The amount of people I've conversed with from other countries that fully believe in that Zeitgiest "documentary," as if they are in on what [I]really[/I] took place on Sept. 11th. Anyone care to revisit this one?

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Yes, debating the issue is seriously gay. I say we go hardcore and jail anybody who even questions the events of 9/11.

That'll learn em.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^thinking critically is not what I'm on about mate, that I am all for... it's how convinced these alleged "truth seekers" are that 9/11 was a complete setup. I'm just looking to get a sense for why otherwise intelligent individuals would buy into zeitgeist.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I don't buy into zeitgeist a lot of it is bullshit but I am still convinced that 9/11 was a set up of some kind. Why wouldn't it be ... it would most certainly not be the first time something like that happened.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

yup it's a bust.

it's all elementary, (and probationary) for this millennium. this, and almost all conspiracy quackery, and new age peddling, is fodder and sensational investment of the senses in transitory perceptions of the cyclic/spiral incoming forces, or what not. i wouldn't pay head to any of it, but welcome rather the subtle aspirations instead.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=floridaorange;781180]^thinking critically is not what I'm on about mate, that I am all for... it's how convinced these alleged "truth seekers" are that 9/11 was a complete setup. I'm just looking to get a sense for why otherwise intelligent individuals would buy into zeitgeist.[/quote]

The same thing can be said about seemingly intelligent individuals who buy into the bullshit that the government/politicians feed them.

Folks are forced to look for answers elsewhere because they do not believe the "official reports" and who can really blame them?

Governments/leaders cannot be trusted.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^which is actually what I am coming to the conclusion of, which is that most other countries citizens have potentially far lessor trust for their government than we do here in the US.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

yet US citizens should be most or at least equally distrustful of their government...taking lessons from history e.g Watergate etc. So I would say its astonishing that you seem to think that the US citizens should trust their government. I distrust all governments not just my own.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^It's unfair for me to cast judgement based on a few international conversations I've had on 9/11 and the "documentary" zietgiest, but I just find it interesting that people from other countries buy into it at all...there's something fascinating about that, guess I'm having trouble putting my finger on what exactly it is (hence the thread title).

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Well let me ask you this...why did the US and Britain invade Iraq?

p.s. I don't fall for any of it Zeitgeist is just a piece of counter propaganda...which in my eyes is a welcome change of scenery but it does not mean I believe it.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I find it strange that anyone can go along with the official story. There are so many questions left unanswered and it doesn't stop at the Zeitgiest documentary. Bush's admission that he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV before entering the classroom, the fact nor him nor cheney would go on record when interviewed about 9/11. Along with all the usual stuff, lack of photographic evidence of the plane before it hit the Pentagon, the collapse of building 7 etc. So many other things.

All these people are only asking for a proper investigation with 100% transparency and [COLOR=red][U]all[/U][/COLOR] their questions answered. You mite think they are wack jobs but don't you think people like the Jersey Widows deserve that ?

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Shpira;781326]Well let me ask you this...why did the US and Britain invade Iraq? .[/QUOTE]

Please elaborate, there is plenty of outlets within reach to know why, so maybe I don't understand the question.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

well the I still don't know why...so tell me? As far as I know its about the non existent wmd which both governments knew were non existent before they invaded Iraq. So again I still don't know why "we" went to war with them.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

It is simple guys it is called Imperialism.

Also the world doesn't trust the US gov't because of all the terror they have caused (and causing around the world).. Remember Saddam Hussein killed 50,000 people by gasing them. That was wrong. But to think that over 1.5 million Iraqis have lost their life since the US has been there is even more disturbing.

Also the oil isn't bad either.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=floridaorange;781320]^which is actually what I am coming to the conclusion of, which is that most other countries citizens have potentially far lessor trust for their government than we do here in the US.[/quote] Not even going to go into the Zeitgeist thing again... we've already discussed it, it has ridiculous flaws in it, and the people who believe in it...well, good for them, I guess.

Same for 9-11... we've been through that a zillion times and at this point you just have to believe whatever you're going to believe, like religion. It's one of those things that some people will always claim was a setup, like landing on the moon.

But this notion of people in other countries trusting their government less than in the US is actually documented, I believe. There are polls and such that you could probably find online - I think I recall reading something along these lines.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

lol you can't really compare the three IMO. Landing on the moon, religion or 9/11. Very different.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=Shpira;781458]lol you can't really compare the three IMO. Landing on the moon, religion or 9/11. Very different.[/quote] Not really.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Just to clarify Miro, you're saying nobody knows all of the inner workings of 9/11, but a conspiracy it was not. Going fwd, the world will believe what they want to. I can live w. that.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=Miroslav;781490]Not really.[/quote] Well religion can never be proven...its really faith backed by no empirical evidence. Moon landings can be proven with evidence collected there dirt, images etc. 9/11 can be proven as well but the US government chooses to withhold tapes documents etc. So it is very different from one another.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=floridaorange;781496]Just to clarify Miro, you're saying nobody knows all of the inner workings of 9/11, but a conspiracy it was not. Going fwd, the world will believe what they want to. I can live w. that.[/quote] Well, that's just my current opinion...but what do I really know; I don't know the inner workings, of course. I've seen the expert commentary for and against; at the end of the day, it just doesn't pass the common sense test for me.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^i got into this debate about structural engineering basically and how the towers fell blah blah blah...why is it so difficult to believe for people?

In my humble opinion, if a large aircraft runs into a building way up high in the sky (1) and causes massive fires that engulf several floors destroying the structural integrity of those initial floors (2) a domino type of implosion is going to follow (3) this is logical to me.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

No it isn't very logical when those floors that "Domino" give absolutely zero resistance on the way down. It fell at the speed of gravity. When a building is structurally damaged it falls over. It doesn't fall into its footprint either. That only happens in a controlled demo..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JAkE-691vs[/youtube]

It also doesn't get pulverized. There is no logic for the concrete to explode in mid air as well. They didn't find a phone or a computer. It was pulverized. and no it wasn't designed that way either.. It had 47 steel columns in the center. It was built to take multiple plane hits. I don't believe the gov't did it though. I just want a new real investigation.

Just my 2 cents..

Re: you know what's astonishing?

If tons of exploding melted steal is falling in on itself from the TOP, why would it topple? I just think that part of the argument is the silliest...how many buildings like the twin towers have had jets fly into them? If a train hard ran into the tower at the bottom, a topple yes, but at the top? I'm no architect, but...

Re: you know what's astonishing?

exploding melting steel? Kerosene doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel.. The building was made to withstand multiple hits from planes. The top part should have fallen over not even the whole building.

And there wasn't any resistance from the floors as it was plowing through each floor? Why don't you just go talk to a scientist or an architect rather then just guessing strongly. I have asked scientists and architects and it doesn't make sense to them.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^I'm actually not interested in debating that part of the movie, mostly the part about the US government having some role in 9/11 and the reason for why internationals would believe such bs.

This looks about right to me btw:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Mhhvl7vWk[/YOUTUBE]

As you can see, the towers do fall to the side and then down.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Ya I agree but there should have been resistance from each floor as it went down. It shouldn't have fallen at free fall speed. I am also refering to building 7 that is the one that gets. I mean a plane didn't even hit that building.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lESol88wOi0[/youtube]

But I don't think the government did it.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

IMO the evidence that there is something wrong with 9/11 is [U]OVERWHELMING[/U] that said I don't mean that the US government carried off the attack on its own although I wouldn't exclude that the element who are normally employed for the government had a big role. I honestly believe that you have to have something wrong with you to believe the official story. I know for a fact that the steel columns of the WTO would have managed to withstand the impact. Even my dad when he saw it was like "this is complete bullshit" and he's been in large scale construction for like 25 years.

In my opinion this was most likely done by people who stand to profit from an increase in US military spending...this is big money! We are talking about hundreds of billions $. The fact that the official 9/11 commission (which I have read in full) makes Absolutely no sense of the events whatsoever is just an insult to anyone who dares to think independently.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^^ I Know. I love how in the commission they just decided to leave the 47 steel colomuns out because they couldn't explain why it imploded..

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=runningman;781525]I have asked scientists and architects and it doesn't make sense to them.[/quote] You do realize, of course, that there are also tons and tons of scientists and architects who say that it makes perfect sense... Just saying...there are expert opinions on both sides.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Ya but they always leave the core pillars out. They really can't explain that.

[IMG]http://www.911hoax.com/wtc-core.jpg[/IMG]

All I want is another investigation using "science" not visual theories. The world deserves another investigation since the last one was a disaster and so much has happened in the name of 9/11. Even if the concrete did "pancake" the core should still be standing.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=floridaorange;781526]^I'm actually not interested in debating that part of the movie, mostly the part about the US government having some role in 9/11 and the reason for why internationals would believe such bs.

This looks about right to me btw:

[youtube]V9Mhhvl7vWk[/youtube]

As you can see, the towers do fall to the side and then down.[/quote]

That video his hilarious. Thats the worst debunking video yet. It fell into its foot print.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=floridaorange;781526]^I'm actually not interested in debating that part of the movie, mostly the part about the US government having some role in 9/11 and the reason for why internationals would believe such bs. [/quote]

They originally put Henry Kissinger in charge of the 9/11 commission who had had business dealings with the Bin Laden's. Bush and Cheney could of gone on record and been interviewed in public separately, instead of together in a room where only select people where invited and no transcript was ever made. Bush could also explain how he watched the first plane hit the tower on TV (The Terrible Pilot Quote) before going to the school where he was at when he was told about the second plane. And that's just for starters

Check out 5 min's 19 seconds

[youtube]ALtNYBX7OmM[/youtube]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

you can also see the molten metal in that video at 1:34. Molten metal could only happen using thermite or thermate.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=Miroslav;781499]Well, that's just my current opinion...but what do I really know; I don't know the inner workings, of course. I've seen the expert commentary for and against; at the end of the day, it just doesn't pass the common sense test for me.[/quote]

When you have 2 groups of people with different opinions wouldn't it be better for the 2 groups to work together to come up with the answers.

What sort of expert would you have to hear from to change your opinion? What would their credentials have to be?

Re: you know what's astonishing?

That debunking channel on youtube is ace.

Anyone see a plane? I'm sure the Pentagon could of given us some better footage.

[youtube]lsWZHKIg3Cs[/youtube]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=chunky;781791]When you have 2 groups of people with different opinions wouldn't it be better for the 2 groups to work together to come up with the answers.[/quote] Sometimes that is not possible.

[quote=chunky;781791]What sort of expert would you have to hear from to change your opinion? What would their credentials have to be? [/quote] I guess an obvious way would be if a serious majority of qualified expert opinions out there had reached the conspiracy conclusion. And it doesn't seem to me that they have; I think the opposite is in fact true. I know there are engineers and architects who are part of a group that supports the conspiracy theories, but there is also a [I]whole [/I]bunch who have debunked a lot of wild claims. For instance, claims like "the planes couldn't have brought down the buildings" and "the fire couldn't melt the steel", while technically true, have already been reasonably refuted as misguided and inaccurate with regard to the [I]conclusions[/I] that conspiracy theorists reach. Same with the whole "the building should [I]only[/I] have fallen over, not down" claim. And yet people keep repeating them over and over and over again.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Where are you getting these debunked theories from because most of the debunking sites I've seen seem less convincing?

I would be interested as to what you think of Bush's claim that he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV before entering the classroom.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[quote=chunky;781816]Where are you getting these debunked theories from because most of the debunking sites I've seen seem less convincing?[/quote] Just do a google search and you'll find a bunch... the Popular Mechanics collection, debunking911.com, and 911myths are probably the bigger, more popular ones. There are a lot of government-related studies, which of course any proper conspiracy theorist would write off as biased. Of course, there are also sites out there that try to debunk the 9-11 conspiracy theories with more even inaccurate information than what is listed on many of the conspiracy sites. I've looked through some, but I haven't been following any of them very closely.

And I honestly don't know much about what Bush said or was smoking on that day, but I would take everything that ever came out of the man's mouth with a grain of salt for one reason: the guy wasn't too bright, and he said stupid, contradictory shit on an almost daily basis. Maybe I'll look into it more when I get home, I can't here at work. All I know is that there seems to be a lot of evidence that planes really did hit the buildings, that fire can structurally weaken steel, and that a high-load structural failure across the diameter of a tall building may [I]look[/I] like a demolition but that doesn't mean it necessarily is one.

A conspiracy theory I could at least swallow would be that the government paid some nuts to hijack American planes and fly them into the buildings, which subsequently fell down from the structural damage as a result of the uncontrolled fire. That would make sense...but that's almost never what I hear being claimed... it's always something with a little bit more Hollywood action and excitement to it.

Re: you know what's astonishing?

[QUOTE=Miroslav;781822]A conspiracy theory I could at least swallow would be that the government paid some nuts to hijack American planes and fly them into the buildings, which subsequently fell down from the structural damage as a result of the uncontrolled fire. That would make sense...but that's almost never what I hear being claimed... it's always something with a little bit more Hollywood action and excitement to it.[/QUOTE]

Agreed

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Here is just one example of what to me is a very sensible, logical assessment of this claim that "molten steel at the base of the towers proves that it was brought down by explosives."

[url]http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/canofficefirescauselargesteelcolumnsandb[/url]

Also, note that at the very bottom are two photos where the now-infamous professor Steven E. Jones used in one of his papers and his lectures under the claim of hot (possibly molten) metal in the WTC rubble.

...and then the article nicely points out that the first photo was taken out of context from a bbc article and is clearly that of ironworkers / welders who are using a blowtorch to start clearing away the wreckage, and the second one is so ludicrously taken out of context that I shouldn't have to even explain it to anybody.

This is what is being passed off as good, reliable research on the truth behind 9-11? :lol: Please. I know this is only one piece of the myriad of stuff that Jones claims, but this example should serve as a good indication as to Steven E. Jones's personal integrity and the rigorousness of his research.

And yet no conspiracy theorist ever talks about this. Funny how that works. :roll: