[url]http://www.heritage.org/33-minutes/[/url]

The whole site is just 100% Bullshit...its crazy its like page after page of retarded rubbish.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

are you fuckn nuts? Were you born after 9/11/2001? So you think there is no country out there trying to make another attack on us?

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

They are obviously pushing the whole Bush missile defense idea, which I don't necessarily support... but the fundamental premise that we are open to the possibility of significant destruction from nuclear warfare is neither new nor outlandish imo. Humanity has possessed the ability to bomb itself into nuclear winter now for over half a century.

Up until now, self interest-driven paradigms such as "mutually assured destruction" have enabled us to avoid dangerous escalations, but you could argue that the probability of risk is technically growing as proliferation of weapons continues to increase (especially among non-Westernized developing nations), terrorist groups become more agile and capable, and nuclear technology becomes more potent and portable.

I wouldn't write the whole scenario off as crazy. If folks like the 9-11 terrorists got their hands on a portable nuclear device and had the opportunity to use it, do you really doubt that they would do so?

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Miroslav;738793]They are obviously pushing the whole Bush missile defense idea, which I don't necessarily support... but the fundamental premise that we are open to the possibility of significant destruction from nuclear warfare is neither new nor outlandish imo. Humanity has possessed the ability to bomb itself into nuclear winter now for over half a century.

Up until now, self interest-driven paradigms such as "mutually assured destruction" have enabled us to avoid dangerous escalations, but you could argue that the probability of risk is technically growing as proliferation of weapons continues to increase (especially among non-Westernized developing nations), terrorist groups become more agile and capable, and nuclear technology becomes more potent and portable.

I wouldn't write the whole scenario off as crazy. If folks like the 9-11 terrorists got their hands on a portable nuclear device and had the opportunity to use it, do you really doubt that they would do so?[/quote]

holy shit, we agreed on half of this. :D

i dont care what president puts a missile defense system up, but the reality is, it would be worse to have a nuclear bomb exploding over us in the atmosphere causing destruction with an EMP. Check out a book called the second after. Better safe than sorry. Our govenrment knew we could be attacked via comercial planes and did nothing to protect us until it happened.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

You guys are missing the point completely. The shocking thing is the tactics they attempt to use which you two seemed to have gulped up without question. Of course there is the possibility of all of us dying in some nuclear disaster but its equal or less to the possibility of us dying in a plain crash or from an LSD overdose or whatever.

Its like "in 33 minutes YOU WILL DIE" and they have the clock ticking and everything...its like typical scare tactics. Increase your military budget so we (the Military Industrial Complex) can take more of your money from taxes and spend it on some shit which will be obsolete in like 5 years.

thats kinda waht I meant...anyway the whole sight is a joke if you ask me. I went to it as part of my research on media ownership concentration as they represent the elite/big business interest on the topic so I chcked out this vidio while I was there. The Heretige foundation my ass...their main argument for deregualtion of the media is that its based on old rulles made before 1940's...I wonder what they would say about the second ammendment then LOL!

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

BTW kinda of topic... do you guys know of clear documented examples where the media had a negative influence on the quality of democracy in the US i.e. directed public opinion one way or another for political gain? Like spreading rumors or discrediting a politician for his beliefs because they might contradict the interests of the media organization?

The more recent the better really...

any help would be great

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[QUOTE=Shpira;738830] Of course there is the possibility of all of us dying in some nuclear disaster but its equal or less to the possibility of us dying in a plain crash or from an LSD overdose or whatever. [/QUOTE]

the chances of dying from taking too much LSD are slim and none. things can definitely get super fucking weird for awhile if you eat too much, but it's not going to kill you.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

Yeah...that was kinda my point :roll: :)

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

no, people die in plane crashes way more often because we have lots of data indicating that people do actually die. an overdose of LSD doesn't happen. you can die from taking LSD, but that's just because you thought you could fly off a building, not because the drugs caused your body to stop. i get what you're trying to say, im just saying the analogy isn't accurate.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

Ok...lol I was trying to make a progression from something that people actually die from to something people don't die from...as I believe that a percentage of people that have died from a nuclear attack is very small indeed as the only people that died from one are those killed by the US in ww2...anyway your right and I am wrong. you win.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[img]http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Kip----Yesss--napoleon-dynamite-387390_89_120.gif[/img]

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=speciale;738799]holy shit, we agreed on half of this. :D

i dont care what president puts a missile defense system up, but the reality is, it would be worse to have a nuclear bomb exploding over us in the atmosphere causing destruction with an EMP. Check out a book called the second after. Better safe than sorry. Our govenrment knew we could be attacked via comercial planes and did nothing to protect us until it happened.[/quote]

i really dont think a missile defense system for the USA would do anything. the only way it would protect us is if one of the major countries that have the capability to hit us (eg.. cross the pacific and atlantic oceans) and this would only happen if it was an all out war. i think, for the most part, that countries are afraid to use a nuke... if one country uses one then everyone else would.

if a third world country terrorist got a hold of one, they would sneak it in and detonate it in a big city.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=ddr;738868]i really dont think a missile defense system for the USA would do anything. the only way it would protect us is if one of the major countries that have the capability to hit us (eg.. cross the pacific and atlantic oceans) and this would only happen if it was an all out war. i think, for the most part, that countries are afraid to use a nuke... if one country uses one then everyone else would.

if a third world country terrorist got a hold of one, they would sneak it in and detonate it in a big city.[/quote]

my point is it is better to be safe than sorry. We lose nothing by protecting ourselves without affecting the lives of other nations. No one can blame us for that.

Right now, I believe with this administration, we are an open target. Its bad enough bush left the Mexican border wide open, but now I feel all our borders are wide open.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

:runningman:

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

I love how it is called "missile defense." So it can't be used for a first offensive strike?? Like they say the best defense is a great offense!!

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=speciale;738878]my point is it is better to be safe than sorry. We lose nothing by protecting ourselves without affecting the lives of other nations. No one can blame us for that.

Right now, I believe with this administration, we are an open target. Its bad enough bush left the Mexican border wide open, but now I feel all our borders are wide open.[/quote]

our borders have always been open though... whats the difference between now and before with the exception of radical islam people.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Shpira;738830]Of course there is the possibility of all of us dying in some nuclear disaster but its equal or less to the possibility of us dying in a plain crash or from an LSD overdose or whatever.

Its like "in 33 minutes YOU WILL DIE" and they have the clock ticking and everything...its like typical scare tactics.[/quote] Look, I don't have any evidence to tell you that the threat of nuclear war is xx.xxxxx% today or whatever. And I'm not saying I agree with those guys on their particular assessment of the threat and of the actions that they want to take.

But at the same time, on what basis do you conclude that the risk is "equal or less" the probability of dying in a plane crash?

Again, I don't know what the exact risk is, but things have changed from the 1970s and 1980s. But the three things I mentioned before (proliferation of weapons among developing nations, terrorists, much more destructive / mobile technology) suggests to me that the threat is likely more difficult to combat today than it was when it was just Russia and the US with a bunch of oversized ICBMs. The principle of 'Mutually Assured Destruction' doesn't apply very well to high-tech terrorists who aren't clearly affiliated with any one nation, and today we have highly mobile nuclear devices the size of a large suitcase that can fry your eyeballs at five miles away. This suggests that the risk of nuclear detonation somewhere in the coming decades is [I]probably[/I] rising. Just because it hasn't happened isn't the best basis for concluding that it's not a real and growing risk for the future...imo

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

Yeah but this video deals only with ICBM's i.e. 33 minutes for it to fly from anywhere in the world and hit a major US city. My point is just that dwelling on such issues is just plain crazy...its like a generally accepted and encouraged form of paranoia. Its exactly the same as the cold war...fear = population control. I don't think anyone spends as much money as the US on defense yet it is the US citizens who always feel like they are under threat...its a joke. You need to top and think who is responsible for installing that fear in you and why.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Shpira;739008] I don't think anyone spends as much money as the US on defense yet it is the US citizens who always feel like they are under threat...its a joke. You need to top and think who is responsible for installing that fear in you and why.[/quote]

So would you rather they keep everyone in the dark on these matters? I am sure there are thousands of things none of us know about in terms of threats.

Look at the attacks so far and the plots broken up by the government. Not just in the US but overseas in Britain as well. The fear is there already and it is not the government causing the fear. It is the extremist who vow to attack our country.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Shpira;739008]Yeah but this video deals only with ICBM's i.e. 33 minutes for it to fly from anywhere in the world and hit a major US city. My point is just that dwelling on such issues is just plain crazy...its like a generally accepted and encouraged form of paranoia. Its exactly the same as the cold war...fear = population control. I don't think anyone spends as much money as the US on defense yet it is the US citizens who always feel like they are under threat...its a joke. You need to top and think who is responsible for installing that fear in you and why.[/quote] Of course fear can be used to misguide people. I agree with you there. I'm just not so sure that dwelling on these issues is plain crazy. They're a sad reality that we should probably deal with [I]somehow[/I]...

As I said before... I think that if some folks like the 9-11 terrorists got their hands on a suitcase-sized nuclear device and managed to bring it into a major US city...they'd probably detonate it and kill millions.

Another way to think about it is this: we've had two major world wars in our history. Chances are fair that we will have a third at some point. The last time we had one, most of the world wasn't armed to the teeth with 100 megaton nuclear bombs. If things get really dicey, will [I]everyone[/I] maintain the discipline of keeping a leash on their big weapons and not pulling the trigger? I don't know...

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=speciale;739036]So would you rather they keep everyone in the dark on these matters? I am sure there are thousands of things none of us know about in terms of threats.

Look at the attacks so far and the plots broken up by the government. Not just in the US but overseas in Britain as well. The fear is there already and it is not the government causing the fear. It is the extremist who vow to attack our country.[/quote]

The solution is not killing the extremists or building impenetrable shields around our countries...its re-evaluating our foreign policy and understanding that people hate our nations for a reason not because of our "freedom".

I think that if you want to look at the issue of terrorism you should look at it in detail. I for one would like a bunch of questions answered before I believe this so called terrorist threat...we in reality do not have any real concrete information about planed attacks on our countries or the ones that have been carried out. Its all under a veil of secrecy called national security...so what I am supposed to trust my government with taking away my liberties one by one and spending an increasing amount of taxes on weapons and surveillance equipment so that they can "protect" me. I say fuck that. I have a deep distrust towards all governments and I believe that they do not serve the general interest of the public but rather their campaign contributors and companies that offer them positions after they had retired in exchange for political favors.

In essence I spend more time thinking about how the government fucks me over every single day one way or the other rather than thinking about some cave dwellers planing the end of the world. This terorist threat is exactly the same as was the so called communist threat...bullshit. Evil vs Good. Do you guys really belive in that shit? Its like so ridicilous... classical example of demagoguery for retarded masses.

As for Miro's point about the suitcase size bomb...I don't think that would have ever happened. Its far too complex and difficult to buy weapons grade plutonium.

The world war 3 issue is of no concern to me, honestly...if it happens it will be the end of all civilization I am sure; therefore there is absolutly nothing that can be done to prevent it. So why worry about that?

p.s. the reason we are sold this bullshit about the terrorist hating our way of life is because if ppl knew the history of the developed world they would understand that if "evil" did exist our governments and way of life would represent it.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Shpira;739120]As for Miro's point about the suitcase size bomb...I don't think that would have ever happened. Its far too complex and difficult to buy weapons grade plutonium.[/quote] Right. You don't trust the government to tell you about airplanes, so why do you suddenly trust government so much with weapons grade plutonium? :lol: It's only ultimately as hard to buy that stuff [I]as the seller makes it[/I]. You get some technology in the hands of the wrong group of people (not necessarily ones tied to a particular government), and believe me...deals can [I]and will[/I] be made. It seems to me a bit naive to trust that it couldn't / wouldn't happen.

[quote=Shpira;739120]The world war 3 issue is of no concern to me, honestly...if it happens it will be the end of all civilization I am sure; therefore there is absolutly nothing that can be done to prevent it. So why worry about that?[/quote] well, ok then. If you had said from the start, "I recognize the real threat that improved technology and proliferation of nuclear weapons poses to our future survivability, but I just don't give a shit," this thread could have been a lot shorter. :lol:

As for all the rest of the stuff about the US being the root of all evil on Planet Earth and Communists being so great...we've already been through that, don't feel like touching that pile of poo again right now. Anyways, it doesn't directly change the fact that the nuclear threat is real in the 21st century.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Miroslav;739144]Right. You don't trust the government, so why do you suddenly trust government so much with weapons grade plutonium? :lol: It's only as hard to buy that stuff [I]as the seller makes it[/I]. You get some technology in the hands of the wrong group of people (not necessarily ones tied to a particular government), and believe me...deals can [I]and will[/I] be made. It really only takes a relatively small number of people.[/quote]

Because IMO its counter to their interests...now. It might not be so later.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Shpira;739146]Because IMO its counter to their interests...now. It might not be so later.[/quote] There are all kinds of ways for stuff to be stolen or to disappear, especially from developing countries that don't properly invest to safeguard their nuclear resources or that face high levels of corruption. It only takes a very small group of people and modern technology makes the right equipment much more mobile than in the past.

out b4 ppl start saying I sound too much like runningman. :lol:

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

[quote=Shpira;739146]Because IMO its counter to their interests...now. It might not be so later.[/quote]

yep and just like there is no way one man can convince a nation of people to try and exterminate an entire race. shit like that never happens.

Re: How retarded are these ppl???

hehe...well if you believe history books your government did not know anything about that at the time so it continued trading with the Nazi's...its ok though...now we have global news networks to keep us informed...we can trust those right? Anyway thats completely beside the point...it was good business for everyone for a while...when they became a threat the Nazi's were dealt with.

...believe what you will. The order of today as always is business and a nuclear attack is not good for business its as simple as that.