Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

btw, policies here will soon react; it is a royal mess for sure

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[QUOTE=i!!ustrious;856868]btw, policies here will soon react; it is a royal mess for sure[/QUOTE]

Shouldn't y'all be encouraging them to come to California? I mean, if you cared that is...

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

oh.. we are

it is the only thing that will save our california econ...

no doubt about it.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

i saw we just assail the ultra corrupted mexican gov.; it would save coutless lives and money...

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[QUOTE=88Mariner;856862]you mad brah. IF they were all 'racist and hate-filled' (typical boilerplate, right?) then they would have been doing this even before the law was passed. amirite.jpg?

But of course, 70+% of Arizonans are hate-filled and racist as well all know. And yet, you're concerned with them being deported? On what basis do you support that people here illegally should remain? Heaven forbid we criminalize crimes brah.

No one is forcing them to stay in Arizona. They can quickly escape the impending kristallnacht and flee to California, New Mexico, or Nevada (or elsewhere!), obvious safe havens from hate-filled racists who have yet to be, but apparently are definitely going to be, involved in the pin-pointing of illegals. (What's the possibility that naturalized immigrants in Arizona won't take part in this?). And while the Arizona police are heavily burdened by investigating other crimes, I'm sure they'll put in the extra hours to get them 'beaner's. No doubt about that.

Christ dude, you make it sound like all illegals will be forced to wear yellow taco patches on their jackets.

(At best, the could have added that "lawful interaction" could not be based upon the investigation of the very statute itself. but ymmv)[/QUOTE]

wow, im kind of amazed that youre basically not getting this.

while i agree that something needs to be done about immigrations this law just makes shit worse, because its not about just asking for an id, dont know if you follow the law system but asking for an id when you get pulled over is already a requirement, people tend to forget that there is a law that requires you to id yourself, the problem becomes when you give cops the power to pull anyone over with the excuse of a probable cause, or anyone acting suspicious, i think even the most naive of a person knows how racist this is going to become.

Also about the state, i guess you havent heard about Sherif Arpaio, or about how many abuses the minute man made when they were allowed to detain any illegal immigrant, or how many cases of police brutality towards illegal immigrants have been reported.

RM, about the cartoon, its a satire they did in a newspaper in Mexico, dont know about it being it racist, in order for them to depict an american cop i would imagine the best way of doing that, would be to draw a white male, but hey, if you think its racist, more power to you man.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^what your're basically saying is that this law doesn't change anything that's already on the books. Further, Federal law also requires non-citizens to have their visa or alien documents on their person.Simply stated, Arizona has made the federal crime a state crime. If being in the country illegal is a crime, and 'reasonable suspicion" is the standard by which every crime on our books can be investigated, why does it seem we need a special standard for criminal immigration?

Question: if the federal government refuses to get off its ass and do anything about the immigration problem, and this law is unconstitutional, what would you propose to be the most effective means to 1) identify those who are here illegally and 2) have them deported as soon as possible? Anyone who possesses and presents any state DL, a green card, visa, whatever, is clear.

I've thought about this for all of 3 minutes, but I'm not sure how else Arizona would set out to handle this problem, absent a "come admit you're here illegally" day at the local precincts.

Even still, does not the pertinent provision [I]require[/I] the police to double-check the immigration status of the person anyways? It's almost like there's an additional safety net to protect those who might otherwise run into difficulties?

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

the huge difference is that they are giving the cops the power to practically stop who ever they see fitting and putting them in jail as well.

obviously you not being hispanic or anything close to one, dont care, i my self, i do care, im a hispanic, i already put up with a lot of shit from racist cops, who in any opportunity they have they pull you over and start questioning your citizenship. stupid laws like these will only give them more power, now you cannot tell them to fuck off because if they see fit, they can say oh well, he seemed reasonably suspicious to me, his visa card was reasonably suspicious to me, so after a couple of hours in jail and his suspiciousness being wrong he can just say, oh well im sorry, but you seemed resonably suspicious to me.

im a born us citizen with a hispanic heritage, i pay taxes just like any other race in this country, i fear that a law like this one will only make it just imposible for someone like me to live in a place like Arizona, how many times do you think i would get pulled over driving around Phoenix for being reasonably suspicious?? This is Arizona we are talking about, theire immigration problem is basically with Mexicans and latin american crossing over, so, do you think theyll be stoping Asian people? or white People??

as for what would i do?? i trully dont know, im not a politician, nor someone who is interested in them, so i cant really answer that question, i really dont know if there is a real answer to immigration. But when people come up with laws like these that wont achieve anything and will only create more and more caos, then yeah, im against them.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

you already put up with shit from racist cops? How is this going to change at all, then? Invalidate the law, still put up with racist cops.

And the more I think about it, the more I think there really is no other way to figure out who is, you know, here illegally and who is not. Why is it wrong for the police to ask for identification in a zone experiencing high degrees of illegal immigration?

In terms of adducing who is and who is not here illegally, beyond the scope of already supplied identification, there is probably a decent degree of certainty who is here illegal and who is not. I'm pretty sure that the average person of Arizona could spot illegal immigrants with a high degree certainty at a half mile of distance.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

are you kidding me?? do i have to explain this with apples and oranges??

like you mentioned, the "asking for id" method does not work, its been tried for many many years, and yet, its not effective. Also, if youve read anything about this new law, the problem is not about asking for id's, the problem resides on how much power are you giving these cops, that is the main issue, how many times are hispanics going to be incarcerated just because they were hispanics? this law is similar to the patriot act, where you can detain any suspect for indefinite time as long as you label him as a terrorist suspect. In this law, the context is pretty much similar, the cop has the power to detain ANYONE who he thinks is suspicious of being illegal immigrant.

i ask the question again, do you think many white people are going to be detained? asians?? black people?? i bet they wont.

like i mentioned in my previous post, i do not know the answer to the immigration problem in the US, i trully think its a really complicated matter but again, you are not solving such problem by rounding up hoards of Mexicans who you do not have to be sure if they are illegal or not to detain them, you only have to be "suspicious".

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

All that is required is a proper ID brah. Clearly illegals are not going to have such documentation (although I"ll cede that the counterfeit ID market is going to boom down that way). The fact is, there is no other way to resolve this issue. This law protects lawfully present citizens and immigrants. It balances out this protection with the overwhelming need to remove several hundred thousand (and growing) illegal immigrants. There are inumerable safeguards and remedies to already hinder police officers who act against the purpose of this law.

If no reasonable or articulable suspicion can be made that a person is here illegally, where no identification is furnished, and where the federal government makes zero effort to combat illegal immigration, the state of Arizona remains effectively defenseless in what amounts to a proxy invasion by Mexico.

The legislature could very well have said that suspicion [I]alone[/I] would suffice to detain a person who is believed to be here illegally. This would have most certainly empowered the state to combat the problem. However, the legislature clearly added the clause for identification in order to prevent lawful citizens from being impermissibly detained by the state.

Had this been washington state in a situation where canadians were constantly entering its domain illegally, and the federal government did not a damn thing about it, and there were serious problems that arose consistent with illegal canadian immigrants, guess what! I would still support the very same law as applied in that state, too! And i'm sure there would be some Canadian members here who would rant and rave about how this will enable racist cops to incarcerate canadians for the fact that they are canadians. Those who would call this law racist on such a basis can presumably be determined to care not about the laws of this country, that the laws are to be followed, and that illegal immigration (while 'a complicated matter') should be permitted until 'we think of something better'.

I'm all ears for an alternative course, but I again suggest that there's no other way to accomplish this.

This aside, what then when we all have to carry national identification cards (which are functionally no different than any other visa, state ID, etc..)? Will that be satisfactory to ask for ID and detain those who do not possess them under suspicion they are not here lawfully?

Hopefully we never come to a point where Canadians also thumb their noses at our laws, too.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

so, you think the cops are not going to take advantage of a law like this? so you think theres not going to be any abuse of power toward the hispanic comunity?? also, arizona citizens have the power to sue the city if they feel that the cops are not doing theyre job, i mean c'mon, this shit is just amazing.

[video]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-26-2010/law---border[/video]

i know a lot of you dont really care for jon stewart but he puts it in a really clear manner.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

If a car with illegal immigrants is driving down the road, or walking down the street, and a cop drives by, the MAJORITY (not all) but the majority of them will in fact act suspiciously.

Until you see a border patrol agent drive through a well-known illegal immigrant apartment complex personally, you won't have any idea what am explaining.

If a cop in some way assaults a legal immigrant in Arizona, you can bet they will be sued btw.

I'm not saying this law is perfect, I am only making connections with experiences I've had... Not sure Jon Stewart or the other talking heads have personally seen situations like these with their own eyes...

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

wtf is BRAH?

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[QUOTE=88Mariner;857152] Had this been washington state in a situation where canadians were constantly entering its domain illegally, and the federal government did not a damn thing about it, and there were serious problems that arose consistent with illegal canadian immigrants, guess what! I would still support the very same law as applied in that state, too! And i'm sure there would be some Canadian members here who would rant and rave about how this will enable racist cops to incarcerate canadians for the fact that they are canadians. Those who would call this law racist on such a basis can presumably be determined to care not about the laws of this country, that the laws are to be followed, and that illegal immigration (while 'a complicated matter') should be permitted until 'we think of something better'. [/QUOTE]

The problem isn't that it infringes upon the rights of Canadians or Americans that are here illegally, the problem is that it infringes upon the rights of otherwise law-abiding US citizens who "look" Mexican (or Canadian, whatever that means) in the judgment of the police.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^ is that determination not founded on first, a lawful contact with the person, and 2) the inability to provide any identification? "Looking" 'mexican' only congeals after these two events.

Better, what of the requirement that Arizonan's be required to carry on them identification? Lack of identification on a person being investigated for a crime, would, in my impression, enable the officer to already detain the individual until such information can be adduced.

A nullification of this provision I think would result in de facto amnesty.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[QUOTE=88Mariner;857249]^ is that determination not founded on first, a lawful contact with the person, and 2) the inability to provide any identification? "Looking" 'mexican' only congeals after these two events. [/QUOTE]

That's not how I read it, no. Here's the critical provision:

[QUOTE]11-1051(B: FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).[/QUOTE][URL]http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf[/URL]

As I read this, one of the primary problems is that, given the fact that it is itself a crime to be in this country illegally, the language of the bill becomes circular and effectively permits a stop (i.e., lawful contact) on the basis that the person may be an illegal alien. The end result is a concern that anyone that "looks Mexican" can be stopped for that reason alone -- at least that's how I read it.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

it's almost as if they're being told to "assume" illegal until proven other wise

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

edit (nevermind I'm not getting into this)

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Except not.

Perhaps we could simply have the officers ask them if they have health insurance before any other questions.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^Look, I know you're going to be a practicing lawyer soon enough and therefore have training with statutory construction, etc. With that background, I would think you'd have to at least appreciate the reason that people find the language of the statute troubling. I mean, you may not agree with the construction, but you've got to at least recognize why it's an issue for people, right?

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Let me pose another hypothetical: IF, say, the country of mexico was annexed by arizona and therefore this very law we're discussing was the law of the land all the way down to guatemala and belize, would this alleged problem still stand? I'm pointing out that, along that border, the suspicion of illegal entry would NOT be based on skin color whatsoever, because invariably, they all have, for lack of proper nomenclature, dark skin. Imagine if that cartoon posted above was sketched on the southern border of mexico.

The issue people are taking with this law is that there is the notion that since brown people are illegally entering a country that is viewed as 'white' (even though people that look white are minorities in arizona). So, to me, calling this law 'racist' invariably begins with the projection of one's racism. Arizona should not be handicapped from acting in accordance with federal laws simply because Mexicans happen to be of darker skin pigmentation.

(and let's be real here, mexicans only make up 60% or so of illegal entry on that largely unguarded border. What of all the other south americans from other countries who have managed to escape the very harsh penalties for illegally entering mexico?)

On account of this, I ask again, what OTHER indicia is there that a person is illegally present on american soil? Does one see them waving signs that say 'i'm here illegally'? Do they head over to the local police department and fess up? Perhaps they have business cards saying "resident of non-american country" which they hand out. Or, for the purposes of Arizona's unfortunate problem, can one at least make a base assumption that those entering arizona illegally by crossing our national borders are not black, white, or asian?

But being 'brown' as it has been described, does not, alone, rise to the level of suspicion needed to investigate. There must be more, and that has been, so I've read, articulated in the guidelines for officers - the state will not pursue ANY charge based solely on the color of one's skin. And I don't think it's necessary to enumerate factors that would render the perception that a person is not here lawfully.

As I have said already, absent a law like this, de facto amnesty is pretty much the only result.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

I'm not in the camp that thinks that the law was actually [I]intended [/I]to be racist, I just think it's really poorly worded and gives police that happen to be racist or who think of constitutional protections as an impediment to them doing their job cover to pretty much stop anyone. In that part of the country, how many US Citizens are going to get stopped on account of simply having darker skin?

I'm all for tighter borders and am in favor of better immigration laws, but we have to continue to respect the 4th amendment. This law in effect codifies a new, more lenient basis for finding reasonable suspicion to stop someone, regardless of whether or not they are ever charged with a crime.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

I see what you're saying. I do. I think I can argue both sides fairly well. It seems to me that I take the slightly opposing side. That instead of this being 'poorly' worded, it in fact is worded quite appropriately but could have, to alleviate fears, added that this law could not be a basis for raising a non-encounter to a mere encounter. But I have every reason to believe that this slight adjustment would not quiet down the hysterically MAD people out there calling this "nazism" "like the gestapo" "racist" "bigoted" ad nauseum.

I've been representing indigent defendants in trial court for several months now. I know the position they're coming from. I honestly do feel for those who have a fear that they're going to be randomly stopped for being brown. But I think those fears are misguided. Allow me to explain.

The topic of 'racist cops' has come up more than once, and I think it is unfounded. First, racist cops were racist before this law, so this law ultimately changes nothing from their position: they'll continue to survey people based on race. Nothing short of firing all present LEO's in Arizona and replacing them with in all-hispanic police force would convince people that 'racism' wouldn't be a factor here, and even then, I'm pretty sure there still would be vocal contrarians. (But let's even address that hypothetical: would having an all-hispanic police force, just as I alluded to in my above hypothetical, eliminate the problems of this statute?) So, racist cops will be racist cops. that's just a fact of life.

But do we really have racist cops? People seem to have the belief that there's a racist cop on every other street corner waiting to demonstrate his latest impression of Bull Conner. Nothing that I have read so far seems indicate this, or even anything that could amount to SOME being racist. There have been several reports where police chiefs and sheriffs have come out saying that they would not pursue (actively or otherwise) this law. And I suspect, save for Sherriff Joe, there's going to be a large number of officers who won't even touch this law. Remember what happened to Mark Furhman? Better, law enforcement works best where there is mutual trust between the officers and the community. So the whole notion of 'racist' cops from a quantitative or qualitative perspective seems to be unfounded or at least exaggerated. Then add to the fact that there may very well be LEO's who are even SYMPATHETIC to illegal immigrants (or at least those who are here working for the man and not importing violence, kidnappings, drugs, etc...).

So what do we have left? A few cops, acting out of line, hating on 'brown people'. Not half, not a third, not even a quarter. And probably not even 10%. Will they happen to be stopping hispanics who don't look illegal every day? Again, I think not. Mexico, for what it's worth, is more violent than Iraq right now. There is violence flooding the southern border states that target americans. And even americans are being targeted in Mexico. There is significant violence related to the trafficking of both drugs and of human beings. There are kidnappings (I believe Phoenix led the nation in kidnappings for the last three years). There is a lot of crime going down around that area. That means, at least to me, that they're going to be busying themselves with 1) controlling crime corridors, 2) involving themselves in prosecuting that crime (witnesses, investigations, etc...), and 3) general police work at the office. What time they do have will certainly not be involved in camping out at a Home Depot parking lot.

Let's assume for the moment that this law is unconstitutional (whether that is the case we won't know for a year or two). What has been the immediate effect? Mexico has already issued warnings for those thinking about entering Arizona (which is, I think, hypocritical given the documented allegations that the Mexican government is sponsoring and/or directly funding assistance to those trying to enter this country illegally). Further, there has already been some minimal indication that illegals in arizona are either getting out of AZ, planning to get out of AZ in the near future, and thinking about leaving AZ. And I think as the weeks go on, we'll be hearing more about this development. So this law, I think, can be said to have the practical effect of removing illegal aliens in accordance with federal law with the additional benefit of maintaining the incentive for illegal aliens to never enter mexico and to try California (where they can get public education at 1/3rd the cost to its citizens).

Turning to whether this affords a more 'lenient' basis to the 4th Amendment, I don't know if I disagree or agree with that, but I think I know what you're basis is. In contemplation of that, does the 4th Amendment protect illegal aliens? I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but don't quote me on that. For a moment, let's assume it does: if an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person IS illegal, then that person is going to be deported. If an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person actually can prove lawful citizenship or immigration status, what is the result? Suppression and ultimately the charge will be dropped (assuming no other crime is involved). And that is the protection the 4th amendment affords to citizens. And in problematic cases, citizens have the recourse of filing Sec. 1983 charges against the officer/department (yet another incentive to cautiously enter the realm of executing this law on Arizona soil).

And so where do concerns REALLY rise? Where the small number of 'racist' cops meet up with those who do not possess identification on themselves, where no other crime has been committed, and where the person does not speak any english, etc...but who are, in actuality, lawfully present persons. I'm not sure of the probability that this scenario would occur, and i'm not saying it won't happen, but imho, 'very little' says it best.

All this aside, I'm seriously interested in what other people have to say. My statements may be misguided, misapplied, whatever. I think it's a fascinating issue to address, so i hope this doesn't end with toasty and I discussing it back and forth.

over and out!

88M

edit; suspicion of illegal entry reminds me of the phrase, "I know it when I see it".

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Don't have time to respond fully, but briefly:

[QUOTE=88Mariner;857804] But do we really have racist cops? People seem to have the belief that there's a racist cop on every other street corner waiting to demonstrate his latest impression of Bull Conner. Nothing that I have read so far seems indicate this, or even anything that could amount to SOME being racist. [/QUOTE]

I don't know about Arizona, but here in St. Louis, I'm unhappy to report that racism in the police department is alive and well. For reasons I won't bore you with, I'm acquainted with a large number of STL police officers, and if they're any indication, racism in the PD is a real phenomenon. I don't know how that translates into action, if at all, but suffice it to say that the N word flies around pretty freely for it to just be one or two bad apples.

The point about this not being anything new, however, is well-taken.

[QUOTE=88Mariner;857804] Turning to whether this affords a more 'lenient' basis to the 4th Amendment, I don't know if I disagree or agree with that, but I think I know what you're basis is. In contemplation of that, does the 4th Amendment protect illegal aliens? I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but don't quote me on that. For a moment, let's assume it does: if an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person IS illegal, then that person is going to be deported. [B]If an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person actually can prove lawful citizenship or immigration status, what is the result?[/B] Suppression and ultimately the charge will be dropped (assuming no other crime is involved). And that is the protection the 4th amendment affords to citizens. And in problematic cases, citizens have the recourse of filing Sec. 1983 charges against the officer/department (yet another incentive to cautiously enter the realm of executing this law on Arizona soil). [/QUOTE]

You're leaving out a significant result, and that is the change in the psyche, mistrust of the police, wedge that forms in the community, etc. that happens when you're constantly being stopped and asked for ID by the police when the white folks running around aren't having the same issue. As you mentioned earlier in your post, "law enforcement works best where there is mutual trust between the officers and the community" and this sort of thing isn't likely to facilitate that trust. Would you want for the police to have the right to stop you, for no reason at all, and be able to detain you unless you showed them ID? That would get real old, real quick.

The problem with suppression of evidence as a remedy is that it rings pretty hollow when you're not doing anything wrong in the first place. "Great, the evidence that they didn't find, of the crime I'm not committing, isn't going to be used against me. That makes the hour or two I spent in the pokey and the humiliation I suffered when I was hauled away in a cop car because I forgot my wallet when I walked to the corner store and couldn't prove I was a citizen totally worth it."

I'm not sure the 1983 remedy is that much better. The existence of this law would provide them qualified immunity from civil liability anyway, because they'd be acting pursuant to an act of the legislature.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

whoa whoa whoa gtfo on the learn'ed lawyer - higher education - talk... let's keep things simple and conspiratory. AND for heavens sake, where are the interweb links to backup these accusations.

Trying to make a point... and in no way being serious.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

You want links? I bill for that. ;)

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

It's certainly interesting to hear you and Toasty flesh out (no pun intended) the details of this new law.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Runningman. Where are you dood? I want to hear your thoughts on REAL ID as it pertains to this battle.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

it's all beginning to make sense...........

......

[IMG]http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/imagesArizona-Profiling_small.jpg[/IMG]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^^lol!!!

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Here's something I had not previously contemplated:

-If an AZ cop pulls over a car which happens to contain illegal aliens, that illegal alien, knowing there's a damn good chance they're going to get deported, is more likely to use violence against the officer to escape the impending arrest and susbequent deportation.

Just wait till an increasing number of officers get shot/stabbed while making traffic stops.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^mmm I dunno about that, these are just normal hard working Mexicans with families most of them... not criminals and not looking to cause trouble. I doubt they will be viewing cops or border patrol officers any differently than they already do.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

i guess the violent drug trade is propped up by those hard-working, normal illegal immigrants just wanting to send a few billion down to mexico.

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/30/arizona.deputy.shot/index.html[/url]

edit: sod that. just because they're normal, hardworking whatever, doesn't mean you can just waltz into any damn country one pleases. to even say it's ok is to spit in the face of all the immigrants who have gone through the naturalization process.

on a related point, i would submit that by giving illegal aliens carte blanche to do as they wish when they come into this country results in the non-inclination to assimilate into our country. I don't think I can put it into appropriate words, but those who earn something (like citizenship) tack to it a high value....because they've worked towards it, and therefore it is connected to their self-esteem. contariwise, those who are simply handed things without having to work for it do not have that connection, do not have that respect or value of that thing they have obtained.

I'm not sure if i can better explain it at this time of the morning, but hit me up later if you want clarification.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

arent you a smart fella.

so you are basically telling me that the drug cartels are run by illegal immigrants?? srsly??

and also, illegal immigrants have been pulled over for years and years now, ive yet to see violence been used by those same illegals, oh but wait, the cop abuses over those same illegal immigrants keeps on escalating.

you see when you keep generalizing about shit you dont know you keep making yourself look like a moron, i advise you look harder for links, because as youre previous link stated, on which i doubt you read, you should follow the advise of this gentleman:

"Frankly this is just a very horrible story, but we should not generalize," Alfonso Aguilar, former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office, told CNN's Rick Sanchez when news of Friday's shooting broke. "We should focus on the criminality of the drug traffickers ... not scapegoat undocumented immigrants who do not pose any threat to society."

the more morons like you who keep saying that illegal immigration is directly associated to drug trafficking, then the more abuses we are going to see.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

ah my bad. I guess they all just left their wallets at home.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

im thinking the guns must of given their immigration status right away.

"According to Villar, the deputy, 53-year-old Louie Puroll, was patrolling the desert alone when he found bales of marijuana and was confronted by five suspected undocumented immigrants around 4:30 p.m. Two were apparently armed with rifles."

hey who knows, maybe they were pretty cool until he asked about their papers, then all shit broke loose.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[QUOTE=floridaorange;858147].....these are just normal hard working Mexicans with families most of them... not criminals and not looking to cause trouble....[/QUOTE]

Last time I looked, breaking a law makes one a criminal. According to this logic, someone could go and get totally shitcanned and drive all over the highway all they want and shouldn't be arrested or pulled over, after all they are just normal hard working Americans with families most of them...not criminals and not looking to cause trouble. I'm just blown away by how many people are so obsessed with being politically correct over upholding the law.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

update:

[url]http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/04/29/20100429arizona-immigration-law-changes29-ON.html[/url]

Of THOSE changes aren't 'satisfactory', then I honestly don't know what would be without making this law useless.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^ I was responding to the notion that most of the Mexicans that cross the border for work are by and large not looking to shoot an officer of the law.

And yes, being in America without a green card or citizenship is against the law...

...I thought that went without saying 6 pages in to the conversation.

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

The AZ law is not about race or an attack on legal immigrants. It's about one thing only: making immigration enforcement a reality. Time for a national debate: do we want to enforce US immigration laws? If so, the Arizona law is a necessary and lawful tool for doing so. If no, we should end the charade of inadequate, half-hearted enforcement, enact an amnesty now, and remove future penalties for illegal entry.

That's the last I'll say about this until a later point.....