[quote] Spain's prime minister has rejected claims that his election victory was the result of voters bowing to terror in the wake of the Madrid bombings.

The Socialist Party of Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero was elected three days after the train bombs killed 191.

Mr Zapatero told a parliamentary commission investigating the 11 March attacks that Spaniards had never submitted to terrorist violence. [/quote] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4091037.stm[/url]

[quote] THE Prime Minister of Spain accused the previous Government of ordering, before it left office, the destruction of all computer records relating to the March 11 Madrid train bombs.

Jos? Luis Rodr?guez Zapatero said yesterday that the outgoing Government of Jos? Mar?a Aznar sought to deceive the public about who carried out the bombings in an attempt to influence the outcome of the general election that took place three days later. [/quote] [url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1402824,00.html[/url]

In Spain, only the government wanted to go to war (presumably to enhance political ties with the US), the people were against. So exit government in the elections.

The people already had enough on their mind with ETA still bombing them.

Now I feel much better. :roll:

Zapatero is a utopianistic nut.

Zapatero and his party are going to take Spain right down the drain. I think it will be interesting to see where Spain, and the rest of Europe for that matter, will be in a decade or two after the Muslims outnumber them. Oh well, can't say we didn't warn you. Theo Van Gogh being murdered was just the tip of the iceberg. just my 2c.

dude, dont blame it on muslims, blame it on psychos. a lot of muslim countries are peaceful. some arent. dont forget us catholics kinda "cleansed" europe early on.

however, spain really did bow down to them, rather than eliminating the people who do this, they bascially let them get away with whatever they want. it will happen again. i just hope in a country other than USA and enland and canada. (france preferedly)

It not about blaming it on muslims, but the fact of the matter is that almost every single one of these "psychos" is a muslim. You make an excellent point about Crusades, but only in the sense that many muslim nations still promote the same kind of thinking. Most of the world has progressed(advanced if you will), and recognized that there is a better way to live and deal with things. However, all you have to do is listen to the rhetoric coming out of some of these mosques to realize how serious the fundamentalist muslim world-view is. This war will go on for a while because we are not on the same level. Even though I agree with the war on terror in principle, I firmly believe that there are intellectual aspects missing.

I read this quote in a book I'm reading that really made me think.

It's as follows:

"It would be nice to think that, in the war against terror, our side, too, speaks of deep philosophical ideas- it would be nice to think that someone is arguing with the terrorists and with the readers of Sayyid Qutb. But here I have my worries. The followers of Qutb speak, in their wild fashion, of enormous human problems, and they urge one another to death and to murder. But the enemies of these people speak of what? The political leaders speak of United Nations resolutions, of unilateralism, of multilateralism, of weapons inspectors, of coercion and non-coercion. This is no answer to the terrorists. The terrorists speak insanely of deep things. The antiterrorists had better speak sanely of equally deep things. But who will speak of the sacred and the secular, of the physical world and the spiritual world? Who will defend liberal ideas against the enemies of liberal ideas?"

-Paul Berman ("The Philosopher of Islamic Terror," New York Times Magazine, March 23, 2003)

I read this quote in the introduction of the new Michael Novak book, [u]The Universal Hunger for Liberty: Why the Clash of Civilizations is not Inevitable[/u]
I hope you find it interesting.

They weren't weak. They were smart.

If I fall over is it because I was drunk or I just tripped? :roll:

might check the book out...have to finish "Africa: form the cold war to the 21st century" first....(from Roel v/d Veen).

Most complete book on African political development I've found so far...

They were so smart I guess that is why all the liberal nations of Europe keep complaining about the inability of Muslims of integrate successfully into society.

I mean Bush said it correct either you are with us or against us...it just so happens that now Europe is figuring out what that same statement means when Muslims start murdering Van Gogh's decendents. Muslim Extremists are "against us"

You said it right: Muslim Extremists are against us, not Muslims per se.

Most of the Musims here have integrated, or at the least adapted to our standards, just not all of them. How come that when we don't get a 100% score over here those funny reps always start pointing at us yelling 'Failure!'?

There's no such thing as 'You're either with us or against us'. I really hate that destructive quote. This rules out all forms of thinking other than just one side or the other, and I for myself choose to think any fucking way I want to, wether Bush likes it or not.

Sorry, got a bit carried away there...

But I do agree to something I read in another post: our government should not have been so lenient on immigrants. If you choose to live here, you'll abide by our rules. If you don't like it, go home.

[quote=acmatos]Zapatero and his party are going to take Spain right down the drain. [/quote]

How much do you really know about Zapatero or his policies to claim that for certain? Or are you spectulating that solely on the fact that Spain withdrew it's soldiers on the map... If you are, that's just primitive...

I think what happened in Spain, is a sign of democracy. Let's face it, the "Spaniards" (at least the large majority of population) did not support the Iraq campaign even prior to beginning. Their leader failed to provide inside security, while sending troops to a country 1000s of miles away, and on top of that, he LIED to them, about the people who did it (which was probably his gravest mistake; If I remember right, Clinton was almost impeached because of lying about a BLOWJOB and not a TERRORIST ATTACK; and which in you ropinion is more serious? :? ). So, should the Spanish people support the government which opposes the will of the people, and lies to them about very important things? I don't think so. It's not like the Spanish helped the coallition of the willing (governments) and then chickened out. The Spanish never wanted their troops there in the first place...

[quote=acmatos] I think it will be interesting to see where Spain, and the rest of Europe for that matter, will be in a decade or two after the Muslims outnumber them. Oh well, can't say we didn't warn you. Theo Van Gogh being murdered was just the tip of the iceberg. just my 2c.[/quote]

There are crimes like this happening all over the world. Each race/religion will (sadly) have it's extremists, which are never well-intended. The US of A has probably the most wide variety of extremist groups in the world, which in some parts of the greatest "country in the world" yield amazing power. :lol: What if KKK takes control of the US, oh I forgot, they don't breed as fast as the muslims do... :roll:

And here you're generalizing, again. MUSLIMS DOES NOT EQUAL MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. The large majority of muslims are not extremists, cause let me see, every fourth person on this planet, would be a psycho and the world would be trully a more fucked up place... Don't you get that? You should be a bit more careful with your choice of words in the future...

And as long as Western values and human rights are promoted, I don't see, where the problem is. On the other hand extremists (no matter which race, religion, political views), are a matter, that should be dealt with and forbidden...