I've taken the position on this forum in the past that the United States should not torture people in its custody, partially because it's ineffective -- someone being tortured will tell you anything to get it to stop -- and partially because we just shouldn't, that it is beneath us as a nation.

I am, however, willing to make an exception for these guys:

[quote]SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico – Five men charged in the Sept. 11 attacks mock U.S. authorities and proclaim themselves "terrorists to the bone" in a war crimes court filing released Tuesday.[/quote]

[URL]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_guantanamo_sept11_trial[/URL]

One of my biggest problems with torture, apart from the fact that we lose the claim to any moral high ground when we do it, is that it allows the captor to take the place of the justice system, effectively punishing someone before they've been adjudicated as having actually done anything wrong. When someone like this comes out, though, and basically says, "Hey, we did it, we're happy we did it, and we'd do it again," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them -- especially when they're not citizens.

I suppose that makes me a hypocrite of sorts, but under the circumstances, I'll take it.

:evil:

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

fine, just kill them behind closed doors.. no media, no fan fare.. nothing to let anyone of their scum bag "supporters" know what has happened as they can not be viewed as matyrs to anyone but themselves.. and what will that get them? fuck all but a ticket to hell

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Honestly, for people like these five, I think throwing them into the general population at Leavenworth and just letting our nation's finest hardened criminals sodomize them for the rest of their lives would be fitting. Pretty sure that's a fate worse than death for hardcore Islamic extremists, seriously.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=toasty;720039]Honestly, for people like these five, I think throwing them into the general population at Leavenworth and just letting our nation's finest hardened criminals sodomize them for the rest of their lives would be fitting. Pretty sure that's a fate worse than death for hardcore Islamic extremists, seriously.[/quote]

And serve them pork wrapped in sausage wrapped in bacon every day.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I wouldn't condone torture simply because they were proud of the 9/11 attacks. Sure, these are bad guys, but I wouldn't allow my anger with them to persuade me to torture these guys. Quite honestly, I expect nothing less from these terrorists. Put them on trial and hand them executions or whatever punishment is decided upon.

I would only condone torture if there were an imminent attack or extreme emergency situation that endangers many lives. See the show 24 for examples.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I wasnt meaning torture in my post, just execute them

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I think enough people have suffered and died in the 9/11 attacks and as a result of them...I think all those involved in anyway should serve a prison sentence.

I also think that if you are talking about what is "bellow a nation like the US" you should think about all the people of other nations who will never see justice for the crimes committed by US army personnel and other US citizens. There are very prominent US citizens (e.g. Kissinger) who are wanted by the international war crimes tribunal but will never be extradited. IMHO That should be something the US public should deal with before looking for justice for the crimes against the US.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=toasty;720032]," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them -- especially when they're not citizens.

[/quote]

thats the bit that makes it hypocritical. If they were born in the states then no torture, born in mid-east - torture away!

but also

• ""When someone like this comes out, though, and basically says, "Hey, we did it, we're happy we did it, and we'd do it again," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them....."

as I'm sure you are aware in your field of work - there are plenty of US born rapists and murders - who profess the same thing - so are you ok to torture them?

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

OK, right off the bat, I was a bit pissed off when I wrote the original post, not sure I'd take exactly the same position now. With that said...

[quote=Huggie Smiles;722765]thats the bit that makes it hypocritical. If they were born in the states then no torture, born in mid-east - torture away![/quote]

Well, I honestly meant that more as a statement in favor of the preservation of the constitutional rights for our citizens regardless of the situation rather than going out of our way to deny rights to non-citizens, mid-eastern or otherwise. Doesn't really read that way, I see, but my intended point was that the deprivation of constitutional rights is of no consequence as far as I'm concerned when the person whose rights are being deprived is not a citizen. My opposition to torture in the past has been based more upon the Geneva Conventions and common human decency than a desire to extend constitutional protections to non-citizens.

[quote=Huggie Smiles;722765] but also

• ""When someone like this comes out, though, and basically says, "Hey, we did it, we're happy we did it, and we'd do it again," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them....."

as I'm sure you are aware in your field of work - there are plenty of US born rapists and murders - who profess the same thing - so are you ok to torture them?[/quote]

No, but I see that differently. A rapist or murderer typically directs his actions at one particular person, or maybe a small group of people, whereas an admitted terrorist has goals that are designed to affect all of us, even if only indirectly. For the record, I do think that there are murderers and rapists out there that probably deserve a healthy ration of cruel and unusual punishment, but our justice system has decreed that that not happen, and I'm OK with that.

Ultimately, though, the fact that I would give the green light as to this particular bunch of folks is that I feel like making statements like this are effectively daring us to mess with them, and because there's no chance of unfairly punishing someone who is innocent. Be careful what you wish for, IMO.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I did wonder if your initial post was a heat of the moment thing tbh!

[quote=toasty;722802] Ultimately, though, the fact that I would give the green light as to this particular bunch of folks is that I feel like making statements like this are effectively daring us to mess with them, and because there's no chance of unfairly punishing someone who is innocent. Be careful what you wish for, IMO.[/quote]

there is a no chance that one of these idiots had a small role to play - but they have exaggerated their role for martyrdom ??? hence a small margin of error to torture the wrong person, but a margin of error nonetheless?

OR admitted their guilt of a significant role only under torture to begin with?

"No, but I see that differently. A rapist or murderer typically directs his actions at one particular person, or maybe a small group of people, whereas an admitted terrorist has goals that are designed to affect all of us, even if only indirectly. "

so the more people you rape and kill the more likely you are to agree with their torture? Its a correlation?

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Huggie Smiles;722808] there is a no chance that one of these idiots had a small role to play - but they have exaggerated their role for martyrdom ??? hence a small margin of error to torture the wrong person, but a margin of error nonetheless?

OR admitted their guilt of a significant role only under torture to begin with? [/quote]

Well, the atmospherics surrounding these admissions didn't suggest to me that this was coerced, so I didn't really consider that as a possibility. If they chose to exaggerate their own role in the interest of martyrdom, I think they have to be ready for the consequences of that decision, which is that otherwise peace-loving people like myself will say, "Hey, torture away, these guys have earned it -- if not by their deeds, then by their completely callous disregard for human life."

[quote=Huggie Smiles;722808] "No, but I see that differently. A rapist or murderer typically directs his actions at one particular person, or maybe a small group of people, whereas an admitted terrorist has goals that are designed to affect all of us, even if only indirectly. "

so the more people you rape and kill the more likely you are to agree with their torture? Its a correlation?[/quote]

Not in terms of raw numbers -- more a question of intent. For most murderers, I'm assuming the calculus is, "I want that person dead" -- it's a personal thing that society as a whole isn't really involved in, apart from the need to see that an appropriate punishment is doled out. The terrorist thing is an affront to all of us, and if someone is going to kill 3000 people and then go out of his way to cheerlead the death of every remaining living person in this country, hey, you can only poke the bear for so long.

I freely acknowledge that it may be hypocritical and that it may not make a lot of sense. I just view these guys differently, and it has nothing to do with their citizenry and everything to do with their words and actions.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=toasty;722814]. The terrorist thing is an affront to all of us, and if someone is going to kill 3000 people and then go out of his way to cheerlead the death of every remaining living person in this country, hey, you can only poke the bear for so long. [/quote]

I dont disagree - but isnt the bear already bombing the fuck out of their homeland - how does torturing these 5 individuals help the bear prevent future acts?

[quote=toasty;722814]."I freely acknowledge that it may be hypocritical and that it may not make a lot of sense. I just view these guys differently, and it has nothing to do with their citizenry and everything to do with their words and actions.[/quote]

I'm sure the Iranians or Yemenis' or Liberians view NATO forces differently - and view their words and actions as cheerleading the death of their society. But it doesn't give them the right to torture NATO forces IMO. Ie who gets to decide what words are actions are worthy of an individual being tortured? If the Geneva Conventions and common human decency apply - then they should apply to everyone - no matter how big a psychopathic cunt you are?

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Huggie Smiles;722828]I dont disagree - but isnt the bear already bombing the fuck out of their homeland - how does torturing these 5 individuals help the bear prevent future acts? [/quote]

Oh, it doesn't at all. Purely my own sadistic, primal desire for retribution. :twisted:

[quote=Huggie Smiles;722828] I'm sure the Iranians or Yemenis' or Liberians view NATO forces differently - and view their words and actions as cheerleading the death of their society. But it doesn't give them the right to torture NATO forces IMO. Ie who gets to decide what words are actions are worthy of an individual being tortured? If the Geneva Conventions and common human decency apply - then they should apply to everyone - no matter how big a psychopathic cunt you are?[/quote]

Yeah, you're probably ultimately right on this -- like I said a few posts ago, this post was the result of a kind of visceral reaction for me. Sorta like, "OK, I'm against torture 99.9% of the time -- but these 5 guys have earned it." I certainly can't claim that everything I post makes a hell of a lot of sense...

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=superdave;720045] See the show 24 for examples.[/quote]

To this day there has never been a ticking time bomb scenario where torture has been the only way of extracting information in order to prevent a terrorist attack.

There was a total lack of transparency regarding The 9-11 Commission Report and so many unanswered questions it makes anything these men say just sound like nonsense.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Torture is never appropriate.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=didi;723584]torture is never appropriate.[/quote]

200%

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=DIDI;723584]Torture is never appropriate.[/quote]

I agree 100% - but we could make exceptions for certain people (George Bush and Tony Bliar spring to mind)

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=DIDI;723584]Torture is never appropriate.[/quote]

cant believe this would be the first time we disagree. I'm not "for" torture in the sense of hurting another human, but if you see where this human is coming from in terms of what he has done to deserve what is being dished to him, hell yes I am for it. Be it mild-torture (head dunking in water) or gruesome torture (plucking nails with pliers).

karma doesn't see neutral ground, you get what you've given. the severity of the crime should balance how you get thrashed.

And this isn't only for the terrorist elements, child-rapists stand higher up the torture chain for me. those guys need a slow and painful life till they die naturally.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Its seems to me these people in the article claim to of masterminded the attacks but they failed to go into details of their roles in the plot. Its sounds to me like they are claiming to something they didn't do. Normally when someone comes forward and claims to of committed a crime the can get into specifics. So you want to torture them for mouthing off`?

Personally I dont think anyone will ever be convicted over 9/11. Because in order to have a trial you have to have the evidence and 8 years later we are still waiting. All I've ever herd is speculation and nonsense

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Kamal;723664] Be it mild-torture (head dunking in water) or gruesome torture (plucking nails with pliers).

karma doesn't see neutral ground, you get what you've given. the severity of the crime should balance how you get thrashed. .[/quote]

how does your karma treat the person who does the torturing? they are scot free as its government sanctioned? I am curious to hear your views on this?

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Huggie Smiles;723717]how does your karma treat the person who does the torturing? they are scot free as its government sanctioned? I am curious to hear your views on this?[/quote]

even God kicked satan's ass, you saying he should've stayed passive through the ordeal because of karma? someone's gotta do the ass kicking of the wrong...... right?

as for "government sanctioned", u really asking me that Q? I dont know of any government in the world that will legally authorize this. People in charge are told to do what "needs to be, to get the job done". Go ahead spend the billions that you need to in legal cases and court costs when 1 week with a good spank will get you the answers you need.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Kamal;723734]even God kicked satan's ass, you saying he should've stayed passive through the ordeal because of karma? someone's gotta do the ass kicking of the wrong...... right?

as for "government sanctioned", u really asking me that Q? I dont know of any government in the world that will legally authorize this. People in charge are told to do what "needs to be, to get the job done". Go ahead spend the billions that you need to in legal cases and court costs when 1 week with a good spank will get you the answers you need.[/quote]

you brought up karma not me!! :lol::lol:

but you are advocating - in your view - pedophiles and terrorists should be tortured due to the severity of their crime - right? "hell yes I am for it. Be it mild-torture (head dunking in water) or gruesome torture (plucking nails with pliers)."

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Huggie Smiles;723752]you brought up karma not me!! :lol::lol:

but you are advocating - in your view - pedophiles and terrorists should be tortured due to the severity of their crime - right? "hell yes I am for it. Be it mild-torture (head dunking in water) or gruesome torture (plucking nails with pliers)."[/quote]

:what what has karma got to do with governments letting "prison beatings/tortures" slip-by? call me mate, we're having a disconnect of epic proportions.

As for being an "advocate"... no, if I was ever in the position to, I would never personally pass a law enforcing torture, there is a greater part of me that is non-violent. if my comments appeared to seem as though I'd be one dishing it out with passion had I been given the chance, then that wasn't what I intended to portray by a long shot.

all I'm trying to say is that I'm not against people facing the blunt end of the law by those who are in a position and are willing to dish it out and I for one am not against the treatment meted out to the guilty.

it's kinda like being stuck in the place of being against animal cruelty, yet willing to dine on a medium-well filet mignon.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Afraid I disagree really strongly on this one!! It would actually be a bit freaky if we agreed on absolutely everything !! :)

You can't get away from the fact that who ever is doing the torturing is doing a very bad thing!! Torture is a lose, lose situation. !!!

Btw If the animal has had a good life and killed quickly and cleanly there ain't nothing wrong with a good fillet mignon. :lol: However medium-well is a crime against the beast and consumer !! :lol:

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=DIDI;725456]Afraid I disagree really strongly on this one!! It would actually be a bit freaky if we agreed on absolutely everything !! :)

You can't get away from the fact that who ever is doing the torturing is doing a very bad thing!! Torture is a lose, lose situation. !!!

Btw If the animal has had a good life and killed quickly and cleanly there ain't nothing wrong with a good fillet mignon. :lol: However medium-well is a crime against the beast and consumer !! :lol:[/quote]

well we wouldn't wanna freak you out now would we..... perhaps I should've said it as, I have almost always agreed with the sentiment in all of your argument and this is probably the first time I think differently.

As for medium-well being a crime against the "beast", there is a saying in my language that says (and this is a lose translation cause I the literal one would've been a line worthy of standup) "The Devils of war cannot be convinced by art of conversation".

Like I said before, we'll just agree to disagree ;)

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Remember being a kid, and your older brother would hold you down and drop spit almost down to your face and then suck it up?

You would pretty much do anything to make him stop.

With torture on a grand scale, such as water boarding, lack of sleep, cold conditions, and being made to stand for hours on end, you would say or do anything to make it stop.

That being said, the validity of statements from these prisoners after being tortured, could be next to nothing.

Torture makes people talk, but it does not mean that they are telling the truth. They just want the torture to stop.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=lilsensa;726409] Torture makes people talk, but it does not mean that they are telling the truth. They just want the torture to stop.[/quote]

Along these lines:

[QUOTE]The Gambian government rounded up about a thousand people in a massive witch hunt last week. Literally. They really believed these people were witches and presented an existential threat to the Gambia.

They made many of the accused drink potions to get them to confess to being witches. They then dunked a lot of them in that same "dirty water." Finally, they tortured them to within an inch of their life. And lo and behold, they confessed. It turns out there are witches in Gambia!

At least, Dick Cheney must think so, because torture works, right? Or is it possible that people will say absolutely anything to get you to stop torturing them, including admitting to being a witch?

The President of Gambia was rumored to have said, "Fighting witches is a tough, mean, dirty, nasty business. These are evil people. And we're not going to win this fight by turning the other cheek."

So, I would like to ask all conservatives, neoconservatives and Republicans who defended the Bush-Cheney regime of torture: If torture works, are those people in Gambia really witches?[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/dick-cheney-believes-ther_b_177891.html[/url]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Cheney is a witch fo sho - ! :)

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That is mindless torture, which I too am dead against that. If you round up a bunch of suspects with your head in the sand and just because you are looking to blame someone due to lack of your own abilities in trying to resolve a case, then you get into a mindless witch hunt as above.

Torture of the accused, especially those who have confessed to a crime before any harm was done to them, is mainly what I am referring to. They get what's due to them in their own right and remember this in return, for when they potentially reform and are out on the streets.

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

[quote=Kamal;727112]Torture of the accused, especially those who have confessed to a crime before any harm was done to them, is mainly what I am referring to. They get what's due to them in their own right and remember this in return, for when they potentially reform and are out on the streets.[/quote] But you get no information from them. We're now talking about torture for revenge / "moral correction" vs. torture for the sake of extracting valuable information that might save lives. The former is what they do in the Middle East when they do stuff like hack off your hand for stealing (not a great idea, in my opinion); the latter is the kind that I thought might be the case as it related to America. And as far as the logic there goes, I agree with lisensa: you torture someone enough, and they will tell you whatever you want to hear in order to make the pain stop.