Check it out. Looks like WMD's to me.

If you use this link

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/phantom_fury/flash.htm[/url]

to visit the USA Today website you will be treated to a flash presentation of several pictures taken during the siege of Fallujah. Picture number two in this presentation shows 40 vials in boxes labeled "Sarin." That's sarin gas, my friends. One drop of this stuff on your skin can kill you. The boxes have Cyrillic and German characters on them, indicating they may have come from our good friends the Russians or the Germans. The caption under the photo reads "Marines discovered 40 vials of suspected Sarin gas while searching a house in Fallujah, Iraq. It was secreted in a briefcase hidden in a truck in the courtyard of the house."

From the site:

[url]http://boortz.com[/url]

Does it count as a WMD without a warhead? :NotMe:

those pictures are very cool. very graphic and super high quality. makes you really get at least a general idea of whats going no over there. thanks for sharing the link.

i'm not sure sarin gas is WMD by itself. saddam was already using these. i think the WMD is more the vehicle used to deliver the gas/explosive/whatever.

[quote=mixu]Does it count as a WMD without a warhead? :NotMe:[/quote]

only if you are an american democrat or french. :?

As i understand it there are two main components to WMD's - the agent (chemical or nuclear) and the weapon.

We know, from experience, that Iraq had weapons that he could fire into neighbouring states, to adapt a scud for example to carry sarin i dont believe is that difficult.

However sarin can be released into the environment in many ways, just think back to the Tokyo subway incident in 1995 (or thereabouts). In the this case the weapon itself was a human carrier.

So with that in mind i guess WMD's have been found, although i would be intrested in knowing how much damage 40 viales can actually do? Anyone know?

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

one vial of sarin gas can do a lot of damage. i.e. stand on a balcony in a crowded subway, crack the top off and spray the liquid around onto people, many deaths. the army had us view videotapes on how to treat it. guess how you treat someone in a combat situation? you do them a favor and kill them. i never wanna think about that shit again.

I liked the photos too Garrick. The photographer was using an exceptional lense. I just don't understand how the photographers don't get shot by someone by accident.

WMD's. Hey Mixu, I have always understood WMD's to be the component which would kill or damage a large mass of people with little difficulty. Also, see my point 1 below.

The UN always had knowledge of Saddams weapons, because he gave details of them after the Persian Gulf War. The problem was after 9/11 Saddam would not account for what he did with the stuff. He just said he didn't have it anymore, without showing a proof trail as to how he got rid of them. That was the problem which propelled Bush to go in and take Saddam out. Bush felt the need to get the WMD's out of Iraq before Bin Laden got them into his own hands.

The media and those against the actions of the US and allies, allowed Saddam to use the media to propel this misconception that he didnt have WMD's. But everyone who knows their history on Saddam remembers his surrender and his part of the agreement at that time was to list what WMD's he had and destroy them. At that time, he listed it then shortly after used them on his own people, killing some 300,000 people, maybe Kurds. Those were people who were rising up on their own to fight against Saddam and the Republican Guard. They didnt know the US would pull out once the Iraqis were out to Kuwait. They got screwed, and that in turn made it very hard for the Iraqis to believe the US really would stay till the end. Earlier in this war, they were still afraid of the US leaving and them being killed.

OK. Two points to mention.

1. Shells were found some time ago with Sarin and another chemical in them. If I remember correctly, maybe 8-15 shells all together. Not alot, but enough to kill 500,000 people if dispersed the right way. There was little attention giving to it by the left winged media, though the news on this was (and probably still is) available.

2. There is a chance USA Today, made a claim to quickly. I heard it said today, that it is possible that the vials where not actually Sarin, but test kits to check substances for the poison.

I don't know for sure.

Interesting side note though. If these vials where not the chemical, but test vials, doesnt that make us come to wonder how many other times the media makes a quick claim without the facts. Kind of a 'Dan Rather' mistake again, and probably many other times too.

Dont always just believe what you read (anywhere), or what you hear, or even what you see. There maybe another side to the story. The first story many times isn't portrayed accurately, or for the proper reason.

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

Perhaps they were planted there ? :NotMe:

maybe somo trick with the photoshop..

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

i do not call the thousands upon thousands dead and displaced from this war a reasonable result for having expunged what looks like a few cases of sarin

it STILL seems to me insufficient evidence to support a utilitarian argument for this war

not only that, consider that sarin is a synthesized material. the values that induced and propogated its existence have not been discussed, reasoned, or changed, therefore, it seems only likely that man may again still create more sarin and more and more and more....think of all the wars that would need to be fought to keep the sarin proliferation in check...and think of all the dead and suffering that would be casualties of such activity

it seems our ignorance and arrogance are inhibiting a genuine rectification of such a problem....the only way to keep sarin from being produced is to change the values that created it, not by temporarily removing it from the hands of another by force...it is obviously illogical, inefficient, and at the same time causing death and destruction far outweighing its proposed benefits

another argument would show that this war is based on even more fallacious reasoning

if iraq has WMD, why didnt GW order the attack of other countries which he certainly had evidence of nuclear weaponry for?? such as north korea

seems fallacious to me...also, what about iran?? what about russia??

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

Assuming this to be sarin, what exactly does this mean? Sarin has a shelf life between several weeks and several months. Either this was pre-Saddam sarin, and it has lost its effectiveness (not that that would excuse Iraq having it, of course), or it has been brought in since his capture and may or may not still be good.

I think it is interesting that it doesn't have any arabic lettering on it, like you might expect if it were Iraqi-made.

Just curious if anyone had heard anyone credibly speak to the source...

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

[quote=Trillian]Perhaps they were planted there ? :NotMe:[/quote]

Or perhaps [b]NOT[/b]...we don't need anymore conspiracy theorists...now that potential evidence is found that may make the case for going to war, people want to pull that conspiracy bunny out of the hat...it's old and ineffective... what has to be found in order for you to believe that WMD's were there? Is there anything that will convince you? Or does a bomb filled with mustard gas or sarin need to drop on U.S. troops before you'll believe it?

[quote=thesightless] only if you are an american democrat or french. :?[/quote]

Well I'm glad we've resorted to broad generalizations and over simplification.

[url]http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/basics/facts.asp[/url]

Some facts.

[url]http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7050/[/url]

And some more facts.

[url]http://www.cfrterrorism.org/weapons/sarin.html[/url]

And another one.

Still, a SUITCASE of vials SUSPECTED to be sarin gas does not prove anything. Come on people, it hasn't even been confirmed that this was sarin and it certainly doesn't look like it is safe to carry such a deadly substance in glass vials in a suitcase... :roll:

^^ they don't even have plumbing there.. so why would they hold it something else.. these countries are 120 years behind us.. they only have weapons because russia and USA sold it to them.. they have found WMD's.. here is the proof.. and now its time to check out IRAN..

[quote=thesightless][quote=mixu]Does it count as a WMD without a warhead? :NotMe:[/quote]

only if you are an american democrat or french. :?[/quote]

woah, pull your head out of your ass pal.

[quote=runningman]^^ they don't even have plumbing there.. so why would they hold it something else.. these countries are 120 years behind us.. they only have weapons because russia and USA sold it to them.. they have found WMD's.. here is the proof.. and now its time to check out IRAN..[/quote]

Yeah real proof :roll:

According to one of the links provided by Yao:

[quote]But the unclassified October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate stated that Iraq ?has begun renewed production of ? sarin? and other chemical weapons, and estimated that Saddam Hussein had between 100 and 500 metric tons of chemical agents. [/quote]

note the word [b]TONS[/b] in the excerpt. Now if they found lets say a few tons of the shit at that time I'll say we were justified. So far you we have found a suitcase of something believed to be Sarin and your ready to invade countries? Umm couldn't this amount be made in someone's basement given the precursor chemicals?

Also I pulled this from a comment on /. Interesting to say the least:

[quote]Uhm, c'mon, the answer is blazingly obvious -- what country would have printed things in German and Russian, and produced gobs of chemical weapons? Why, East Germany. That tells you how old the stuff is -- probably a wee bit past its due date. And sure enough, it is. (See below.) As for the translation, the German says "Handhabung: Siehe Anleitung", which means "Usage: See Directions". The second box is illegible ("Charge-Nr. 061081", where "Charge-Nr." means "batch number"; the number seems to be a German date, i.e. 6 October 1981). The third box says "Verwendungsf?hig bis: Okt. 1XXX", which means "Usable until October 1XXX". One can presume it has already expired, in other words, by at least five years. [/quote]

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

[b]Neoee[/b], where did you find that expiry date quote? I was actually looking for something like that too, when I checked out the links for some useful information.

Thanks for it anyway...proves there's a lot of publicity over a dead bird here. Even the quantity in vials is nowhere near the figures intelligence said Saddam would've posessed. It may really have been in his posession, but man...And I unfortunately couldn't find anything on the effectivity in practice from Sarin, because that is way less than theories tell us. Even VX is only a few percents effective when sprayed out in the air...although theoretically a few litres could kill millions of people. And VX is about 10 times or more lethal than Sarin.

Sorry guys, but one picture doesn't say it all to me. It just raises more questions, having all the lies and deceit of the past years in my mind.

Yao- the comment was taken from a discussion on [url]www.slashdot.org[/url] and as much as I'd like to believe the statement regarding the expiry date to be fact, to be fair, I have to point out that it is only speculation and as the user comments "the number [i]seems[/i] to be a German date, i.e. 6 October 1981".

Although this information appears to be reasonable sound I don't want to do as some cough runningman cough and make assumptions. :)

Re: Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Fallujah

[quote=robprunzit] The boxes have Cyrillic and German characters on them, indicating they may have come from our good friends the Russians or the Germans.
[/quote]

It's funny too, how robprunitz clearly overlooks the "American" characters: "SOMAN, SARIN, V-GASES; FOR WORKING INSTRUCTIONS REFER TO INSTRUCTIONS-LEAFLET"

Hmmm, now what language is that? :WinkNSmi:

Regarding the mentioned expiry date the only visible thing is October 1..., but I would probably agree that this is dthe year, because IMO there's not enough space on there to write the day and the year...

I cannot see the film/pics until I've reinstallen Winblows XP...so I can't confirm all that is said here, dammit. Anyone able and willing to place an ordinary .jpeg link or image here for me?

The site's done in Flash so I can't get a link... but [url=http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=ImagesAdvancedSearchState|2|0|30||0|0|0||1|||11%2f22%2f2004|10%2f22%2f2004|0|0|0|0|0|0|0||0|marco+di+lauro|7|-1||0||386|0|0|0&p=0]this[/url] is Getty's site.

[quote] Image # 51729489

U.S Marines Test Suspected Sarin Gas Viles In Falluja 11 Nov 2004 By: Marco Di Lauro [/quote]

thnx bro...

[quote=neoee][quote=runningman]^^ they don't even have plumbing there.. so why would they hold it something else.. these countries are 120 years behind us.. they only have weapons because russia and USA sold it to them.. they have found WMD's.. here is the proof.. and now its time to check out IRAN..[/quote]

Yeah real proof :roll:

According to one of the links provided by Yao:

[quote]But the unclassified October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate stated that Iraq ?has begun renewed production of ? sarin? and other chemical weapons, and estimated that Saddam Hussein had between 100 and 500 metric tons of chemical agents. [/quote]

note the word [b]TONS[/b] in the excerpt. Now if they found lets say a few tons of the shit at that time I'll say we were justified. So far you we have found a suitcase of something believed to be Sarin and your ready to invade countries? Umm couldn't this amount be made in someone's basement given the precursor chemicals?

Also I pulled this from a comment on /. Interesting to say the least:

[quote]Uhm, c'mon, the answer is blazingly obvious -- what country would have printed things in German and Russian, and produced gobs of chemical weapons? Why, East Germany. That tells you how old the stuff is -- probably a wee bit past its due date. And sure enough, it is. (See below.) As for the translation, the German says "Handhabung: Siehe Anleitung", which means "Usage: See Directions". The second box is illegible ("Charge-Nr. 061081", where "Charge-Nr." means "batch number"; the number seems to be a German date, i.e. 6 October 1981). The third box says "Verwendungsf?hig bis: Okt. 1XXX", which means "Usable until October 1XXX". One can presume it has already expired, in other words, by at least five years. [/quote][/quote]

The only difference between a rut and a grave are the dimensions..because they found a small amount is proof no matter which way you guys want to spin it.. i don't have sarin at my house.. i don't even know how to begin to get sarin..

If I'd use the same reasoning as you do Runningman, I'd say:

"This amount of Sarin isn't even enough to get rid of the mice in my house."

The word [b]tons[/b] is important, because the vast amount of WMD's Saddam was supposedly making were the primary reason to go into Iraq. Bush would've never even conviced a monkey to help him if he'd come up with the figure of 40 vials of Sarin as a reason to go to war.

[quote=runningman] The only difference between a rut and a grave are the dimensions..because they found a small amount is proof no matter which way you guys want to spin it.. i don't have sarin at my house.. i don't even know how to begin to get sarin..[/quote]

It is NOT yet confirmed to be Sarin gas, it says SUSPECTED, or can't you read properly? And have you considered the argument, that it is quite possible that sarin in these vials might not be usable anymore? :?

all i'm saying is they have it.. and he gased his own people earlier so there must be more right?? i am not saying that is a lot but maybe they are moving it around now because they had to leave Fallujah. If they move it around more that will increase the USA's chance of catching them.. and i can read thank you.. How do you stop drug dealers?? start at the bottom and work your way up.. that is what the USA is doing right now but at least they are finding stuff. Either way these were people living here just days earlier chopping peoples heads off (Foresure) and possibly making sarin gas to kill more people.. I didn't exepct you two to take there side..

[quote=runningman]all i'm saying is they have it..[/quote]

Yes, I understand what you are trying to say, but still can you give me a source that can confirm that there was really sarin in those vials? And don't you think that if the evil terrorists had weapons of mass destruction, that they would be already using it by now?

[quote=runningman] and he gased his own people earlier so there must be more right?? [/quote]

I must point out that I strongly disapprove Saddam using WMDs on Kurds, but you can go and ask how many Iraqis consider Kurds "their own people". Kurds have had problems with survival as long as they exist. And I believe American ally and friend Turkey has killed just as many Kurds as Saddam did. Which is a sad thing, but you don't hear a lot of diplomats saying: Look at Turkey, killing its own people," which is definitely wrong.

[quote=runningman]i am not saying that is a lot but maybe they are moving it around now because they had to leave Fallujah. If they move it around more that will increase the USA's chance of catching them.. [/quote]

Yes , big trucks of WMDs are rolling around Iraq every day. Unnoticed... :CrackUp: Well, we'll see, won't we?

[quote=runningman] and i can read thank you.. [/quote]

Hmmmm... Yes. But do you understand what you read? :wink:

[quote=runningman] How do you stop drug dealers?? start at the bottom and work your way up.. that is what the USA is doing right now but at least they are finding stuff. [/quote]

I don't see your connection with the way drug dealers are being stopped. I think it's just the other way round. The "top dealer", which I would say is IMO definitely Saddam, and he's been in captivity for quite a long time now.

[quote=runningman] Either way these were people living here just days earlier chopping peoples heads off (Foresure) [/quote]

Although there is still a small matter of civilists, involved in the battle of Fallujah, this might be the point, on which I agree with you. :D I support the American attempts to destroy the insurgents, but on the other hand this is something that should be dealt with immediately after "the major military operations" were over, and in fact coallition troops should have never allowed terrorists to enter Iraq (most of them don't come from Iraq, but they came from the neighbouring countries) in the first place.

[quote=runningman] and possibly making sarin gas to kill more people.. [/quote]

This is bollocks. Does the word L - A - B - O - R - A - T - O - R - Y mean anything to you? Or can anyone make sarin gas; without the lab, withouth the chemicals. :roll:

[quote=runningman] I didn't exepct you two to take there side..[/quote]

Whose side am I taking? Is your point that if the war is fought for a "good" cause, all mistakes should be forgiven? Like Yao, I support the war on terrorism (NOT YOUR HOLY CRUSADE AGAINST THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST). But I do not believe that fighting badly planned conventional wars is the right way. That's all. 8)

I wasn't talking about them moving around in trucks like that stupid theory before.. but they needed to re locate, no?? They aren't there now but they were there once.. Yes smart ass.. i hope you made it that far with me.. Also how was this a badly planned war? took over an entire country in a year and only lost 1100 soldiers. That my friend is a succes in war terms. We will see won't we when the USA goes into Iran and shit starts to go down in North Korea.

Too little, to late. Get the troops out of there.(all of the countries) Let the Iraqis take care of themsleves.

[quote=runningman]I wasn't talking about them moving around in trucks like that stupid theory before.. but they needed to re locate, no?? They aren't there now but they were there once..[/quote]

I wasn't serious, I was merely being sarcastic. But chill down a little, if you would have done some research, you would have found out, that after a while most sources admitted that the vials do not contain Sarin, but chemicel agents to determine the concentration of Sarin, Soman and V-Gases.

I found an interesting opinion on: [url]http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008649.php[/url]

[quote]With respect to the possible dicsovery of Sarin in Fallujah, I believe those items may be part of a kit to test for the presence of Sarin (or other nerve agents). Labeled "Soman, Sarin, V-gases," and reference to an instruction leaflet are important clues. Sarin, as well as Soman and VX (as well as Tabun) are all nerve agents, act on the body in a similar fashion, and would be detected using the same type of device/method.

While all are extremely dangerous at low levels, the vials pictured appear to be packaged for ease of transport and limited use, as a testing agent might be. True, a vial of that size, full of nerve agent, could kill a human. Many humans. Dispersal of such a small amount would be the tricky part.

For lack of a better analogy, one could kill a fly with a bazooka. Getting the two together would be near impossible. Successful use of nerve agents on the battlefield require litres upon litres of agent, either dispersed over a wide area, or placed where the enemy will come into contact with it. In a confined space, the amount would be far, far less, something appropriate for a "targeted killing" rather than military use in theater.

Of course, this begs the question what the terrorists are doing with test kits in the first place. I wouldn't consider myself an "expert" on WMD, however I have had highly advanced training in WMD offered by the military, and have been a civilian paramedic for 10 years. [/quote]

[quote=runningman] Also how was this a badly planned war? took over an entire country in a year and only lost 1100 soldiers. That my friend is a succes in war terms. We will see won't we when the USA goes into Iran and shit starts to go down in North Korea.[/quote]

How was this a badly planned war? I will just quote a part of my post from another topic in this forum:

[quote]

• too little diplomatic support was gathered (IMHO the US would have gotten a lot more diplomatic support if they hadn't rushed into with such a hurry, which would make the war and rebuilding of Iraq a lot easier and most importantly less expensive for the US),
• too few forces were allocated (one of the first things should be to secure (at least the most "critical") Iraq borders and prevent all the terrorists from neighbouring countries coming to Iraq)
• reconstruction is progressing too slowly,
• the US and the new Iraq army are a bit late "dealing" with insurgents, and are still not able to provide normal safety and security conditions. [/quote]

Wars are not only about the number of military victims. :roll: Especially, the war in Iraq. The conditions in which civilians live are (sadly) today still worse than they were before the war, Iraq is a hotbed of terrorism and terror and one of the ironic thigs is that most of the victims were inflicted after the major military operations were supposed to be over, which I believe is not usually the case. And all in all Bush completely underestimated Iraq and promised a swift war, which unfortunately still isn't over. I still don't understand why Iraq had to be invaded so soon and why was it such an eminent threat to international security...

[quote=dtgunslinger]Too little, to late. Get the troops out of there.(all of the countries) Let the Iraqis take care of themsleves.[/quote]

However, I do believe that moving troops out of Iraq before conditions change to normal would be a grave mistake, which would even worsen the conditions in the Middle East.

BOLLOX

^^^^ Are we a little bit anxious to get to 50 posts? :twisted:

Pretty sure he is.

If you yell bollocks, then tell us why you think so [b]Dzone[/b]. Or don't you have an opinion?

[quote=Yao]Pretty sure he is.

If you yell bollocks, then tell us why you think so [b]Dzone[/b]. Or don't you have an opinion?[/quote]

Man, WMD my ass, the UN went there sniffing the bloody country for about a year they found Fuck all, the US went after and been looking for another Year and they Found Fuck all, now u bring me photos from bloody Boots and you telling me this WMD ... Bollox If you believe the Iraq had WMD is it's ur opinion and u got the rite to hold into it, but for any one who can use his 1% of his brain the WMD was never found there coz they never existed ...all he had was some chemical W that 60% of the world have it already FYI.

Lets say you're right Dzone and that there were no WMD's. That only leaves two questions:-

1. What did he do with all the WMD's he acknowledged having for a large part of the 90's?

2. Why did he hamper the UN inspectors for so long?If he didn't have any, why not just help the inspectors?

^^^^ Here is my theory:

1. He moved them to Jordan and Syria... :wink: j/k, although it might be true. Honestly, I think we will never know what exactly happened to Iraq WMDs.

2. I think hampering the UN inspectors was more of a tactical move for Saddam. IMO, he wanted the world (esp. Iran and the US, Iraq's greatest enemies during saddam's reign) to think he has WMDs and probably he thought this might prevent the invasion on Iraq. But it seems like it didn't pay off. Probably he was trying to achieve some sort of Status Quo to remain in power. For example, I read that Soviets were using models of nuclear missiles (the actual missiles were developped much later) during their military parades, just to scare the Americans....

[quote=Dzone] Man, WMD my ass, the UN went there sniffing the bloody country for about a year they found Fuck all, the US went after and been looking for another Year and they Found Fuck all, now u bring me photos from bloody Boots and you telling me this WMD ... Bollox If you believe the Iraq had WMD is it's ur opinion and u got the rite to hold into it, but for any one who can use his 1% of his brain the WMD was never found there coz they never existed ...all he had was some chemical W that 60% of the world have it already FYI.[/quote]

Now, that's a little bit better. If you had read more carefully, you would have noticed, that a lot of people here DO NOT believe Saddam had WMD's at the time of American invasion (me and Yao are amongst them). However, There is doubtless proof (Americans still have the receipts :wink: ) that Saddam definitely had a lot of WMDs (chemical and biological weapons) in the last two decades of the previous century, so like davetlv mentioned, it is a questions where have all those weapons gone (he probably didn't use them all up on Kurds now, did he?).