Re: you know what's astonishing?

I personally know some of the people he worked with in Florida so believe me when I say, Bush was dumb enough or absent-minded enough to say what he said incorrectly on television, in a townhall in Orlando, 7 weeks after 9/11. I know that's hard to fathom, but it's most likely the truth of the matter.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;782646]I personally know some of the people he worked with in Florida so believe me when I say, Bush was dumb enough or absent-minded enough to say what he said incorrectly on television, in a townhall in Orlando, 7 weeks after 9/11. I know that's hard to fathom, but it's most likely the truth of the matter.[/QUOTE]

I find it strange that he would watch a plane go into the twin towers comment that he thought it was due to a terrible pilot then carry on about his day. I think I would a have canceled all my engagements that day even if I thought it was an accident. Apparently he was asked about it a few weeks later and still maintains he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV before entering the classroom.

Do you think it was OK that Bush & Cheney where only interviewed on 9/11 together, not on oath, with no transcript and only a very select few people from the 9/11 committee present.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

it was a set-up, i researched it for thousands of hours.

shit is okey as hell.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I mean what do people have to gain for asing for a new investigation but the truth? Anybody that says controlled demo is immedietly called a conspiracy theorist. I don't see why we would want that ridicule unless we believed in having a new investigation.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;782619]^ [B]"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski[/B][/QUOTE]

Didn't the recent investigation into the collapse of building 7 conclude that no one could of predicted that building 7 could of collapsed.

Which is already been discussed in this thread I think

[URL]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59030&highlight=building[/URL]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

got really busy at work... haven't had time yet to look at the stuff that chunky posted, but I will when I have time.

but I have to say that [I]so far[/I], everything in this thread has only increased my belief that the conspiracy theory arguments don't hold up very well and involve a lot of dubious conjecture. There are still some things that I have to look at, though.

[U]Stuff that I think is reasonably safe to say is false/missing the point:[/U] [B]Molten Steel while building was standing[/B] - highly unsubstantiated, impossible to determine from grainy Youtube videos, logically highly unlikely since building was still standing at time.

[B]Molten Steel after building fell[/B] - possible and substantiated in isolated places; scientific evidence suggests this can occur without any sort of a bomb. However, videos used to "substantiate" this by the conspiracy theorists include still shots of completely unrelated events (i.e., the metalworkers clearing debris)

[B]Free Fall speed[/B] - highly unsubstantiated, evidence of building fall times and video of debris falling faster than building makes this highly unlikely; also analysis of seismic readings and scientific calculations suggest estimates that are clearly above free fall imes.

[B]Planes couldn't bring buildings down[/B] - THEY DIDN'T, IT WAS THE FIRES THAT DID; no one argues that the impact of the planes brought the buildings down. Best scientific explanation is that the uncontrolled fires brough the buildings down when they sufficiently weakened the steel (not melted it) to the point where it couldn't hold the loads any longer.

[B]No plane ever hitting Pentagon[/B] - Seems unlikely, despite lack of clear video; don't know why one wasn't taken or released, but there were very many [I]independent[/I] eyewitnesses who saw the plane coming in from many different vantage points. It would take a lot for me to think they were all lying.

[U]Stuff I still have to look into:[/U] [B]People saying they heard things/bombs/etc.[/B] [B]Bush saying contradictory/confusing things[/B] - [B]Building 7 controlled demolition[/B]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Miroslav;782965]

[B]Molten Steel while building was standing[/B] - highly unsubstantiated, impossible to determine from grainy Youtube videos, logically highly unlikely since building was still standing at time. [/QUOTE]

The videos mite be hard to determine on grainy youtube footage but the original footage was taken from news channels that where broadcasting as the events occurred. I'm guessing the experts who made the conclusion didn't make their conclusion by looking at grainy Youtube videos and used the clearer footage from the news channels broadcasting the events. There was dispute over the time building 7 collapsed. Debunkers where saying the footage had been sped up. However most of the conspiracy theorist where actually telling people to get the official CNN video footage and check from for them self.

When Steven Jones was interviewed by CNN they refused to broadcast the footage of the collapse during his interview. I can dig out the footage if anyone wants to see it!

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Miroslav;782965]

[B]Planes couldn't bring buildings down[/B] - THEY DIDN'T, IT WAS THE FIRES THAT DID; no one argues that the impact of the planes brought the buildings down. Best scientific explanation is that the uncontrolled fires brough the buildings down when they sufficiently weakened the steel (not melted it) to the point where it couldn't hold the loads any longer. [/QUOTE]

But the NIST experts who came to this conclusion have failed to be able to even remotely recreate this scenario in the furnaces when they did the trials

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=chunky;783001]The videos mite be hard to determine on grainy youtube footage but the original footage was taken from news channels that where broadcasting as the events occurred. I'm guessing the experts who made the conclusion didn't make their conclusion by looking at grainy Youtube videos and used the clearer footage from the news channels broadcasting the events. There was dispute over the time building 7 collapsed. Debunkers where saying the footage had been sped up. However most of the conspiracy theorist where actually telling people to get the official CNN video footage and check from for them self.

When Steven Jones was interviewed by CNN they refused to broadcast the footage of the collapse during his interview. I can dig out the footage if anyone wants to see it![/QUOTE] Then please show me the evidence that experts used to determine that there was molten steel pouring out of the sides of the building [I]while it was still standing[/I]. Also the names of the experts who made that determination. If it is credible and reasonably conclusive, then I will believe it.

I'm already in agreement that there were cases of molten steel discovered later in the wreckage; however, in those cases I'm still in disagreement about the cause.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

y was it pulled? cause it was insured?

see the angle of the steel where it's cut slanted? that only happens with demolition. don't say its photoshoped..take it to any expert. ill put money on it.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I was thinking about the 80 witnesses who saw the plane hit the Pentagon. What would interest me would be to re interview these witnesses while showing them the footage of the Pentagon and ask their opinions on how the face wall was still standing after the collision which fell later that day while being filmed by TV news channels.

There is some video footage recently of someone who claimed they saw the Pentagon plane. When he returned to where he claimed he was his story didn't add up. I will have a look for the footage tonight

edit [URL]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4770996865659781278[/URL]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=PROG;783014]y was it pulled? cause it was insured?

see the angle of the steel where it's cut slanted? that only happens with demolition. don't say its photoshoped..take it to any expert. ill put money on it.[/QUOTE] Please provide evidence that this only happens in the case of a demolition and I'll consider it.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I've never seen this footage before from a Pentagon employee who was working 45 feet from the impact area. There are no plane parts in any of the internal photos, strange

[URL="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979240758347032057&q=source%3A012979256489010802933&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979240758347032057&q=source%3A012979256489010802933&hl=en[/URL]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=chunky;783030]I've never seen this footage before from a Pentagon employee who was working 45 feet from the impact area. There are no plane parts in any of the internal photos, strange

[URL="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979240758347032057&q=source%3A012979256489010802933&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979240758347032057&q=source%3A012979256489010802933&hl=en[/URL][/QUOTE] funny, because there are quite a few plane parts documented here along with eyewitness commentary: [URL="http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm"][COLOR=#9b9b9b]http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm[/COLOR][/URL]

I'm still waiting for your expert evidence about the molten steel coming from the building while it was standing, by the way. I will get around to looking at it, along with the videos of the witnesses you posted.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^^ Ya it was just missing the engines. Also where are all the black boxes?

Miro how would thermite or thermate end up in the wreckage anyways?? What's your theory on that? I mean why do we have to prove without a single doubt that we need a new investigation. I believe any of the arguments would be just cause for a new one.

I mean whether it came from the bottom of the pile or from down the street, as far as I know nobody can get their hands on thermite unless you are in controlled demo or university.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Miroslav;783055]funny, because there are quite a few plane parts documented here along with eyewitness commentary: [URL="http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm"][COLOR=#9b9b9b]http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm[/COLOR][/URL]

I'm still waiting for your expert evidence about the molten steel coming from the building while it was standing, by the way. I will get around to looking at it, along with the videos of the witnesses you posted.[/QUOTE]

Most of the links on that site don't work. The only piece of wreckage I could see that looked like it came from a plane was the wheel and there is only one of them. These could of been brought in and planted. I also see a hole but no area where the wings would of made impact. If I remember correct this area was under reconstruction at the time.

If you look at the area where the 2 planes hit the twin towers the entry point has clearly shows the area where the wings went into the building, not just a round hole. At the Pentagon all I see is a round hole. Did the wings fold up into the undercarriage?

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/aedrive6.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/fuselagefragment_MVC-027S1.jpg[/IMG]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/0901_163.jpg[/IMG]

Most of the heaped scrap is unrecognizable, but there are two pieces of metal bearing yellow-green primer which were not burned thoroughly. Charles Burkhammer similarly noted small lime-green pieces of aircraft interior.

This isn't very convincing either. You could probably ID these parts as Silo or Fork Truck parts if you wanted. Its a just like the plane footage they released, They should have better pictures and video evidence but we are not seeing it. [SIZE=+1]: [/SIZE][IMG]http://www.rense.com/general32/pillarwreckage.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/aedrive5.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/landinggear002.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/pillarwreckage.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/trou1moyenne.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/InteriorDamage5.jpg[/IMG]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Miroslav;783055]

I'm still waiting for your expert evidence about the molten steel coming from the building while it was standing, by the way. I will get around to looking at it, along with the videos of the witnesses you posted.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say I had expert evidence. The official story is that its molten aluminum and not molten steel. Your real dispute seems to be what or who you class as an expert. Don't you find it strange that NIST couldn't recreate their own scenario.

I was looking at this debunking video which features molten aluminum or molten steel falling from the building before it collapses. When they use words like "This is probably due to" & "Its likely that" don't seem very certain to me.

[YOUTUBE]DhHzMttUKO0[/YOUTUBE]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^Guess all of the various articles from all of the various sources regarding the various victims who died on board once the plane hit the pentagon...guess all those articles were made up too, yes?

[url]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0912_disasterngs.html[/url]

[url]http://www.edweek.org/login.html?source=http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2001/09/19/03dc.h21.html&destination=http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2001/09/19/03dc.h21.html&levelId=2100[/url]

[url]http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44325[/url]

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-09-07-911-Pentagon-Memorial_N.html[/url]

[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/09/10/pentagon.survivor/index.html[/url]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;783202]^Guess all of the various articles from all of the various sources regarding the various victims who died on board once the plane hit the pentagon...guess all those articles were made up too, yes?

[URL]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0912_disasterngs.html[/URL]

[URL]http://www.edweek.org/login.html?source=http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2001/09/19/03dc.h21.html&destination=http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2001/09/19/03dc.h21.html&levelId=2100[/URL]

[URL]http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44325[/URL]

[URL]http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-09-07-911-Pentagon-Memorial_N.html[/URL]

[URL]http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/09/10/pentagon.survivor/index.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

No but I'm willing to guess they all sourced their information from the same source, the US Government. I'm not saying them people weren't killed, I'm just questioning that it mite not of been at the Pentagon due to what I think is a serious lack of physical evidence. What you should really be doing is telling your government to shut these people up by showing them clear footage of the the Pentagon Plane & The Wreckage. If they have it they could stop these suspicions immediately but they haven't. What we are left with is some poor debunking theories.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Yao;322522]A while ago I saw a documentary on TV on some kind of paint that they use to protect buildings like the pentagon (it was stated in that same doc that it's used on the Pentagon as well). They showed footage of tests, where they let a bomb go off in front of a garage wall - one treated with the paint, the other not - and it was awesome to see the treated wall bend and bulge, but not break (while the untreated wall was blown to pieces)! They dropped painted bricks of 25 kilos off the 3rd floor of a building and they bounced back up.

If that stuff is really used in the Pentagon, I completely understand the lack of damage.[/QUOTE]

^^ important to keep in mind

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Spend some time debunking this perhaps?

[url]http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm[/url]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;783211]Spend some time debunking this perhaps?

[URL]http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm[/URL][/QUOTE]

There isn't much point. That website looks like it was put together by a 1st year web designer who took a lot of time off. Its says at the beginning of Star Wars along time ago in a galaxy far far away are you going to tell me Star Wars is real to. Lets be honest you could add chewbacca, R2D2 & Yoda to that website it wouldnt make any difference. Just because someone puts nothing more than a spreadsheet on the Internet, it doesnt make the information credible.

Like I posted before what would be more interesting is to get some of the Pentagon witness on film, show them the news footage of the Pentagon before and after the face wall collapsed and ask them to explain how it corresponds with their eye witness accounts.

Faceless websites are pointless for any credibility. Official unbiased investigation, bit more credible.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;783210]^^ important to keep in mind[/QUOTE]

It is if you believe everything someone tells you on the Internet.:what

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Yao;783210]

[I]They dropped painted bricks of 25 kilos off the 3rd floor of a building and they bounced back up.[/I]

[I]If that stuff is really used in the Pentagon, I completely understand the lack of damage.[/I] [/QUOTE]

They should of done a similar experiment where they painted two cars with the paint then rammed them into each other to see who takes the impact. Something always does. Or even just painted the floor the bricks where dropped on to.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

wait a minute are we talking about super duper paint? HAHAAHAHAH

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=runningman;783255]wait a minute are we talking about super duper paint? HAHAAHAHAH[/QUOTE]

Yeah apparently. I'm after some for my house in case it gets struck by an aircraft.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=chunky;783257]Yeah apparently. I'm after some for my house in case it gets struck by an aircraft.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I guess the super duper paint made the 20+ cameras at the pentagon turn off. Also the cameras at the gas station down the street as well as at the Sheraton hotel.

Here you guys go. An independant investigation with eye witnesses such as police officers and so on. This is a very well done scientific report PLEASE WATCH.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FhQc-LJ-o[/YOUTUBE]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=chunky;783227]It is if you believe everything someone tells you on the Internet.:what[/QUOTE]

No, but I do believe Yao saw that documentary, and I do believe the Pentagon was built similar to that of a bunker and I do believe a plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11 because that is the case :lol:.

Guess this newscaster is also lying and essentially damaging his reputation and any credibility his news team has built over the years in Washington, yes?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vxc50xAbk&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Florida just watch the video I posted. It is Scientific.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I would watch the movie if it was about the government paying hijackers to fly planes into the pentagon and wtc...but as Miro said, and I agree, this nonsense about missiles and controlled demo's...frankly it insults your intelligence imo.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

what you won't even watch it. It put together very well. You see you are looking for science to back up your claims (you are biased) where as we are open to any story where the science leads us. It really is a shame when people won't watch or read something that is so pertinent to their history and foreign policy.

For the record this doesn't talk about missiles it just talks about how the gov't story can't be true.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;783262]Guess this newscaster is also lying and essentially damaging his reputation and any credibility his news team has built over the years in Washington, yes?

[YOUTUBE]f0vxc50xAbk[/YOUTUBE][/QUOTE]

The Wings Folded In. Now I'm really scared of flying.

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/fuselagefragment_MVC-027S1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/trou1moyenne.jpg[/IMG]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^So he's simply bold face lying?

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=runningman;783271]what you won't even watch it. It put together very well. You see you are looking for science to back up your claims (you are biased) where as we are open to any story where the science leads us. It really is a shame when people won't watch or read something that is so pertinent to their history and foreign policy.

For the record this doesn't talk about missiles it just talks about how the gov't story can't be true.[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt for a moment that the US gov't keeps 75% of it's intel confidential in order to avoid wide-spread panic. That we can agree on.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;783262]No, but I do believe Yao saw that documentary.. [/QUOTE]

Someone else posted here before that he saw a documentary on Chanel 4 where Dylan Avery openly admitted that he made up everything in his film loose change (unlikely as he went on to make a third edition). Do you believe them as well?

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=floridaorange;783276]^So he's simply bold face lying?[/QUOTE]

Fold Up Wings! another 9/11 Phenomen. I doubt even Miro is going to see this a logical thought.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Magic Paint & Fold Up Wings :roflmao:

Building 7 also hit by aircraft! US Government release photo

[IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p253/71chunky/odds/flying20carpet1.gif[/IMG]

There is no dispute here, the carpet will fold up. Unless its been painted.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

hey chunky did you see the lloyd england interview at the end of that link I posted?? he admits that he was in on it!!! That "his life has changed because of it." He got paid off. Just watch the last 20 mins of it if you don't have the time.