I have heard everybody now saying this and saying that but i want to hear everybody's exact stance on:

1. Where do you stand on the war on Iraq?
2. Where do you stand on the war on terror?
3. What is your plan to prevent another 9-11?
4. Do you think that the war will end after (if) Iran?

Just so we are all on the same pg from now on..

I completely support the war on Iraq.. Having a dictator who gases his own country can't be trusted and is not helping the overall goal of world peace.. In order for world peace he had to be removed at some time.. I support the USA in whatever they see fit.. I am completly behind George Bush and i feel he is the right leader in these times of war.. You need a tough Texan in a war like this.. Plus they have a little thing called the CIA and The base in the mountain in colorado what's it called.. you get it.. there information i can guarantee you is better then ours.. My plan is the plan of George Bush

1. To remove Saddam out of power and gain an allie(homebase) in the middle of the middle east.. Now they can attack anywhere at anytime..
2. To go into Iran and clean out the extremists there trying to get there hands on nuclear weapons. Also in this time have Canada come on board (Our PM meets Bush Nov. 30) in this war to help foreign relations.
3. Let France get taken over by the muslims because France is a waste of space anyway and it won't affect my life at all. They would still be under the Nazi's if it wasn't for us- so this time let them go.
4. Let Russia fuck some shit up in Chechnya to take the heat off the USA.
5. Have CHina and Russia help in the fight against North Korea. ^^^ these are the ways to prevent another attack..

and no the war won't end after Iran gets dealt with.

PS- Please keep all replies at first only on "your stance" on everything then we will argue about it later.. I have been asking for weeks what peoples plan was to fix this so i want to hear it now..

:shock:

I'll post mine as soon as I am fit to do some hard thinking again...been drinking and working in between the drinking all weekend long and no sleep. My last post was long enough... :drink:

Get ready for some bashing over points 2 and 3. :Naughty:

The solution = the USA and China creating a pact and splitting the rest of the world up between the two of them.

difficult questions indeed.....hard to answer....i have to seat, have a beer, smoke a joint..... but what you are saying runningman is the easiest solution. violence is not the solution. to prevent another attack we must think in long term solutions, not to destroy any country that is different. If the United States keep destroying muslims families, you are only creating more hate.

if you have a roach problem, you dont kill each roach as you see it, you go after the nest.......

not my quote, was my commanders quote, but holds a lot more revelence in these past few years. granted its the BS world policy that keeps dropping the crumbs that feed the roaches.

please guys just say where u stand.. .we will argue about it later..

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

as bad as it sounds i am starting to realize we cant just be reactive to these things, just look what happened today

a sunni cleric who was going to help barter a peace deal between the warring factions of the iraqi tribes was killed in his home. maybe we need to root out these people who are now simply trying to prevent peace.

in terms of IRAN, i think they should just let a large UN inspection force into the country, i mean soon, like tomorrow, just open up to what you have, and if the whole nuclear issue with them is truly based on power and infrastructure needs, they should simply ask to be allowed to do it, and offer up the willingness to be overseen, and i dont mean by the the USA, i would send in the multinational committee to be there for a few years and monitor the nuclear power plants. if you have nothing to hide , then allow someone to review it.

OK, let's have a bash at this...

There is no simple solution to the Middle East ? if there was it would have been done.

Firstly, the establishment of a Palestinian state would go a long towards helping things. How this is done though is anyone's guess :?

I never agreed with the war in Iraq ? certainly not the reasons for going to war ? but as it's happened the US needs to see it through.

Saddam was a bad guy but wasn't a threat to world peace and the gassing of his own people went on when he was a 'friend' of the West. And what about North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma and the other repressive regimes?

[quote] Amnesty International, which criticized and drew attention to the brutality of the Saddam Hussein regime long before the governments which launched the 2003 attack on Iraq, estimated that violent deaths attributable to Saddam's government numbered at most in the hundreds during the years immediately leading up to 2003.[/quote] [url]www.iraqbodycount.net/press[/url]

Iran is an entirely different question to Iraq ? and you have to understand their feelings towards the US... Admittedly, the ruling clerics have stirred this up but in 2000 Madeleine Albright admitted US mistakes in their relationship ? I won't go into all of it. Not that this excuses what appears to be deceitful behaviour, but aggression at this stage would be unjust.

The US relationship with Saudi Arabia needs to be examined ? one of the most repressive regimes in the Middle East is a close ally? And most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi... :?

It's simply too big a question ? there are a lot of relationships that badly need repairing. More wars and invasions will simply stir up more hatred, death and destruction.

As for your pathetic comments about France, well it just shows what an asshole you are. Seeing as you like to see the world in simplistic black-and-white terms, France helped the US gain independence from Britain, the US returned the favour during WWII. Have you ever even been to France?

And do you even know shit about Chechnya? :evil:

[quote=Marimba] If the United States keep destroying muslims families, you are only creating more hate.[/quote]

sorry but you gotta ignore the religion. we are going after VIOLENT HOTILE PEOPLE, who happen to be muslim. if we were killing muslims, why arent we doing it here as well.

[quote]As for your pathetic comments about France, well it just shows what an asshole you are. Seeing as you like to see the world in simplistic black-and-white terms, France helped the US gain independence from Britain, the US returned the favour during WWII. Have you ever even been to France?[/quote]

fuck france. ungrateful, what will happen if they get attacked severly? they will head over to the UN begging for help. that place is a fucking waste.

[quote=thesightless] [quote]As for your pathetic comments about France, well it just shows what an asshole you are. Seeing as you like to see the world in simplistic black-and-white terms, France helped the US gain independence from Britain, the US returned the favour during WWII. Have you ever even been to France?[/quote]

fuck france. ungrateful, what will happen if they get attacked severly? they will head over to the UN begging for help. that place is a fucking waste.[/quote]

If you don't agree with the French government then fine but don't single out the people... and what good did it do them anyway? There are other countries worth wasting your time over :?

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

i said it in the same jest that the south park boys said fuck canada personally, i couldnt give a flying fuck about france. i dont care either way, not saying i wouldnt feel terrible if something happened to innocents.

Mixu you never answered #3.. actually you didn't answer any of them.. as for France that is your opinion.. myself i don't care for France that much because you can't trust them.. If i could cut off Quebec i would.. so would most of canada.. as for Chechnya i know some but i would def. like to learn more.. i wish i didn't feel this way but i strongly am starting to lose faith in the world.. I want to hear what Davetly, Civic Zen, robpr. and Yao have to say.. I like all different cultures taling about this so i can maybe see it from a different point of view.. but mixu you don't have a plan and i don't trust that becaue Osama has a plan and if we don't we lose..

And yours IS a plan? :NotMe:

There's no quick fix...

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

OK runningman, you want my opinions. . . .

1. Yes i supported the war with Iraq, i also walked around for a week with a gas masks in fear of a direct attack by Saddam, but thats another story!

I supported the war for a number of reasons, listed here in no particular order:- a. Saddam was the largest benefactor of Palestinian homicide bombers who saw their sole purpose on this planet as blowing themselves up on buses, in cafes, in discos full of Israelis. Although a finiancial value can't really be put on a life hard currency goes a long way in the areas controled by the PA,

b. It was clear, and still is, that Saddam had developed a programme of WMD's. His own actions in not allowing UN weapon inspectors to continue their job and seek out these tools of death warrented military action by themselves, as it was a breach of the agreement that ended Gulf War 1.

c. Saddam's regime was far more brutal then many of us want to admit. The stories of torture, rape and murder convinced me that the Middle East specifically, and the world generally, would be a better place with him removed.

2. Yes i support the war on terror, but my support did not start with 9/11. When i lived in the UK i supported successive government actions against the IRA, since i've been living in Israel i've supported successive government actions against Hamas etc.

Lets remember that many countries face terrorism, some internal and some external. For me terrorism is partly about trying to overthrow democratic govermnents by undemocratic means. That said i also believe in the old addage that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. What diffrentiates between the two is when 'terrrorist' actions are targetted on civilians and not govenment or military targets. You stop, in my opinion, from being a freedom fighter the moment you target civillians.

3. As horrific and disgusting 9/11 was, i class every terrorist action in the same way. For me there is no difference whether one person of 5000 people are murdered, Terrorism is terrorism. New York, Madrid, Moscow, Bali, Tel Aviv, London. . . .the list of places that have suffered at the hands of terrorist over the last 40 years is growing annually.

I don't have a solution to prevent more attacks, certainly not one which is achievable in the short term. If you want to look at long term solutions then we need to ensure that every person on this planet not only has enough food to eat but also has an education . That might be good starting place.

4. I've talked about IRan before in another thread, i'm not going to repeat myself!

Just some thoughts!

[quote]c. Saddam's regime was far more brutal then many of us want to admit. The stories of torture, rape and murder convinced me that the Middle East specifically, and the world generally, would be a better place with him removed. [/quote]

I was thinking of the comparisons of him(Saddam) and Zarqawi(the terrorist circiling Fallujah recently). Think of the 20 slaughterhouses that encompassed Fallujah before we moved in. Gasses and mixes were found in bombmaking factories in Fallujah.

Kind of reminds you of Saddams tyranny, doesn't it?

Isn't the mindset set at parallels as that of Zarqawi?

Its wonderful talking with someone halfway around the world in Israel about what we face today..

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

[list]1. Where do you stand on the war on Iraq?

Against it. Started on false or at least unproven accusations that Saddam had WMD?s, and now that they haven?t been found (no, I don?t see the Sarin vials as the 500 metric tonnes of WMD?s expected) it has switched to: the world is a better place without Saddam. Lame excuse.

2. Where do you stand on the war on terror?

All in favour. As long as the right tools are used to find and destroy them. So no invasions and regime changes. Intelligence and co?peration between police forces and intelligence bureaus internationally have yielded and will yield more results, with less collateral damage.

3. What is your plan to prevent another 9-11?

Difficult question. It?s not about a plan, it?s about creating an environment in which terrorism doesn?t flourish. The way the US is dealing with this, is actually nurturing the moral feeding grounds of terrorism: it doesn?t try in any way to generate understanding among the extremists, to change their perception of the Western culture. At this moment, all prejudices any extremist could possibly have are confirmed by the way the US is handling things. The only thing keeping Europe from going the same way is it?s moderated reaction on the current events.

So maybe a different approach to the Middle East would help, and putting pressure on both Sharon and the new leader of the PA to get the peace process going again? And not attacking Iran, but increasing the effort to leave behind an economically healthy and politically stable Iraq should have priority. That would be a better way of convincing other Arab countries of the good intentions of the US and Europe.

4. Do you think that the war will end after (if) Iran?

I hope before Iran. An invasion in Iran is unjustifyable, certainly now it has agreed with Germany, France and Great-Britain that it will stop enriching Uranium. If it doesn?t stop after Iraq, it?s not gonna stop after Iran either. In that case I fear total crusade into the Arab world.

I still hope and think the reform-oriented forces will prevail in Iran, it?s just a matter of time. Not every revolution takes place in a few days. Go Khatami, Go!! (sorry, I just let myself go there?)[/list]

Other than that: You owe your freedom to France, so leave them out of it. France and Germany give Europe it?s political face internationally, the UK is nothing more than the US?s lapdog at the moment. I wish my country would have a little French temper in politics. They don?t give a shit about what the rest thinks, just like the US.

I hope the Canadian PM speaks French. :mrgreen:

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

[quote=Yao]

So maybe a different approach to the Middle East would help, and putting pressure on both Sharon and the new leader of the PA to get the peace process going again? [/quote]

You know what my friend, i am getting sick and tired of comments like this. Review history. Every time Israel (regardless of who was Prime Minister) engaged in, what it thought was, serious negotiations, the door was firmly slammed shut by the PA. Let the international community once and for all take this opportunity and put the pressure for once on the PA. Let what ever Palestinian leadership that emerges disable its terror groups and you will see the citizens of this beautiful country of mine will put pressure on Sharon.

The only bloody reason he was elected was because of the PA's removing its self from the peace process and reverting back to terrorism.

[quote=Yao]Other than that: You owe your freedom to France, so leave them out of it. France and Germany give Europe it?s political face internationally, the UK is nothing more than the US?s lapdog at the moment. I wish my country would have a little French temper in politics. They don?t give a shit about what the rest thinks, just like the US.

I hope the Canadian PM speaks French. :mrgreen:[/quote]

I'm not going to argue with you over whether the USA owes their freedom to France yadda yadda yadda. I also won't engage in how France and Germany have tried for over 40 years to turn Europe into a super state controlled by them. I look forward to watching the 'new' europe develop, one which will rightly put France and Germany back in its place.

However I am disgusted by your comments about the UK. Just because they don't tow the line that France and Germany want from Europe in no way makes them a lapdog to anybody. I was never a Blair fan, opposed his leadership, voted against him when he changed the constitution of the British Labour Party, but became a fan of his after meeting him a few times and hearing him speak - not edited highlites but to small groups in the flesh, unscripted and from the heart. (BTW i hold duel nationality and have lived most of my life between Israel and the UK).

Blair is a breed of politician we thought long dead. He holds by his conviction. His whole programme, from Education and the Welfare State to the economy and foriegn policy, is entered into because he believe that what he is doing is right. He's not chasing the votes. He has not been conned by Bush into joining him, he's done it because he believes its the right thing to do.

The world would be abetter place with more politicians like Blair.

Hm, maybe you're right about Blair, but I wasn't attacking him personally. In fact I remember him presenting plans to fight terrorism and the reasons for it's existence and me, myself and I praising him for that. But I still don't have a clue to what made Blair make the decision to follow Bush into Iraq. I really don't.

The thing about France was actually humorously meant Dave...but may I point out to you the fact that on numerous occasions European posters like me get beaten dead in a discussion with the argument that we should be grateful to the US for helping us in WWI and WWII? How do you think that feels? Should I just keep my mouth shut in the future because of this? I hope you understand my irritation about this.

Germany and France will have to shape the New Europe as you call it, the UK is going it's own course. They have the economic and political force and influence to do so, although I don't think they should be the decisive factor in the EU politics. Hopefully the breakthrough they managed to get with Iran is a sign for the future.

I do stand by my other statement: It's all to easy to just blame Arafat: I remeber him and Rabin coming close to a peace treaty until Rabin got shot. So it's not fair to bluntly say Arafat was the cause and that he supported the terrorists. He may very well have been in a terrible predicament: trying to both satisfy Isreal & the international community, and his own people (amongst whom a lot of radicals). I think he was pretty much tied down like that. He was a big time thief though. But I don't want to put the blame on Israel either...I admit that of late it has been a lack of willing from the side of the PA to get the peace process back on track. And Sharon has shown his good intentions lately by pulling back the colonizers from Gaza and the West Bank.

Yao, understand something about me, for me to blame Arafat is going back on almost 18 years of blinding support for the man and his cause. This is the dichotamy of the Left today in Israel.

Prior to Rabin and Oslo it was easy to condemn successive Israeli governments for the occupation of the territories. For nearly all of the 80's and early part of the 90's no Israeli leader would consider sitting down with Arafat. In fact it was a criminal offense to meet with members of the PLO.

Rabin showed courage, he said to Israel, look everyone deserves to be heard and to be given a chance, including Arafat. After Rabins murder we have had four different Prime Minsiters from both left wing and right wing parties. Each one tried to progress the programme with Arafat, each one had a door slammed in his face.

I don't expect the Palestinians to take what ever 'Israel offers', it has to be a fair offer taking into account some of the genuine demands and concerns of the Palestinian people. Why i blame Arafat is instead of coming back with counter proposals (which lets face is how negotiations work) he came back with a call to arms.

With respect to you, your reading of him is all wrong.

As for Europeans getting bashed . . . please, I'm Israeli, you should see some of the comments aimed at me on some sites i frequent! :roll:

Once Europe is fully intergrated then we'll see how much sway France and Germany will actually have. Remember that it wasn't just the UK who supported the USA in the war, unless i'm mistaken a sizeable amount of 'new and old' Europe also supported them!

Dave,

I must admit that my speciality is Africa, not the Middle East. So maybe I don't know enough to really have a balanced opinion on the situation there, who knows. On the other hand it could also be that because I'm not in the middle of it, I can look at the situation a bit cooler than you can. I'm not the one threatening to get bombed everday, all I receive are images and information via the media.

I must agree that Arafat hadn't shown any real attemps from his side to make an effort to get the PP back on track, I really cannot remember any significant news on a move from his side. And I'm pretty sure the news sources over here don't just back the Israeli's, so I don't think that's due to biased media.

I know that that a sizeable amount of 'old'and 'new' Europe backed the USA, and Europe is by far not as united as they would have you believe (only economically). But given the fact that Germany and France have the most political influence, I expect them to tow the boat in the future, for the moest part at least. In this, I actually put my hopes on Germany more than France: France is still a little bit too arrogant and easily makes decisions that offend many people, just for the sake of offending them (like the nuclear tests in Mururoa). Germany is the better negociator, and has shown to be able to take a leading role in European politics without scoffing other countries on a full-time basis.

To the France-bashers/haters:

I like France, I've been there, have spoken with the people and admire it especially for continuing to be on the frontline when it comes to Africa. They've not alway made the right decisions, but they went in. Also in Ivory Coast it's the French troops taking the beatings from Gbagbo's army. Well...in return they've destroyed their airforce...so they've beat them back well enough.

France may still have some colonial features in it's politics, certainly given the CFA-franc zone in Africa, which is connected to the French franc. Through the monetary ties France also had political power in those francophone countries, but on the other hand it has softened the blow from the economical crises in the 70's and 80's. And that way it has also been able to influence democratic reforms in many African states.

It's all too big to go into now, but for other readers bashing France this may be a little information as well, it's not just meant for you Dave. Although I can't remeber you bashing France, so let's just keep it for other readers now. :wink:

this topic is going madness...but i like it....

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

The solution to the Middle East is for the U.S to stop suppporting Israel and favouring them over the arabs. Why is that the U.S prefers to be an ally with one nation and alienate 20 + other nations?

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

[quote=runningman]

1. Where do you stand on the war on Iraq? [/quote]

I was against the invasion on Iraq. I believe Saddam was already that weak and wasn't a serious threat to anyone, which, I believe, the invasion has prooven. Although I believe that the removal of Saddam was definitely a good thing, I think the cost was simply too high and the entire mission was badly planned. But now, since Americans have invaded and occupied Iraq, I hope that things will start to get better a little faster, because it's about time and Iraq civilians have suffered enough. I support the coallition fight against insurgents, but on the other hand I believe coallition troops should have done more from the beginning to provide safety in Iraq territory.

[quote=runningman] 2. Where do you stand on the war on terror? [/quote]

I support the war on terrorism, but it is being fought the wrong way. Invading countries doesn't sort things out. Maybe it did in Afganistan, but not Iraq. But what I don't understand is how does North Korea fit in with the War on Terror. I have never heard of North Korean terrorists. Even if North Korea would have nuclear weapons, I don't think that they would ever use it, unless attacked first (too many migthy neighbours). IMHO Pakistan's nuclear weapons and the corrupt military and nuclear arsenal of the ex Soviet republics are a greater threat to world peace.

[quote=runningman] 3. What is your plan to prevent another 9-11? [/quote]

Better intelligence, secret services, special operations, cooperation between governments and I also agree with Yao, that solving the Israeli-Palestine conflict would help a lot.

[quote=runningman] 4. Do you think that the war will end after (if) Iran? [/quote]

I don't think the war will go to Iran, cause Iran is much stronger then Iraq. It isn't weakened by long years of sanctions, it was almost never a serious threat to international security (I believe it was Iraq, which invaded Iran, not vice-versa), so there would be almost no international support, which would make the entire thing a bit more difficult.

[quote=runningman] I am completly behind George Bush [/quote]

:Anal: :Anal: :Anal:

[quote=runningman] Plus they have a little thing called the CIA and The base in the mountain in colorado what's it called.. you get it.. there information i can guarantee you is better then ours.. [/quote]

The secret services which failed completely on 9/11 and even more before the war in Iraq. :roll: You sure are one blind believer. Personally I think the Israeli secret service is much better than the CIA. I bet they're even spying on Americans. :mrgreen:

But otherwise, for the Middle East solution, like one of the professors at my faculty said:

"There isn't a problem in this world, that a meteor large enough couldn't solve." :lol: :WinkNSmi: 8)

The Mossad and it's branches are considered to be among, or even the best when it comes to intelligence...but they have to ensure the survival of a small country in a mostly hostile environment.

1. Where do you stand on the war on Iraq? Against the War and i have million reasons
2. Where do you stand on the war on terror? What do u mean by war on terror !! u watch allot of TV rite !! killing ppl was never a solution IMO
3. What is your plan to prevent another 9-11? To have a fair deal for the ME peace btw P&I .. FAIR DEAL, and for Yanks to Fok off KSA, Afghanistan, Iraq and let them rule their countries
4. Do you think that the war will end after (if) Iran? Iran, hahaha u think the US will take the risk of getting into war in Iran after what happened in Iraq.. NO WAY and if Mr. Bush is up his bum that much he will learn the lessen the hard way in Iran ... and let me ask you a questions why Iran is not allowed to have WMD ? but the USA, UK and every other big punani got it ...it's coz they are Muslim and they don't have someone like Mesharaf in the power (Pakistan) to kiss Mr. Bush bum.

Nuke that shit hole ...

^^^^ Let's nuke the entire planet and move to Mars. :lol:

Earth is a shit hole anyway and I'm getting sick of it...

I don't agree with states forbidding other sovereign states to develop Nukes (or at the least enriching uranium), but on the other hand...nobody wants their enemy to develop a stronger weapon than they have.

So politically/military it is understandable, morally it's totally hypocritical.

I love this fucked up planet. Mankind being here alive is a contradiction in itself...let's waste this place!

(that wasn't me talking, honestly!)

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

[quote=mojorisin007]The solution to the Middle East is for the U.S to stop suppporting Israel and favouring them over the arabs. Why is that the U.S prefers to be an ally with one nation and alienate 20 + other nations?[/quote]

Interesting point, dates back to the cold war - USSR supported Arab States eventually USA supported Israel.