[url]http://members.cox.net/macallan_the/falluja.asf[/url]

related article:

[url]http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041114/D86BSORO0.html[/url]

:KillYou:

crazy shit. Nerves of steel, those folks have...

wow. :shock:

get out the popcorn right?

more :Boom: = :Cheerz:

be all you can be

what heroes!!!! :roll:

get rid of this postmodern trash

:o

[quote=sacredawe78]get out the popcorn right?

more :Boom: = :Cheerz:

be all you can be

what heroes!!!! :roll:

get rid of this postmodern trash[/quote]

Your a fucking moron. As if you haven't had your ass pounded enough since screaming I HATE AMERICA. You don't like it then leave- but this is reality. The truth is called hate by those who hate the truth... would you rather be blind to what is taking place in Iraq? Cause most Americans are and are quite satisfied in keeping it that way. I did not get joy in watchin this video, just shows what its like to be at war. None of us are happy that we are at war, but there is nothing we can do about it, not our decision to make. Your boy John Kerry even told Brokaw a week before the election, "I can't guaruntee if I was President, that we still wouldn't be at war with Iraq." No matter who wins, we lose. You should be taken out back and stoned.

you're a violent little bitch aren't you?

i don't like the war...you're right...but that is all you're right about

john kerry is not my "boy"

we are in iraq because of george bush and his cohort's decision to go there

as far as the "postmodern" reference...i am sick of the general aesthetic that puts people who commit evil as heroes...it is all over...and the general interpretation that it might be "cool" is no different than that aesthetic

i should be "stoned"....i should be stoned on some sort of drug that offers mind expansion...if you are referring to death...then all i can say is you are really pathetic thinking you can intimidate someone on your computer, sad...and ultimately it just shows how much of a pussy you are

please threaten me more...you pathetic fuck

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

It's not even worth it Balance - responding will only fan the flames. With every post it becomes more apparent that sacredawe is less interested in voicing his beliefs than he is in garnering attention. He's like that guy in Good Will Hunting - the one with the ponytail at the bar: very well read but lacking in originality. Nearly everything he's typed is a hodgepodge of various utopian and postmodern ideals but none of it carries any reality to it - it great fodder for the classroom but falls flat once you get off campus.

So let him regurgitate all the Baudrillard he wants - he's not looking for a debate but a forum to spew all the philosophies he's been reading about.

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[quote=BSully828]It's not even worth it Balance - responding will only fan the flames. With every post it becomes more apparent that sacredawe is less interested in voicing his beliefs than he is in garnering attention. He's like that guy in Good Will Hunting - the one with the ponytail at the bar: very well read but lacking in originality. Nearly everything he's typed is a hodgepodge of various utopian and postmodern ideals but none of it carries any reality to it - it great fodder for the classroom but falls flat once you get off campus.

So let him regurgitate all the Baudrillard he wants - he's not looking for a debate but a forum to spew all the philosophies he's been reading about.[/quote]

its obvious you're on the defense because of some lack of understanding...if you don't like what i say, give me reasons...i am open to listening...

but it seems all you would like to do is to be a "realist", which seems to me to convey a lack of progress and if all you want to do is avoid negativity...how do you do make change for the better?? ignore it??

lastly your cynicism is just typical of what ive discussed on earlier subjects...you think everything i say is for selfish reasons...you may be right...however, i think that is an inherent fact of nature...i think that when people should argue...it is how progress happens...

what good can ignorance do when there is so much rampant evil?

im not interested in regurgitating ideas with no progression...i want our species to progress...if i ask the tough questions or offer alternatives that seem radical, its only because it is so strikingly obvious that it must be the case...we live in a world with no morality at all...there is no reasoning for the group that makes any sense

ignorance and cyncism in today's culture to me is just the banalization of evil...its so gratuitious, you think that it must be "real," hence anyone who thinks about change must be avoiding the truth, right??...then those "outcasts" could be considered selfish psychopaths such as myself...which seems to be what people feel here

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[quote=sacredawe78][quote=BSully828]It's not even worth it Balance - responding will only fan the flames. With every post it becomes more apparent that sacredawe is less interested in voicing his beliefs than he is in garnering attention. He's like that guy in Good Will Hunting - the one with the ponytail at the bar: very well read but lacking in originality. Nearly everything he's typed is a hodgepodge of various utopian and postmodern ideals but none of it carries any reality to it - it great fodder for the classroom but falls flat once you get off campus.

So let him regurgitate all the Baudrillard he wants - he's not looking for a debate but a forum to spew all the philosophies he's been reading about.[/quote]

it's obvious you're on the defense because of some lack of understanding...if you don't like what i say, give me reasons...i am open to listening...

but it seems all you would like to do is to be a "realist", which seems to me to convey a lack of progress and if all you want to do is avoid negativity...how do you do make change for the better?? ignore it??

lastly your cynicism is just typical of what ive discussed on earlier subjects...you think everything i say is for selfish reasons...you may be right...however, i think that is an inherent fact of nature...i think that when people should argue...it is how progress happens...

what good can ignorance do when there is so much rampant evil?

im not interested in regurgitating ideas with no progression...i want our species to progress...if i ask the tough questions or offer alternatives that seem radical, its only because it is so strikingly obvious that it must be the case...we live in a world with no morality at all...there is no reasoning for the group that makes any sense

ignorance and cyncism in today's culture to me is just the banalization of evil...its so gratuitious, you think that it must be "real," hence anyone who thinks about change must be avoiding the truth, right??...then those "outcasts" could be considered selfish psychopaths such as myself...which seems to be what people feel here[/quote]

I am new to this board, and I am a Canadian who spent the better part of her young life in the US.

I am disdained by the effects of this war, and how it has destroyed many lives both American and Foreign on the basis of tainted evidence. Anyone with a moderate education and insight into the world around them is well aware that this war was purely a lucrative avenue for the wonderful leaders of the US.

I know that we can only look forward and try to ammend what has occured. But I find it difficult to fathom that the Bush administration has any intention of leaving the Middle East alone. He would have attacked Syria had his advisors not pursuaded him against it.

It's really a big shame that so many are blind to the truth, and still digest this utter shit about WMDs and plotting. Perhaps one should start reading points of view external to the US, the many other countries who actually bother to seek knowledge beyond our borders.

My only suggestion is that people stop playing the victim and sympathise with those who really have been victimised.

Thank you Sacred, for not ignoring what is evident.

I can't believe your on that side..^^ .. What is everyones plan then to stop the planes from flying into buildings?? this is what has to happen.. these aren't peaceful countries the US is invading.. I am glad that you have an opinion but don't feel bad for thoses we are killing there.. feel bad for the average joe worker who went to work sept 11 2001 who had kids and a family that loved him..and don't say "Oh that is horrible as well".. no they started it and they are hiding in these countries behind woman and children and idiots like you feel bad for them.. so wake up and smell reality.. the world as we once knew it will be no more.. when the USA goes into Iran the real shit will hit the fan..

That was Osama Bin Laden. He's from Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

The problem is that many people think the middle east is one big country, but it is comprised of many; most whom are not associated with the Taliban. We must learn to distinguish ourselves and to stop generalizing about an entire country, and we must break the language barriers.

The Iraqi invasion is based purely on the profit of oil. Start familiarizing yourselves on how high stock prices have risen since the US has invaded, and start researching the US' many years of association with the bin laden family themselves. It is no coincidence that they were given refuge BY THE USA when the two towers were destroyed.

You want to me to think about the lives and cry. I certainly did. But I also cry for the people of angola and sierra leone whom are being pileaged for diamonds! I can name a million places where people are mercilessely killed and ravaged for no reason. Has the US paused for a brief moment to grieve for them? I think not.

This is exactly the ignorance that is constant. You didn't even know the difference between afghanistan and Iraq...It's like saying Americans are Canadians and vice versa.

Start reading real literary resources and turn off the C-Span, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC.

Oh come on oil?? Why hasn't the price of gas gone down then?? Why would the USA help them and convince the american public to send soldiers for a war that isn't theirs.. For angola and sierra leone that is up to the UN.. Where are they now?? Why aren't they there more?? because they don't do a God Damn thing about anything.. The Us is trying to protect itself.. If the US went against the UN why didn't the UN step in??

[quote=Trillian]That was Osama Bin Laden. He's from Afghanistan. Not Iraq.[/quote]

That was Al Qaeda. They're from all over the world. Including Iraq.

Sacredawe - I agree with what you're saying, but I cannot see how you think it can be accomplished. I'm with you 100% in the idea that we, as a species, need to elevate ourselves beyond where we are now - beyond class, race, religion, ect.. ect.. And in order for that to happen we, as a species, have to combine our efforts towards such a goal and eliminate the social constructs I just mentioned.

The problem is that such an act requires all those involved to have the same goal in mind, start on the same level, work in equal partnership - there must be a universal desire among humans as a species to work together. Right now, that is only a dream - forces that have been in play longer than any of us have been alive have been at work maintaining inequity among the human race. Let it be through class structure, or distribution of wealth or whatever - that inequity has been at work for ages. The focus of that work is forged in hatred, ignorance, and fear - and each can manifest itself in evil.

Whether you believe evil begets hatred or vice versa, the fact is there is evil in the world. From reading your posts I feel that you believe (and if I'm misrepresenting you here, I apologize) that there is no quantifying evil - evil is evil no matter what the form. Which I don't agree with, but can certainly understand. For you, the soldier in this video is no different than the hijackers of 9/11 - they both committed an evil act therefore are evil. And you believe that as long as such evil acts occur we, as a species, will never elevate ourselves to that harmonious world.

I'll avoid getting into specifics to keep this brief, but that is where I find fault in your theory. You don't seem to recognize that the type of transcendence you are calling for requires worldwide cooperation. And worldwide cooperation cannot take place until evil has been replaced. You used the phrase "inherent fact of nature" in reference to the apparent "selfishness" of arguing ideas. It is also an "inherent fact of nature" that there is evil in this world.

Despite the fact that there those whose life work it is to do good, there is evil in this world. Regardless of how strongly you want this human race to ascend to higher planes of thought, there is evil in this world. This is a fact no one can argue - there are evil people out there whose sole bent is to defeat and destroy. As long as there are evil people in this world, the type of unification needed to advance our species will always have opposition.

So where is the "ignorance" in this? Am I ignorant because I don't believe the idea of a utopia is possible in our lifetime? Am I too much of a realist because I recognize and acquiesce to this fact? I would love to live in the world you describe and be free of such things as class, wealth, war and evil - but I also understand that along with all our strengths, those foul traits are an "inherent fact of nature" to man.

My question to you then is, how do we ascend to the higher state? What would you have man do in order to rid himself of the very qualities that make such a venture impossible?

[quote=runningman]Oh come on oil?? Why hasn't the price of gas gone down then?? [/quote]

And why would we start a war 1/2 way around the world, face international criticism and scrutiny, foster distrust among our own citizens, and send our own sons and daughters in to imminent danger every day all for something we could get in our own backyard (Alaska).

And why would we have the pumps in Iraq manned by the coalition and [i]still continue to fight[/i]. Twice we were sitting right on the faucet, we could have flown in the Clampets and gone to work pumping away, but we didn't.

[/quote] My question to you then is, how do we ascend to the higher state? What would you have man do in order to rid himself of the very qualities that make such a venture impossible?[/quote]

Tap her red shoes three times.... Tap.. tap.. tap.. There's no place like home.. .Utopia............ I wish.. :roll:

[quote=Trillian] The Iraqi invasion is based purely on the profit of oil. Start familiarizing yourselves on how high stock prices have risen since the US has invaded, and start researching the US' many years of association with the bin laden family themselves. It is no coincidence that they were given refuge BY THE USA when the two towers were destroyed. [/quote]

Funny, people said the first Gulf War was about oil too....but that turned out NOT to be the case. Also, you must remember that most of the bin Laden family disowned Osama, and his Saudi citizenship was revoked in 1991. Bush clearly stated that Iraqi oil is for the Iraqi people. Now having said that, and with so many eyes on the U.S., do you really think the U.S. would forcefully take Iraqi oil? It turns out that France, China, Russia, and the U.N. were all taking bribes from Saddam. Notice that the U.S. is not on that list? Those countries as well as the U.N. are also partly to blame for what's going on over there. Those countries each obtained oil wells in Iraq in exchange for money that Saddam used to fund suicide bombers in Palestine. Wouldn't it be a [b]responsible[/b] and fair assumption that Saddam would have supplied other terrorists with funding and weapons?

Here are my beliefs as to why we're really over there, and it might sound like a stretch to some. While I do believe Saddam would have eventually posed a threat to the world, he would have definitely posed a threat to Israel. Israel is the key in this war. It's my belief that we're over there to maintain a military presence in order to protect Israel and to try to spread freedom. The hope is that, just like in the former Communist countries, freedom will prevail. I won't get into a religious discussion, but I believe this is just another battle in a holy war.

Also, please give me some links or names of other news sources besides CNN, FOX, etc...I would like to check those out....

[quote=BSully828][quote=Trillian]That was Osama Bin Laden. He's from Afghanistan. Not Iraq.[/quote]

That was Al Qaeda. They're from all over the world. Including Iraq.

Sacredawe - I agree with what you're saying, but I cannot see how you think it can be accomplished. I'm with you 100% in the idea that we, as a species, need to elevate ourselves beyond where we are now - beyond class, race, religion, ect.. ect.. And in order for that to happen we, as a species, have to combine our efforts towards such a goal and eliminate the social constructs I just mentioned.

The problem is that such an act requires all those involved to have the same goal in mind, start on the same level, work in equal partnership - there must be a universal desire among humans as a species to work together. Right now, that is only a dream - forces that have been in play longer than any of us have been alive have been at work maintaining inequity among the human race. Let it be through class structure, or distribution of wealth or whatever - that inequity has been at work for ages. The focus of that work is forged in hatred, ignorance, and fear - and each can manifest itself in evil.

Whether you believe evil begets hatred or vice versa, the fact is there is evil in the world. From reading your posts I feel that you believe (and if I'm misrepresenting you here, I apologize) that there is no quantifying evil - evil is evil no matter what the form. Which I don't agree with, but can certainly understand. For you, the soldier in this video is no different than the hijackers of 9/11 - they both committed an evil act therefore are evil. And you believe that as long as such evil acts occur we, as a species, will never elevate ourselves to that harmonious world.

I'll avoid getting into specifics to keep this brief, but that is where I find fault in your theory. You don't seem to recognize that the type of transcendence you are calling for requires worldwide cooperation. And worldwide cooperation cannot take place until evil has been replaced. You used the phrase "inherent fact of nature" in reference to the apparent "selfishness" of arguing ideas. It is also an "inherent fact of nature" that there is evil in this world.

Despite the fact that there those whose life work it is to do good, there is evil in this world. Regardless of how strongly you want this human race to ascend to higher planes of thought, there is evil in this world. This is a fact no one can argue - there are evil people out there whose sole bent is to defeat and destroy. As long as there are evil people in this world, the type of unification needed to advance our species will always have opposition.

So where is the "ignorance" in this? Am I ignorant because I don't believe the idea of a utopia is possible in our lifetime? Am I too much of a realist because I recognize and acquiesce to this fact? I would love to live in the world you describe and be free of such things as class, wealth, war and evil - but I also understand that along with all our strengths, those foul traits are an "inherent fact of nature" to man.

My question to you then is, how do we ascend to the higher state? What would you have man do in order to rid himself of the very qualities that make such a venture impossible?[/quote]

unlike your earlier comment, i respect your thoughtfulness here and it reduces the ultimate question to a very clear understanding...

that is : what do we do? what sort of prescpriptive or normative possibilities are there when in fact evil is an "inherent part of nature" and moral progress indeed, does need worldwide cooperation??

in capitalism, relationships are defined by profit and loss...they are not defined by what is good...therefore, we would have to get rid of it

morality has to be a science...that is the only way...it has to be viewed as a consequentialist empirically verifiable thing, where we can see and observe what is good and implement those things while reducing the bad

people such as David Hume and indeed most of the cynics of todays culture would say that "ought does not imply can"...meaning just because something can be scientifically proven, or something is taking for granted as being true for any set period of time does not guarantee that it will happen again...and normative statements have no real clout

so, people tend to say any normative statement such as you should do this or that because it is good gets completely discredited because they would argue that there is no substantial argument that would guaruntee that those things suggested have any real clout...they basically are "pipe dreams"

i think that this sort of thinking needs to be reduced and all together elimated, along with capitalism

i think people think way too deductively...meaning, that there should always be a unified answer to each problem, as if in some sort of absolutist sequence, however, i honestly feel that deductive reasoning is almost an illusion...i feel that given that we live within entropy and given that Hume's arguments make sense, inductive reasoning is the only thing we can do...that is reason based on probablity anyways

soooo...absolutism, such as the psychology in any monotheistic religion, capitalism and its stresses on the individual, the removal of deductivist thinkiing as being valued (i.e. recognizing we are part of nature, not above it)

St. Augustines Great Chain of Being =

God

Angels

Man

Woman

Nature

Need to remove this thinking that is everywhere....

I mean everything I am saying is disjointed and you may have to take it all in associatively for now...but there is something brewing here and it is good

I think if people just sit around say that evil is inherent in nature and use that in itself as a normative basis for their life....evil will just be augmented, not reduced

shouldn't we just try and reduce variables here, rather than produce more for the sake of it??

that takes a transvaluation of values as Nietzche would say

I suggest you read Alisdair McNtyres book "After Virtue" for a complete synopsis of the last 2000+ years in Ethics...it will offer at least an understanding of where we have been

sorry for being cluttered, but as i said, lets simplify things together...fill in some blanks...well progress...and youll see that in our argument, in itself, we have achieved moral utopia...well be dynamic, well stick to a level playing field (the argument), well both depend on each other for our existence, well have "selves", well be concerened with the group and the individual at the same time, and overcome all the paradoxical bonds that weve been sewed to thus far....well be dynamic, avoid dogma, etc

look at Plato's "Meno"...youll notice they try to figure out what virtue is and never really find an answer...

but i say, there arguing in itself achieves all the moral progress and perfections that we can possible make while living in entropy

we should all value such things...reduce morality to a science and value inductive logic...harness the paradox...values...values...values

Religion and Philosophy the way of keeping common people quiet. A necessity to keep order and guide the people, like a shepherd and his flock of sheep. They are closely linked yet utter bullshit. :wink:

[quote=Balanc3]Philisophy is all about bs just like religion. But hope it works for you. :wink:[/quote]

we're all philosophers...it is our most basic science, so it pertains to all of us...not just me

[quote=Trillian]The Iraqi invasion is based purely on the profit of oil. Start familiarizing yourselves on how high stock prices have risen since the US has invaded, and start researching the US' many years of association with the bin laden family themselves. It is no coincidence that they were given refuge BY THE USA when the two towers were destroyed.[/quote]

I love how all of you that oppose the war start with "reseach this" and "read that" any time someone says something supporting it. Like you are [b]SOOOO[/b] much more "cultured" and "educated" and "versed in the ways of the world." In case you haven't "researched" the issue enough Osama Bin Laden has been completely disowned by his entire family. But I heard that on Fox News so there is [b]NO WAY[/b] it could possibly be true.

Your "only for oil" comment completely trashed any chance of me taking your post seriously. No one knows what is really going on anymore, so before you continue to try and "enlighten" us....don't.

[quote=Trillian]Start reading real literary resources and turn off the C-Span, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC.[/quote]

More enlightenment??? Please point me towards these "real literary resources" so I can bring myself up to your level.

i know if sacredawe is talking to not even bother.. he is lost in his perfect world..

^^^^ Yes don't bother. Instead join runningman on his holy crusade against Iran and North Korea. :roll:

[quote=gokada] Funny, people said the first Gulf War was about oil too....but that turned out NOT to be the case. [/quote]

I think it was at least partially about the oil. Do you think the US would rush in if some oil-less country was invaded? I don't think so, although these are purely my speculations. I have heard a lot of contradicting facts about GW I, so I'm not quite sure what to think, but I'm still allowing the possibility that the Americans were not as well-intended as it may had seemed.

[quote=gokada] Also, you must remember that most of the bin Laden family disowned Osama, and his Saudi citizenship was revoked in 1991. [/quote]

Although that is an official fact, I find it hard to believe that he has lost contact with all of his family, after all the Bin Laden's are a big family, but again these are merely my speculations.

[quote=gokada] Bush clearly stated that Iraqi oil is for the Iraqi people. Now having said that, and with so many eyes on the U.S., do you really think the U.S. would forcefully take Iraqi oil? [/quote]

It's not that they would forcefully take Iraqi oil. But all the reconstruction of Iraq will be done mostly by American companies and supervised by Americans (like I believe the oil trade is at the moment), thus creating a unique incumbent position on the Iraqi "market" (including the oil market; American companies will probably have the sole right to build and reconstruct oil wells).

[quote=gokada] It turns out that France, China, Russia, and the U.N. were all taking bribes from Saddam. Notice that the U.S. is not on that list? [/quote]

Could you please provide a source for your claims? What kind of bribes?

[quote=gokada] Those countries as well as the U.N. are also partly to blame for what's going on over there. Those countries each obtained oil wells in Iraq in exchange for money that Saddam used to fund suicide bombers in Palestine. [/quote]

I think the entire world is to blame for what has happened and is happening in Iraq (by which I also mean that a lot if not most of the blame lies on the USA; they were supporting Saddam and helped him remain in power, while they were still "friends").

Regarding the oil wells, I thought that exchanging oil wells for money might be called trade. :wink: I think Iraq had a lot of international debts, so it was kind of logical he had to pay them off somehow (oil included). And do you have any proof, that he used the money he received from the French, Russian and the Chinese, to fund Palestinian psychopaths (suicide bombers). Even though, I believe (again not a fact, but my opinion) that most of the Arab world is funding Palestinian terrorists (including the American friends the Saudis), that's just the way things are.

[quote=gokada] Wouldn't it be a responsible and fair assumption that Saddam would have supplied other terrorists with funding and weapons? [/quote]

Not really. :wink: I will get back to that and explain it later... :)

[quote]i know if sacredawe is talking to not even bother.. he is lost in his perfect world..[/quote]

so very true. :lol:

killing people is wrong

if you condone it, then im lost in your fucked up world

asdf and runningman...you guys are such groupies

herded fools

it's all about the money...imo the europeans just had there hand in the cookie jar far to long and they did want to share.

gentlemen the world is in chaos right now.. Ukraine, Iraq and the biggest one of all Africa.. the world doesn't share your same pro-life values.. they strap bombs on themselves.. how do you reason with someone like that?? you can't.. and brakada you should it explain it for once.. you like picking at what we say but no solutions.. ya i can say education, health, but that willl take 30 years to get in place.. so what do we do for the next 30 years?? this battle was necessary to win the war on terror and the war in Iraq to give them education and freedom.. other countries need an example..and the USA needs an aliie to put troops and planes in the event of an Iran, Lebanon or Saudi invasion.. :RockOn:

... honestly u guys have to understand.. there are TERRORIST out there that want north americans dead.. fuck!! where the fuck are u hiding in ur moms ass.. for u guys who dont fucking see it
SEPT 11th.. the day the world ended.. rite.. Yes Osama admited that he did plan that.. but where is he hiding.. and Iraq... Sadam has weapons, and his intended use for those was to bomb america.. u fuckin idiots dont see that.. i dont see how u cant!!! u just live in your fuckin sugar coated world.. and u dont care that thousands of innocent ppl died during the Sept 11th attack.. what cant u see.. how can u not see it..

the world is at war becuase THESE PEOPLE want EVERYONE dead.. research before voice your opinon.. becuase someone will come right back at u and bite u in the fuckin ass what happend in the '93 world trade center bombing.. that was a fuckin attack but no one cared becusae it wasnt a major deal... well clinton didnt really do ne thing about it.. but these things have been happening for years.. and its about time bush went in there and hes stopping it...

fuck all u ppl care about is ur fuckin economy.. yes its a shame that is has gone down but look into the damn future.. what if u wernt here to have kids.. and ur kids to have kids becusae ur dead.. because THEY killed u, beucase thats what they were trained to do.. kill.. most ppl in the middle eastern countries are being trained to kill bystanders.. just becuase they are american..

how could u possible live with yourself.. thinking what u think.. obviously ur too fuckin greedy to see past your rose coloured glasses

this is what the world has come to u cant do ne thign about it but support them they are doing this becuase someone out there is threating OUR FREEDOM!!

fuck go read up on it.. maybe now u wont fuckin open ur fuckin stupid ass mouth...

this isnt just to one person.. its all these ppl out there that say.. im agaisnt war.. bush is the terrorist... honestly

where do u get ur resourses from becuase.. they for sure arent correct!!

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

^^ You're right on a couple different levels.

I always wonder what all these people who say they are so against war would do if some terrorist fuck showed up on their doorstep and slaughted their entire family. I guran-fucking-tee they would say one of two things:

1. How could someone let this happen.

2. Where is the nearest gun.

Some people either can't or don't want to realize that they would kill every last one of us (Americans, that is) if given the chance. And they chastise us like little children who "know not what they do" for supporting the man who is trying to ensure that never happens. Whatever, I'm sure most of them are against the war because it's a war, and you are not supposed to support a war because war is bad. Not realizing that this is how every single major civilaztion in human history has been founded. Its the way of the world people...your self richeous, peace loving wishes of diplomacy and reasoning don't exist in the new post 9/11 world. Especially not against this enemy.

I mean could you seriously see Osama and Al-Zukari (spelling) sitting at a table negotiating an end to all of this violence in the Middle East??? Please. If you can I would love to know what color the sky is on the planet you're from. All they want is to kill anyone who stands in their way and then rule over the rest with fear and brutality. It's that simple. Yet some of you go on and on and on and on and on and on bitching and denouncing the only way that we can stop them. It's really quite comical some times. You are so blinded by the belief that war is bad and there should be no war, you don't even stop to think there is no other way. It's kill them before they kill us.

Sad but true...

[b]hear_my_name[/b], you sure don't make a strong point here my friend, and I don't really like the way you adress your fellow forum dwellers. If you really dispise us so mach, leave us alone.

[b]Evangelion[/b]: I've already mentioned in another post that Osama has been disowned by his family. Can't find the post right now though, sorry. So not everyone that is anti-Bush or anti Iraq-war is blind to information.

I for one try to use facts to base my opinion on, not other people's opinions. I rather look@myself as being informed, not nessecarily 'cultured' or 'educated', although the latter one could almost be the same thing.

And one can never be informed enough IMO.

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[quote=evangelion]^^ You're right on a couple different levels.

I always wonder what all these people who say they are so against war would do if some terrorist fuck showed up on their doorstep and slaughted their entire family. I guran-fucking-tee they would say one of two things:

1. How could someone let this happen.

2. Where is the nearest gun.

Some people either can't or don't want to realize that they would kill every last one of us (Americans, that is) if given the chance. And they chastise us like little children who "know not what they do" for supporting the man who is trying to ensure that never happens. Whatever, I'm sure most of them are against the war because it's a war, and you are not supposed to support a war because war is bad. Not realizing that this is how every single major civilaztion in human history has been founded. Its the way of the world people...your self richeous, peace loving wishes of diplomacy and reasoning don't exist in the new post 9/11 world. Especially not against this enemy.

I mean could you seriously see Osama and Al-Zukari (spelling) sitting at a table negotiating an end to all of this violence in the Middle East??? Please. If you can I would love to know what color the sky is on the planet you're from. All they want is to kill anyone who stands in their way and then rule over the rest with fear and brutality. It's that simple. Yet some of you go on and on and on and on and on and on bitching and denouncing the only way that we can stop them. It's really quite comical some times. You are so blinded by the belief that war is bad and there should be no war, you don't even stop to think there is no other way. It's kill them before they kill us.

Sad but true...[/quote]

I'm not going to repeat in detail what I've said about the motivation of Osama on this stuff Evangelion, read some of my posts on that.

I don't believe they want to kill everyone and rule the rest with fear and brutality, they just want the West to get the fuck off their property, if you get what I mean. Reading Osama's statement should have already made this clear to you.

As for my first reaction when something like that happened to me: I'm pretty sure I'd have the two thoughts you described, but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that. Violence is always the first reaction, the art is to look beyond that and search for a solution to the problem, not just to combat the symptoms of the 'disease'. At least, that is how I feel it.

Bush's reaction was expressing that what every American wanted to do after 9/11, but it didn't and will not solve any problems in the long run. Along with the lying about the WMD's, and the false connection with Al-Qu'aida that has made me a firm opposer of the war in Iraq. People have let themselves be lead by emotion rather than rationale.

Never stop thinking for yourself, don't just go with the flow. (only when you're having sex). :wink:

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

You missed my point entirely. It has nothing to do with being blind to information. It's the thought that they (you, whoever) thinks and honestly feels that they have [b]all[/b] of the information.

The person I was responding to used the fact that the Bin Ladens were flown out of their country on 9/11, not even acknowledging or referencing the fact that they have had nothing to do with him for going on 20 years. His actions are in no way tied to the Bin Laden family. But hey...Micheal Moore says it's important and golly gee it's one more thing to bash Bush about so I think I'll bring it up for the 1,000,000,000,000,000 time, even though it's been debunked as having no bearing on anything ages ago.

It's this holier than thou, I'm anti-war so I'm obviously more informed, I can rattle off the top 100 things Bush has done wrong off the top of my head, you need to reseach your facts from real news source and turn off CNN, Fox News and MSNBC because they are paid by the government to spread false information attitude I was addressing.

I'm sick of it...nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

Well mate, we do agree on Michael Moore using this information to create the image of Bush being linked to Osama. And we also agre in disliking the man for that, right?

Moore is a democratic fundamentalist IMO, he may have made some good points in his docu, but he sure is carrying this air of knowing all that is right and teaching the common people the right way too heavily. I think any American would consider me very liberal, but he even annoys me.

Since the start of the war, I have not heard a single argument in favour of it that has really made me reconsider my stance on it. Not a single one. Basically I have seen the same reasons get repeated over and over again, and of course the dems and I, too, have repeated the same arguments against it over and over, but so far I've seen the dems/libs backing up their opinions a bit more with numbers and facts than the reps.

You will probably disagree with me on this, but I'm used to people disagreeing with me on a full-time basis since I joined this forum...

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[quote=Yao]I'm not going to repeat in detail what I've said about the motivation of Osama on this stuff Evangelion, read some of my posts on that.

I don't believe they want to kill everyone and rule the rest with fear and brutality, they just want the West to get the fuck off their property, if you get what I mean. Reading Osama's statement should have already made this clear to you.

As for my first reaction when something like that happened to me: I'm pretty sure I'd have the two thoughts you described, but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that. Violence is always the first reaction, the art is to look beyond that and search for a solution to the problem, not just to combat the symptoms of the 'disease'. At least, that is how I feel it.

Bush's reaction was expressing that what every American wanted to do after 9/11, but it didn't and will not solve any problems in the long run. Along with the lying about the WMD's, and the false connection with Al-Qu'aida that has made me a firm opposer of the war in Iraq. People have let themselves be lead by emotion rather than rationale.

Never stop thinking for yourself, don't just go with the flow. (only when you're having sex). :wink:[/quote]

Please tell me what 9/11 had to with "getting the fuck off of their property" and not killing as many innocent American at one time as possible. Osama himself said it was an act of venenge that he had been plotting for almost 20 years.

It won't solve anything in the long run, huh? So tell me, what is your solution?? Try to negotiate and politic our way to peace?? Should he have begged Hitler to stop killing people?? Maybe if we asked really nicely he would have stopped right. Come on. Some people only understand one thing...brute military force. They are so stuck up their own ass that it really does take a M1 Abrams or a smart bomb to get it out. Once they realize that someone in this world is not going to stand idlely by and watch them do whatever it is that they are doing, they will think long and hard about doing it again. More times than not that responsiblity falls on us, the good 'ol US of A. I wonder why there wasn't been another terror attack since 9/11??

So here we go to your points:

1. lying about the WMD's - Old and tired, he was given misinformation. And anyone who really thinks that he didn't have any is lying to themselves and personally trying to justify their opposition to the war and Bush. Like he was going to just leave them there for us to find. Right.

2. the false connection with Al-Qu'aida - Like they are going to come out and say "Yeah, we were all in it together, come kill us all please." Al-Queda = terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist, thus Saddam more than likely had connections to Al-Queda. Plus, I really don't see why that matters as much as the anti-war set would have everyone believe. We were already seaching for Osama, so we should just sit back and...what, wait to find him and do nothing to stop the spread and supporters of terrorism in the meantime?? One at a time please..take a number.

It's a war on terrorism, not a war on Osama Bin Laden, Al-Queda or Saddam Hussein. And anyone who could say that Saddam was not terrorists with a straight face is a gifted human being.

[b]"but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that." [/b]

My point exactly!!!! Up on your high horse, looking down at me and saying "I would stop to rationalize that my family has just had their heads cut off and bodies mutilated with baseball bats and from there I would deceide the best course of action based the positive and negative outcome of the pending situation." So cool, calm and rational. Right, until it happens...then all of that BS going flying out the window. GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!

There is one difference between us dude...I support the war, you don't. All of that Zen, I'm a logical thinker and don't let my emotions cloud my judgement crap is your way of justifying your oppsistion to it. I don't need any of that...I support it, I've got me reasons. If you don't support it, don't try to change my mind.

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[quote=evangelion]Please tell me what 9/11 had to with "getting the fuck off of their property" and not killing as many innocent American at one time as possible. Osama himself said it was an act of venenge that he had been plotting for almost 20 years.[/quote]

Yes, and did you read about his reasons? But he picked up some more along the way to fulfilling his wish.

[quote=evangelion]It won't solve anything in the long run, huh? So tell me, what is your solution?? Try to negotiate and politic our way to peace?? Should he have begged Hitler to stop killing people?? Maybe if we asked really nicely he would have stopped right. Come on. Some people only understand one thing...brute military force. They are so stuck up their own ass that it really does take a M1 Abrams or a smart bomb to get it out. Once they realize that someone in this world is not going to stand idlely by a watch them do whatever it is that they are doing, they will think long and hard about doing it again. I wonder why there wasn't been another terror attack since 9/11??[/quote]

They needn't come to you now, there's enough Americans to be slain in Iraq. Don't compare Hitler to Saddam Evangelion, you know as well as I do that they are 2 different persons in 2 different situations.

Did you notice any extremists surrendering saying the beating they got made them come to their senses? I've only seen the violence and resistance against US forces grow, but maybe I'm blind. The harder you beat them, the angrier they seem to get.

[quote=evangelion]1. lying about the WMD's - Old and tired, he was given misinformation. And anyone who really thinks that he didn't have any is lying to themselves and personally trying to justify their opposition to the war and Bush. Like he was going to just leave them there for us to find. Right.[/quote]

Misinformation yes, but those were still lies, no? Being it lies from the CIA and Defense in this case I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). So Bush went to war based on lies. I didn't include a paragraph saying it had to be a product of Bush's mind...

[quote=evangelion]2. the false connection with Al-Qu'aida - Like they are going to come out and say "Yeah, we were all in it together, come kill us all please." Al-Queda = terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist, thus Saddam more than likely had connections to Al-Queda. Plus, I really don't see why that matters as much as the anti-war set would have everyone believe. We were already seaching for Osama, so we should just sit back and...what, wait to find him and do nothing to stop the spread and supporters of terrorism in the meantime?? One at a time please..take a number.[/quote]

Do you have proof of those connections? Don't think so, it is all assumption. Even your own commission concluded there was no proof of a link. Which also doesn't exclude it, but somehow I feel it would have been more obvious if Saddam had any links to A-Q. Maybe they wouldn't have let him rot in that basement, for instance. 1+1=2 does not equal Saddam+A-Q=terrorists.

[quote=evangelion]It's a war on terrorism, not a war on Osama Bin Laden, Al-Queda or Saddam Hussein. And anyone who could say that Saddam was not terrorists with a straight face is a gifted human being.[/quote]

I am not that gifted, sorry.

I support the war on terrorism, you would have known that if you had taken the time to read some of my previous posts, but I do not support the way it is fought. Terrorism is underground, and will not be eradicated by invading a whole country or changing a regime. I'd rather put my hopes on intelligence and special ops, and they've had some good results in the past. Most bombings or attacks that are prevented are the result of good intelligence, not the army crushing down on a whole area.

[quote=evangelion][b]"but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that." [/b]

My point exactly!!!! Up on your high horse, looking down at me and saying "I would stop to rationalize that my family has just had their heads cut off and bodies mutilated with baseball bats and from there I would deceide the best course of action based the positive and negative outcome of the pending situation." So cool, calm and rational. Right, until it happens...then all of that BS going flying out the window. GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!

There is one difference between us dude...I support the war, you don't. All of that Zen, I'm a logical thinker and don't let my emotions cloud my judgement crap is your way of justifying your oppsistion to it. I don't need any of that...I support it, I've got me reasons. If you don't support it, don't try to change my mind.[/quote]

I don't look down on you, I'm merely pointing out a difference between us, aight? You can interpret things your way if you want to, I didn't mean it like that. But I did admit to those other emotions. I'm only human too, and there's been enough occasions in my life that have proven that. But after the first reaction I do start looking beyond that, yes. And if you think I'm arrogant for pointing out this difference between us, then so be it. Think you're the only one that has has hard times in his life? Sorry to dissapoint you...you don't know the half of me.

Seems we're not gonna keep this discussion cool and calm, so let's call it a day eh? No hard feelings here. I'm off to bed, it's 3 am here and I'm tired.

Nighty night!

A couple things then I'm done:

1. I didn't compare anyone to anyone. I asked a question.

2. They will never come to their sense. Thus is the tragic truth that in order to defeat them they will have to die.

3. Bush didn't know he was being misinformed (lied to in your world), but it's still his fault he went to war based on that information?? If I tell you that water polo is fun and exciting and do everything I can to make you think the same, then you try it yourself and it isn't, is that your fault???

4. No, of course I don't have proof (I thought for a second there you were going to tell me to research my info). Al-Queda = terrorists, Saddam = terrorist...connection. A direct link, no...but again, tell me with a straight face that terrorists aren't in touch and in league with other terrorists.

5. Who said anyhthing about hard times in life?

6. This discussion can stay as cool and calm as it wants. You obviously have never had one with me or you would know that this is how I discuss.

7. Of course no hard feelings. Why would you even bother to say that?

[quote=evangelion] 2. They will never come to their sense. Thus is the tragic truth that in order to defeat them they will have to die. [/quote]

In that case a lot of people will have to be killed, but hey, the world is getting overpopulated, anyway. :wink: Killing people is only a short-term solution, it doesn't solve anything in the long-term. Like Yao said it's the desease that must be cured, not the symptoms.

[quote=evangelion] 3. Bush didn't know he was being misinformed (lied to in your world), but it's still his fault he went to war based on that information?? If I tell you that water polo is fun and exciting and do everything I can to make you think the same, then you try it yourself and it isn't, is that your fault??? [/quote]

If you do it to me, it's not that bad, but if you do that to most of the world (which in fact divided it), things get an entirely new dimension. He should take some of the responsibility (not all, but at least some).

[quote=evangelion] 4. No, of course I don't have proof (I thought for a second there you were going to tell me to research my info). Al-Queda = terrorists, Saddam = terrorist...connection. A direct link, no...but again, tell me with a straight face that terrorists aren't in touch and in league with other terrorists. [/quote]

Personally, IMO Sadaam was not a terrorist. He was a (cruel) dictator, responsible for many deaths (mostly his "own" people's deaths). It's true he supported Palestinian terrorists (IMO that's what most Arab countries do), but I think that the Palestinian terrorism would be easier solved by solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, than by invading Iraq, don't you. However, the fact that bothers me most is, that the war on terror, is not only a war on terrorism. OK, the attack on Afganistan was justified (I disapproved it, because I'm anti-war, true), but then came the attack on Iraq, which had COMPLETELY NOTHING to do with terrorism (except for the forementioned support of Palestinian terrorists). That's the point when I started having doubts about Bush's motives. The invasion on Iraq changed a country without terrorism (although with a very bad leader) into a hotbed of terrorism... It actually increased the number of terrorists. :? Now, that is just strange. Don't you think so? If I get back to the war on terror, if I might still understand how Iran fits into the war on terror, since it has quite openly supported terrorism, the logic fails again completely when we get to North Korea. How many North Korean terrorists have you heard of? Pesonally, none. It's true, North Koreans are trying to get the nukes, but (again this is only my opinion) I believe no country is that stupid to invade the US, since that would mean it's own inevitable and permanent destruction.

[quote=evangelion] 5. Who said anyhthing about hard times in life? [/quote]

I believe that Yao meant to say it's not only the Americans who feel threatened by terrorisms and muslims. As you may know the Netherlands are facing quite a crisis at the moment.

[quote=evangelion] 6. This discussion can stay as cool and calm as it wants. You obviously have never had one with me or you would know that this is how I discuss. [/quote]

I know your style evangelion (the fiery preacher :wink: ), but couldn't we sometimes lead a discussion in a bit more civilised way. All liberals were not enlightened by M&M's documentaries and don't believe everything they are fed by the "liberal" media. SOME of us really try to get as much information as they can from "left and right" sources and just like you, try to decide which to believe. We try to respect our political "opponents", which is kind of hard with all the name calling and insulting from the other side. :wink:

[quote=evangelion] 7. Of course no hard feelings. Why would you even bother to say that?[/quote]

:D

I won't bother to say that again Evangelion, I'll keep in mind your style of discussion (the Fiery Preacher, I should've known that when I saw your name). We have indeed not had many encounters before on this board, but that'll probably change from now on :wink: .

Brakada has prett much said it all I think, I don't think I could say it any better. And yes, the Netherlands are currently rethinking their current status and the way it will have to deal with extremism from now on. I bet there is an increasing number people here supporting the war in Iraq now, thnks to mister Mohammed B.

To add insult to injury, we had a converted Muslim (Christian > Muslim) on a show last week, who expressed his wish that one of our more right-winged parliamentarians, Geert Wilders (who has this horrific blonde hair dye btw), would die within the next two years. He did not wan that to happen by violence or murder, but preferrably in a natural way like a disease or something alike.

This country is now wondering how it even got so far that people can vent opinions like that on national tv, whilst our government keeps urging all Christian Dutch citizens to remain calm. The general consensus here is that out government has given extrememists and foreign elements too much freedom, and that we should return back to a more nationalistic policy. I partially support this, but not totally. I want people from outside to abide by our constitution if they want to live here. We have all agreed on the way in which we'd like to live in this country, which is recorded in the constitution, and if people do not agree with that, they should not stay here.

I do not, however, agree with just bluntly kicking all Muslims and other foreigners out. I am not xenophobic, and I think my study proves that. But whereas I do respect other cultures, I do expect them to respect mine in return. When that is not the case, the line is crossed and in that case I empower my government to return those people to their own country.

I have always liked the idea of a multi-cultural society, all colors and beliefs living side by side. Whereas most of my relatives and acqaintances are afraid when they saw Surinams or people from the Netherlands Antilles, I have many friends or acqaintances among them. Yes, I get greeted by 'criminals' on the street :Naughty:

But it seems the government has confused hospitality with tolerating elements that are anti-social and anti-constitutional around here, and now they're in deep shit trying to fix it...

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[quote=evangelion]^^ You're right on a couple different levels.

I always wonder what all these people who say they are so against war would do if some terrorist fuck showed up on their doorstep and slaughted their entire family. I guran-fucking-tee they would say one of two things:

1. How could someone let this happen.

2. Where is the nearest gun.

[/quote]

you forgot one more, Where's my lawyer?

[quote]"asdf and runningman...you guys are such groupies

herded fools"[/quote]

lol.

i am really not sure who the fool is ... :lol: