurgents resulted in the deaths of 35 "terrorists." Sixty-four others were detained, the council said, and weapons and rockets were confiscated

for some reason this is all the US fault.. :lol:

for some reason this is all the US fault.. :lol:

i would think the whole religious garb would pretty much make you untouchable.....sad, we should go kidnap a muslim cleric now. just to keep up the trends......sad but true (quote of the past 4 months.)

Re: is it now a holy war???? maybe...... scumbags.

on third thought.

what do you think would happen if 20 guys went out and bombed Mecca during the haaj? then claimed it was done on behalf of jesus/yahweh/budda?

or they could say it was done b/c of the oppressive regeims of the middle eastern countries........ :evil: :? :|

your talking about people who use hospitals, churchs and schools for there military bases. they have no clue

Religious or not, innocent is innocent...they're taking on the easy prey now.

thankfully , he has been released. could you imagine if they did a videotaped beheading??? i guess they realized that it would change the whole war if they beheaded a bishop/rabbi.......

the whole world would be coming down on them.

an Arch-Bishop is very high in the Roman Catholic Church.. one below cardinals.. I told you guys months ago that this shit was going to happen.. a holy war is innevitable.. we try very hard for it not to be but they are trying even harder to make it a holy war.. if they kill that arch bishop i say bring back the Crusaders.. enough is enough.. make it a parking lot..

[quote=thesightless]thankfully , he has been released. .[/quote]

:sillyboy:

Use an A-Bomb ffs. :roll:

-Psynce-

[quote=thesightless]thankfully , he has been released. could you imagine if they did a videotaped beheading??? i guess they realized that it would change the whole war if they beheaded a bishop/rabbi.......

the whole world would be coming down on them.[/quote]

Not sure that they would actually think twice about killing a Rabbi. . . or a Priest/Bishop. These people care not the slightest bit about religious leaders except their own.

true, but there is a difference between not caring for/hating someone and bringing the whole planet down upon you.

Video shows 8 Chinese held in Iraq Tuesday, January 18, 2005 Posted: 9:39 AM EST (1439 GMT)

MOSUL, Iraq (CNN) -- A video of eight Chinese construction workers taken hostage in Iraq surfaced Tuesday, just as the Vatican confirmed a Catholic archbishop had been released a day after he was kidnapped in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul.

The video shows the men holding opened passports as an Arabic speaker demanded that the Chinese government declare it would not allow its citizens to work for Americans in Iraq.

"We have taken these individuals hostage as they were trying to leave Iraq," the voice said in Arabic. "After interrogating them, we learned that they are Chinese working for a Chinese contracting company in Iraq. This company is carrying out the task of rebuilding one of the American bases."

The video shows the men in front of a wall, with four standing and four kneeling. Hooded guards stood on each side.

The voice, claiming to be a representative of The Islamic Resistance Movement, called on the Chinese government to issue a statement saying they would not allow their citizens to help "their enemy, the Americans."

The terrorist group, led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has released previous videos showing foreign workers pleading for their government's help.

In Tuesday's video, the camera zoomed in for a close look at each passport, which indicated three of the hostages were teenagers -- 17, 18 and 19 years old.

An official at China's embassy in Baghdad said her government "presumes" the men are Chinese but could not immediately confirm it. The state-run Chinese news agency Xinhua quoted sources in China's embassy confirming the men were from China's southern province of Fujian who were in Iraq to help rebuild an Iraqi plant.

Meanwhile, a spokesman for the Vatican in Rome said Basil George Casmoussa was safely released and no ransom was paid.

There were reports that the kidnappers used Casmoussa's cell phone to demand a $200,000 ransom for the 66-year-old archbishop.

Monsignor Tomas Hadid, a spokesman for the Vatican Embassy in Baghdad, said he had spoken to Casmoussa after he was released and said he's "grateful to God" for the archbishop's release.

Casmoussa is a member of the Chaldean Church, part of a group of independent but related Eastern Catholic Churches that accept the pope as their head. While the group accepts the doctrine and celebrates the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church, it uses its own liturgy and customs.

Casmoussa was outside a private residence on a main road in al-Muhendisin, in Mosul, when he was abducted Monday, said Kahsro Goran, deputy governor of Nineveh province.

Christians are a minority in Iraq, which is 97 percent Muslim. But thousands of Christians live in the Mosul area.

There have been several recent attacks on Christian targets in Iraq, including the bombings of several churches.

Guard killed thwarting suicide car bomber A car bomb exploded Tuesday outside a Baghdad office of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), killing a guard who tried to stop the vehicle, Iraqi police and a spokesman for SCIRI said.

SCIRI spokesman Haytham al-Hussein said the driver of the vehicle tried to drive through the main barricade, but a guard fired at the car, forcing the suicide bomber to detonate away from the gate of the Shiite group's office.

Police said the guard was killed and seven others were injured in the blast at the information office of Iraq's largest political party. The suicide bomber also died, officials said.

On December 27, a suicide bomber blew up a car outside SCIRI's headquarters in the same neighborhood in Baghdad as Tuesday's attack, killing six people and wounding 33.

Attacks on political targets have intensified ahead of the country's scheduled January 30 elections, in which Iraqis will elect a transitional national assembly.

Iraq will close its borders January 29-31 for the election, Dr. Fareed Ayar of the Iraq Independent Electoral Commission said Tuesday. The country is already under a state of emergency.

The state of emergency essentially puts the country under martial law, and allows interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi to restrict freedom of movement, impose curfews and take security and military measures he deems necessary.

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/18/iraq/index.html[/url]

WOW there crazy, there picking on the chinese now :?

They let him go today..

Yeah, they need the Pope on their side, it's not good for their PR.

this holy war shit has to stop. and you know who gave muslims the idea of holy war? the crusaders.

terrorism is forbidden in islam and punishable by death in most cases. women and children and civilians in general are not to be touched when at war. for a group to call their strategic fight for a piece of the pie a 'jihad,' and then to violate the laws of the qur'an and the sunna is unjustified, embarassing, and criminal to say the least.

religious clerics who advise muslim states on matters of islamic law do not, to my knowledge, declare 'jihad' in the way you all think of it. jihad does not mean holy war. it means to strive or struggle, and figuratively in islam there are 2 jihads: the greater jihad is striving to be the best muslim an individual can be; the lesser jihad is a struggle for justice when the islamic community (umma) has been attacked or compromised.

anyway, when these radical groups declare 'jihad' they don't carry much credibility to the majority of the population. what does happen thanks to our lovely media here, is that people get the perception that all muslims are bound by these fatwas and declarations of war. or that there is a single monolithic 'islam' that is radical, violent, and hateful in nature. the moderate islamic modernists in the world are marginalized, or worse, categorized as part of radical movements. we need to listen to the moderates and hear what they have to say. but the US gets scared once they hear talk of a state ruled by islamic law...

[quote=face]this holy war shit has to stop. and you know who gave muslims the idea of holy war? the crusaders.

anyway, when these radical groups declare 'jihad' they don't carry much credibility to the majority of the population. what does happen thanks to our lovely media here, is that people get the perception that all muslims are bound by these fatwas and declarations of war. or that there is a single monolithic 'islam' that is radical, violent, and hateful in nature. the moderate islamic modernists in the world are marginalized, or worse, categorized as part of radical movements. we need to listen to the moderates and hear what they have to say. but the US gets scared once they hear talk of a state ruled by islamic law...[/quote]

1. well, remember the crusades took place an extremely long time ago, when there existed no true form of leadership outside of the church. people were still afraid of god and his wrath. you really cant compare the two periods. the whole planet was basically warring religios factions at the time b/c people didnt really have a voice at the time.

2. exactly. they call thier attacks a jihad simply to spread the blame to thier neighbors and fellow countrymen. its like me shooting someone who isnt catholic and claiming that the bishop told me to do it......then calling on all catholics to join me in my fight, which wasn't anyone's decision but my own.

exactly.

[quote=face]this holy war shit has to stop. and you know who gave muslims the idea of holy war? the crusaders.

terrorism is forbidden in islam and punishable by death in most cases. women and children and civilians in general are not to be touched when at war. for a group to call their strategic fight for a piece of the pie a 'jihad,' and then to violate the laws of the qur'an and the sunna is unjustified, embarassing, and criminal to say the least.

religious clerics who advise muslim states on matters of islamic law do not, to my knowledge, declare 'jihad' in the way you all think of it. jihad does not mean holy war. it means to strive or struggle, and figuratively in islam there are 2 jihads: the greater jihad is striving to be the best muslim an individual can be; the lesser jihad is a struggle for justice when the islamic community (umma) has been attacked or compromised.

anyway, when these radical groups declare 'jihad' they don't carry much credibility to the majority of the population. what does happen thanks to our lovely media here, is that people get the perception that all muslims are bound by these fatwas and declarations of war. or that there is a single monolithic 'islam' that is radical, violent, and hateful in nature. the moderate islamic modernists in the world are marginalized, or worse, categorized as part of radical movements. we need to listen to the moderates and hear what they have to say. but the US gets scared once they hear talk of a state ruled by islamic law...[/quote]

You make an excellent point and thanks for clearing up the Qur'ans view on terrorists and terrorism, however, as with all religions, original text gets bastardised for what ever agenda is being pushed at the time.

In reality, whether you like it or not, the voices that calling for jihad and encouraging young men and women to commit acts of terrorism and murder are the only voices that are being heard.

The call to jihad over the past twenty years or so has been used by some clerics as a basic call to arms, usually with no regard to saving the lives of women or children. These clerics are the ones who are doing the vast majority of Islam a disservice and are soley responsible for the unfortunate way Islam has been viewed by many in the west, especially over the past 5 years.

The problem is not in how the west reacts to these call for jiahd, but how the vast majority of muslims react, especially those who follow the teaching of the Qur'an as you've laid out above. Unfortunatley their voices are not heard.

yup. pretty much, davetlv. i think western media is also responsible for the negative view we have of islam, and the lack of moderate voices. if you read edward said's "covering islam," you will see what i mean.

thesightless: my point about the crusades was that jihad was not originally described as "holy war." true, muslim leaders expanded their empire immediately after muhammad's death, but this was mainly political. even after the abbasid revolution, islam's values were manipulated to suit the rulers. it wasn't until the abbasid caliphate that the traditions of the prophet (hadith) were even written down.

it's like the king james bible. did jesus come back and recite the bible to king james himself? no, he simply changed whatever suited him at the time.

Face let me guess you voted for Kerry.. Why would the USA not gget scared of a "state ruled by islamic law??'' it is a reality in this world that the muslim religion spreads and tries to take over in every place they go to.. THey each have 12 kids and grow like wildfire.. there population doubles every 30 years.. all the so caled "hot spots" in the world will show you that.. Palestine/Israel, serbia/albania.. these are places where muslims and christians clash all the time.. if they start fighting that is a sign that things are getting bad.. and they will stay calm for a while but then at any given point they will flare up.

hey, runningman, i realize that you unfortunetly have to accept the fact that islamic ruled regions are indeed associated with trouble for a while. but WOW>

[quote=runningman]Face let me guess you voted for Kerry.. Why would the USA not gget scared of a "state ruled by islamic law??'' it is a reality in this world that the muslim religion spreads and tries to take over in every place they go to.. THey each have 12 kids and grow like wildfire.. there population doubles every 30 years.. all the so caled "hot spots" in the world will show you that.. Palestine/Israel, serbia/albania.. these are places where muslims and christians clash all the time.. if they start fighting that is a sign that things are getting bad.. and they will stay calm for a while but then at any given point they will flare up.[/quote]

first of all, what does my voting choice have to do with moderate islam? or better yet, why is it any of your business? am i even a citizen of this country or old enough to vote? i am, but again, none of your business.

second of all, i know a lot of muslims in this country who actually voted for bush because of his religious values. believe it or not, muslims, christians, and jews share the same basic moral values. i dont consider myself muslim, but i can see how one would support bush on this account.

third, you missed my whole point. US foreign policy in the middle east is hypocritical to say the least. we support free democratic elections, but only if they lead to a secular state. they think that if islamists take control of the staet, they will do away with democracy, and US diplomatic and business relations will be severed. if we support the moderates who are arguing for taking the best of western and european ideas and innovations, and fusing them with islamic traditional values, then our interests would be secured.

this obviously too complicated for you, and many books will explain it better than i can. but you probably don't care, so just continue with your bigotry.

PS. i don't think kerry would have done a better job than bush in terms of middle east policy; i don't think he would have even taken a different approach!

kerry would have this country jsut pack up and leave, he said so himself. imagaine the hatred generated if we left the place in shambles without helping them attain a gov't. also, the man has zero charisma and is simply an appeaser. i mean, bush definetly comes off as a redneck, moreso early on. but he there is something about his personality that a lot of people can identify with. the democratic base did identify with kerry, they just hated bush. thier first mistake was blowing of howard dean. even as a somewhat right leaning person i liked the guy. he shot from the hip, and was liberal in all the right ways. and conservative as well in the right ways.(regarding security)

Always when I think of Iran I see a country still in the clutches of the fundamentalisic clergy, but struggling hard to break loose. There many more countries where young Islamists are done with the hardliners and have voiced their wish for a more democratic way of living.

When I look at it, democracy itself is very much an applicable 'value' in any religion: as long as it [religion] knows moderation. Authoritarian and hi?rarchical thinking is imo more a result of culture than religion. Religion itself springs from culture I think. The authoritarian and hi?rarchical way of thinking has expressed itself in religion. The only thing is: people who place the book before people, won't acknowledge this, and think the other way around: the book or the clergy are the highest authority, not man.

I'm very curious to see what will happen in Iran within the next 10-15 years: I don't believe this status quo can continue to exist much longer than that, and I believe at some point the reformists will take over. They've already created a 'base' on which to build, they just need to take their time.

Why do I mention Iran? Because despite the hassle about it's nuclear program, it has the potential to become one of the first democratic Islamic states. Because the youth wants it to. The future.