[url]http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041116/D86D08A01.html[/url]

well, as cool guy, ftc, points below, i guess i don't read and process information very well. still it is an interesting article, but ignore my paragraph of stupid banter below. :oops:

ok, give me a break. if people make a big deal over this, saying the american soldier was wrong in shooting this guy, i'm not sure i agree. i mean i understand not harming anyone that that has surrendered and is defenseless, but in the case where there have been sabotages with iraqis [b]pretending[/b] to be dead, th ats a whole other situation. anybody agree with me? you protect yourself and your allies first... if that means doing what that soldier did, so be it. if i had someone firing rpgs at me and then that guy pretends to be dead, you are god damn right i am going to have an itchy trigger finger. no ifs, ands or buts.

Re: U.S. to Probe Shooting of Wounded Iraqi

you left out a very important piece of information. the mentioned "wounded iraqi" who was shot dead for still breathing was a [b]prisoner[/b]. are you seeking for consolidation? hoping someone will agree with your so you don't feel alone with your sick thoughts? i bet you also think it was correct to torture and sexually abuse iraqi war prisoners at Abu Gharib aswell...

:KillYou:

i hope those responsible will be prosecuted to the fullest and if found guilty, will be appropriately punished.

as for sickos like you, i suggest investigating humanitarian rights. start with "the geneva convention" and "amnesty international".

prisoner is a different situation... i guess i neglected to process that. that'd mean he was disarmed, so i guess i stand corrected.

and you, ftc can bite my ass shithead.

:Naughty:

cheers

i guess i should take back my last comment. it's easy to jump the gun. if it was nothing but an honest mistake, i appologize aswell.

:KizzMuhA:

anyone want to sodomize some frogs?? :roll:

American troops do not have the reputation to be very selective in arresting people. And even if he'd just fired an rpg, it's still murder

you also have to remember that these guys can't trust anyone.. people are coming out everywhere with car bombs and bombs attached to themselves.. i don't support what happened but you have to put yourself in their shoes.. they arwe under an extreme amount of stress and that can take a toll on your decision making..

[quote]"He's (fucking) faking he's dead!"

"Yeah, he's breathing," another Marine is heard saying.

"He's faking he's (fuckin') dead!" the first Marine says.

The video then showed a Marine raising his rifle toward a prisoner lying on the floor of the mosque. The video shown by NBC and provided to the network pool was blacked out at that point and did not show the bullet hitting the man. But a rifle shot could be heard.

"He's dead now," a Marine is heard saying.[/quote]

Definately, if he shot him because he was playing dead, out of pure smite then the soldiers deserve whatever punishment they get (if they had proof the prisoner had killed a U.S. soldier, then so be it). Back in WW2 this would have been acceptable, however not as easy for some American troops. Today, with international law... the marines should have known better. Regardless, FTC can also bite my ass. This is war, and war requires extreme measures. You consistantly jump the gun. cheers :Gay:

For the most part I agree with FTC, except for the fact that maybe any of us would act the same in a situation like, wether it is right or wrong. If you're in a war and see your friends get killed or wounded (seeing them lying on the ground crying for their mother with their entrails in their hands and stuff), and are on edge all the time because any moment someone can pop out a door or a car could come around the corner trying to kill you...it's a pretty human response to unload that tension. It just fucks you up.

I'm not saying I approve of what the soldiers did, but I understand it.

Re: U.S. to Probe Shooting of Wounded Iraqi

For me is a murder

you also have to take into account what the media is telling us. they could make it sound alot better/worse than it actually is. it really isn't fair to judge someone on their actions when 1) you weren't there, 2) you have not been in that situation before and 3) you hear it from the US media because they want you to think one thing when it could have been easily a completely different situation.

for example, a prisoner could mean two things: 1) a prisoner that they JUST took captive and they are still trying to control him while in the line of battle or 2) a confined prisoner outside of the war area under our control. both could call for vastly different reactions.

i just watched the footage this evening it's dissapointing. obviously the soldiers are under alot of stress trying to get the job done. although no matter how true this is, i think that after you watch what was filmed you will stop arguing. this cannot be called anything other than "murder of a prisoner" which is violation of human rights & the "treatment of prisoners". i don't see the point in carrying on this discussion the marine has been discharged and will be facing a trial (officially announced).

this is not something new. young buck hillbilly marines getting a kick out of abusing power and authority. as long as there is proof available, necessary measures will be taken.

balanc3, i don't consistently jump the gun. i try my best to defend the truth. if anyone has a personal problem with this tough luck. when i realize tension i try to ease the tone but unfortunately some people don't appreciate the courtesy.

[quote=ftc]i just watched the footage this evening it's dissapointing. obviously the soldiers are under alot of stress trying to get the job done. although no matter how true this is, i think that after you watch what was filmed you will stop arguing. this cannot be called anything other than "murder of a prisoner" which is violation of human rights & the "treatment of prisoners". i don't see the point in carrying on this discussion the marine has been discharged and will be facing a trial (officially announced).

this is not something new. young buck hillbilly marines getting a kick out of abusing power and authority. as long as there is proof available, necessary measures will be taken.

balanc3, i don't consistently jump the gun. i try my best to defend the truth. if anyone has a personal problem with this tough luck. when i realize tension i try to ease the tone but unfortunately some people don't appreciate the courtesy.[/quote]

FTC, you really draw some big conclusions from a 40 second video. None of us know what led up to the shooting.

I'm not saying we should just trust the marines to do their jobs. I'm just saying, don't condemn this guy based on that video. I don't know what happened. These guys don't look like prisoners to me. They look like injured insurgents. They maybe became prisoners after this video, but from a report on CNN last night, it sounds like they were accidentally left there for a day. They were all so hurt they just stayed there. So when these other marines went in, they may not have known about the previous day's encounter.

Pretty much any video I see of war looks like it's wrong to me. It's people killing people, so it's never going to look flattering for the guy doing the killing. I'll hold off judgement, positive or negative, until I get more facts. And if he actually just murdered a guy for no reason, I'm sure he'll pay for it now that there's footage of it.

well if it WAS an act of murder and it does violate the "treatment of prisoners", its not like iraq hasn't done this as well in a much more gruesome manner, might i add. having said that, it still does not make it right to do something just because the other side does it.

in the vid i see a wounded old man (he is said to be wounded the day before when the mosque was attacked who was then treated by the marines which leads me to conclude that he would be unarmed) being shot at point-blank range with no evidence of posing any possible threat. i'm sorry, i don't know what else to call this.

yes, perhaps there are more details behind this incident but if it wasn't filmed i doubt anyone would hear about it. atleast now justice has a chance to prevail should the marine be found guilty.

maybe he decided to put the injured man out of his misery.. maybe he was badly hurt and the marine just ended it the pain.. remember the democratic media is persuading.. but not always true.. when did it become cool to listen to the news instead of the leader of your country??

Even if that was the case, he should have known he'd get himself into trouble. If it is as FTC said however, the must face court martial, face his responsabilities and be convicted. Like I said before: sometimes gruesome acts can be understood, but never ever justified, no matter how contradictory this may sound.

Re: U.S. to Probe Shooting of Wounded Iraqi

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that this same Co. lost some of their men the day before because they came across a dead - or at least near death - fighter that had booby trapped his body. One of the soldiers went up to check the body and the IED went off taking out members of this same group that is in the video. This happened less than 24 hours before this, it's not a stretch to imagine that these troops had that memory fresh in their minds and they didn't want to lose any more in a similar situation, faking dead or not. That enemy could have pulled the pin and one grenade is all it would take to wipe out everyone on that floor, maybe even that building. That fighter could have been strapped to the gills with C4 and was just waiting for the right moment to set it off, we don't know and neither did that soldier - so he assessed the situation, took into account a very real threat and made the decision.

Like Yao said, it's tough to watch but I can understand why that soldier did what he did. I'm not saying he should win the medal of honor, but he shouldn't be punished either.

This proves to me the hypocrisy of 'Rules of engagement': it assumes that war can be regulated by rules. Forget it: in a real war the one that fights meanest and hardest will win, not the one obeing the rules. Every Western soldier is brought up by the rules, but outside UN, UN Security councel or NATO related countries there's no country abiding by these rules. And even within those organisations not every country does.

Compare it with a bar fight: you can do martial arts as much as you want, but if your opponent breaks a beer bottle and sticks it in your face, you lose. Period. I do martial arts, but I'd defenitely go for the bottle if that makes me win. Because fighting is only stylish and regulated in your dreams, not in reality. Out there it's ugly.

Maybe most of you havent heard some to the details of the situation in Iraq now. Since some of you dont broaden your perspective by finding info in places OTHER THAN the the NY Times, CNN, and the local media, you probably haven't heard what the insurgents are now doing, in hopes of killing Western troops.

Perfectly alive insurgents will lie on the road, pretending to be dead or hurt, then when the troops come by and attempt to give aid, (you probably never knew how many troops risk their lives to actually give aid to the enemy once the man is without his gun), then when a couple troops are close by, the insurgent either pulls out a gun and shoots them, or he simply blows up himself with a bomb which he triggered.

Now, insurgents take injured insurgents, plant a bomb on him, and since he will die anyway (and in Islam it is considered a good thing to die in a holy war) he blows himself up when the troops approach to check him or help him.

I would do the same thing the soldier did in the video. How can you trust a man who was just trying to kill you, and with the new game they are playing, why should they take the chance.

Sad, yes. War is hell! But since 14 out of 18 provinces in Iraq are now under complete peace and Iraqi control, hopefully with this new push this problem will intensify and then lessen itself faster with more insurgents dead.

check out [url]http://boortz.com[/url] for a great site to help you see a different perspective if you are interested.

Boortz is pretty annoying, just venting his opinion (a very republican/conservative one).

This is not an unbiased news source, and therefore discarded for me to be used as one. It's funny to read into the mind of someone backing that shitty war to the fullest though. Gives me more ammo against it. :twisted:

40 vails of Sarin gas? Ooh...they did have some. Now all they need is a few planes to fly over US or European soil and dump the shit on our heads. Theoretically this stuff could kill millions of people, in pratice it has already been proven that the efficay of it is only a few percents. Should look up where I found this, it's been a while...

This war has been going on for more than a year now, time enough to move the gas in from outside. Maybe it was to be used against the occupying forces. Who knows? Maybe it was already there and Saddam planned to use it on the Kurdian rebels in the North. He did gas them before, don't know if he used Sarin. It's being put down as a fact: Saddam had WMD's, they would be used against Western targets and therefore had to be removed form power.

I wish it were that simple...oversimplifying things can be really dangerous when it comes to informing people. It comes close to tunnelvision.

but you have to act now.. because waiting does nothing but have two planes fly into your bulding and war ship get bombed(we all saw what happened with Clinton).. just because you don't want to approach it doesn't mean it isn't out there.. Yes war is war.. and bad things happen in war.. they should just implememt a rule that you have to be naked to get help.. if not we will shoot you.. Making it to complicated will surely mean that nothing gets done.. you can't speak for the Iraqi people.. nobody can for about 8 years..when the wheels get moving and people can put saddam and the torture out of there heads.. they don't trust anyone and i don't blame them..

[quote=runningman](we all saw what happened with Clinton) [/quote]

please don't turn this into a president's fault discussion. we have enough of those going around and don't need anymore. it wasn't any one person's fault that created the 9/11 situation.

no the only point i was making that turning your back on the situation doesn't mean it will go away.. Out of sight out of mind theory.. the problem is that americans forget the quickest out of all the nations i read about..

i know :)

i just wanted to forewarn anyone before it happened... seeing how people like to open that topic more often than it should be.

Come on Garrick. No offense to you, but hear me out. Why is it a problem to lay blame where blame should lie. I happen to believe it would be different today if Clinton had not made the choices he did, and changes he made to our CIA and Mililtary. I have a relative who is in the army, and has been there for a while. He confirms what I had heard about the problems inside our armed forces after Clinton cut and dashed the military the way he did. Many simply left the service, or joined the guard, only to be proud to serve under Bush now

Bush only had 9 months in office when 9/11 happened. Will be a different story if it happens again next year. But even then, how do you stop something like that 100%. I'm just pointing out, Clinton balanced the budget with the cuts he made in our CIA and military. That helped and hurt us, and I think now, hurt us more.

The CIA man who just resigned a couple weeks ago had some pretty strong things to say against the 9/11 commission report, and how it did not lay any blame. I don't know his side or who he would blame by the way. I do remember it sounded like he was upset with the way things are in the CIA at this time. And before George Tennet (sp) stepped down, he said it would take 5 more years to get the CIA back up to speed. They needed time to rebuild what had been cut out.

If you like Clinton, fine. I like Bush, fine. Neither man is perfect. Both are pretty cool guys in their own way. Both have made mistakes. What I hate is the 'lack of responsibility' people live in today. That is our downfall. Out 21st century downfall. No personal responsibility.

And yes, you are right 'runningman', we are damned forgetful. Its just sad.

Re: U.S. to Probe Shooting of Wounded Iraqi

The simple fact remains that it is incredibly easy to talk the house of shit when you are not in the situation.

The guy is stressed, under fire, killing people. He probably hasn't slept, eaten, or bathed in who knows how long. And to top it off, his buddy gets killed in the same situtation the day before and he gets wounded in the face. He could have shot a second prisoner and didn't. Why not? no one knows.

Just because you don't agree with the war or with the USA it's not a reason to focus so intently on finding American wrong doing. How many CIVILIANS have had their heads cut off by these pieces of shit? And everyone is bitching because they THINK the guy MAY have been unarmed? Give me a break. Fuck him!!! That Marine did what he had to do, right or wrong, it's not for us to judge. We are not in that situation and probably not capable of understanding it anyway.

How about the CARE worker?? She was killed the same day. She is an Iraqi who had been helping the iraqis through CARE for 30 years. They killed her too.

These people (insurgents and terrorists) are pigs. They deserve death and for their bodies to be powdered and buried with pigs shit! Taking prisoners only means that you have one more person to feed! shoot them all!

Why in the HELL do we not hear about the Muslim world screaming about what the insurgents are doing?

The CARE worker, she was muslim, and one of them. She was there for a long time doing a 'good deed'. All they can scream about is a 'insurgent maniac killing machine towel heads', and not raise a finger in protest about this woman who was one of them.

Hypocrisy :!:

The 'good' never has a voice in the world of media journalism. I'm sure there are some middle eastern muslims who would agree with me. I know there are good people over there, as well as, on all parts of the globe. We dont hear about it because the press chooses what we get to hear. That is someone (or something) to be angry with.

The media just sux! Especially Al-Jezerra, and its brothers CNN and NY Times.

robprunzit, haha... i never said i liked or disliked either candidate or party if you read my messages... just seems like every topic here leads to talking about which president is at fault. i didn't think this article had anything to do with that, yet people still get on the subject.

Re: U.S. to Probe Shooting of Wounded Iraqi

I think we should let this go to trial and let the soldier's account of what happened be heard. At this point, I'm willing to give the soldier the benefit of the doubt considering the tricks that the Iraqi insurgents are trying. Trying to put myself in the soldier's position, I wouldn't take any chances in losing my life in such a hostile environment either. But I agree that if he was killing without proper intent then he should be accountable for murder.

Even if it was a judgment call, I agree with Ice Cube's thinking - "Better to be judged by 12 than buried by 6"

come on!!! the fact is that an EEUU soldier kill an injured and desarmed man. that?s a fact. the shit that you argument are conjectures, not facts.

so now your soldiers not only kills man,womans & childrens, now wounded people too. why you think that with violence you can make things better? dont you know a word called "tolerance"? with killer that you have for president im very concerned about the future...

Why was he injured idiot?? ^^^ probably because he was fighting with the insurgents.. why do we think this man that died was a good man and we feel bad for him.. he was the enemy.. this is war.. u think when islam takes over you country they won't chop off your head for saying something against there religion?? Be careful with your arguements because from my point of view u guys sound like the enemy.. MIchael Moore really touched a lott of people in USA and it is a shame because he doesn't care about the USA.. He has divided it with all his lies..

you say it man....probably he was fighting with the insurgents....probably.....that a fact? no man. that a conjecture.

and ok...maybe he was a rebel....he still was disarmed and injured.....and who are you to say who is a bad guy or a bad man? maybe he was only defending his ideas, maybe your army kill all of his family, maybe your soldier rape his wife in the Abu Sabir Prison.....and maybe ...just maybe he was traying to defend his country against the invaders ( that?s you), but well all that are just conjectures, isn?t? do i talk like the enemy? nop you talk like a killer for defending that shit. i am the enemy ? nop...a just a guy that hates the violence that you and the Irakies insurgents love. Only because you can tolerate the diffences. I think you must see inside you and look for the enemy, maybe you will find it.

well that was very deep.. and a load of shit.. look inside myself?? i'm not blowing myself up!! ..no you don't understand war.. Where u from.. if u say the USA i am convinced that u people have completely lost touch with reality.. How can you say this about people who were strapping bombs on themselves and killing your soldiers?? Put yourself in there shoes.. You might do the same if u were trained to kill your whole life..

marimba - you don't know the facts either, so you shouldn't assume anything either. like i said before, the media will hype you up with all kinds of BS. some of it true, some of it slightly exaggerated and some untrue... we should let justice determine what happens now.

im not assuming anything. there is a fact, and the fact is that video of an american soldier killing in cold blood an injured and disarmed person. that?s a fact.. and that soldier must be separated from the army and have a trial.

i saw the video...it was disgusting...

the marine was probably scared and hysterical to some degree

i dont know how else you could be in war

his superiors have probably completely desensitized him from perceiving those people as equals, but rather "raghead" pieces of garbage

you would have to think like that to make any sense at all of it

it is a common event in war....they do this to these kids and then tell them to play by some rule???

fuck that

that kid was so brainwashed...he just "forgot" the so called rules of engagement

what a load of shit that is - """the rules of engagement""" :roll:

what that kid did was evil...no doubt about it...but this entire war is evil...the entire thing is wrong...both sides are savages...and this is just one more example of it...i hold him accountable, but i also all parties to this tragedy accountable...

[quote=Garrick]marimba - you don't know the facts either, so you shouldn't assume anything either. like i said before, the media will hype you up with all kinds of BS. some of it true, some of it slightly exaggerated and some untrue... we should let justice determine what happens now.[/quote]

dont we all have a hand in justice??

dont exclude marimba from inquiry

smells like more a cover up to me....is that what you advocate?

[quote=Marimba]and ok...maybe he was a rebel....he still was disarmed and injured.....and who are you to say who is a bad guy or a bad man? maybe he was only defending his ideas, maybe your army kill all of his family, maybe your soldier rape his wife in the Abu Sabir Prison.....and maybe ...just maybe he was traying to defend his country against the invaders ( that?s you), but well all that are just conjectures, isn?t? [/quote]

Whatever anyone may have against Marimba here, this is quite true. I've tried explaining something alike to a few relatives of mine, but they won't understand.

For most Westerners, the Iraqi's fighting the US and EU troops are nothing more than terrorists and insurgents, but we must never ever forget that there is more views to life, right or wrong, beautiful or ugly etc. than our own. It's hard looking at someone from a different culture trying not to wear your 'cultural glasses', in fact it is impossible. But you can always try to imagine yourself not being yourself but the man/woman/child looking at you. Imagine the thoughts.

Your own side is always just one of many sides to a story. People tend to ignore this fact. Intolerance and the unwillingness to open up to others is the enemy within. But that's just a humble boyz opinion, isn't it?

SAY NO MORE!

PEACE!!