OK, so we now know that Obama has [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/22/guantanamo-obamas-executi_n_160054.html"]signed an executive order[/URL] to begin the process of shutting down GITMO.

While watching both CNN and MSNBC this morning, there was a lot of discussion about the ramifications of just letting these people go. Here's the $64,000 question, though -- who said anything about just releasing them? The order actually specifically reads:

QUOTE Some individuals currently detained at Guantánamo may have committed offenses for which they should be prosecuted. It is in the interests of the United States to review whether and how any such individuals can and should be prosecuted.[/QUOTE]

GITMO has been a black eye for the US for a while now, and shutting it down is an obvious way of putting that era behind us. It seems to me that the media is focused on the wrong question, though, because I can't think of anyone that thinks that we ought to just open the doors and let everyone out. These people were detained for a reason, and if we have a basis for charging them with something, let's charge them and prosecute them. That should be obvious. I totally fail to understand the controversy here.

Re: Closing Down GITMO

I dont' get it either. You can conquer Iraq in a couple months but you can't close an illegal jail for a year?? Sounds retarded to me

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[QUOTE=runningman;701751]I dont' get it either. You can conquer Iraq in a couple months but you can't close an illegal jail for a year?? Sounds retarded to me[/QUOTE]

Apples to oranges. Or simply it's not the same thing.

As for closing Gitmo down, it seems silly to me and more of a symbolic thing. If anyone is guilty of terrorism in Gitmo, they should be held there or somewhere. Doesn't matter to me where.

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Guys, I'm no lawyer, but I see quite a legal shitstorm with this. It's not as simple as getting this hundreds of guys on a plane, dropping them off at the county jail, and letting them have their day in court. I've read that it's quite difficult to prosecute these people because, for most of them, there is a very weak body of evidence admissible under existing criminal standards. Most of these guys left are either the worst ones or the ones with the most complicated cases to prove. So under what conventions do you try them (standard US criminal, military tribunals), and how do you make the case so that it sticks? Once you put them into play in the system you can't just stop things from playing out - the whole world is watching, and we can't extend the right to a trial to some and then stop if half way with others [I]after[/I] we've already publicly admitted that Guantanamo was illegal. And you can't just shoot them in the head, because the whole world is watching. And you really don't want to end up having to let these guys go so that they can move freely throughout the continental United States.

And furthermore, it seems that these guys are pariahs that no one wants to touch. Their own countries generally refuse to take them back, so you can't just take them there. And no one here in the US wants them; already all the states are running as fast as they can to avoid having to deal with any of them.

This is why these guys were in Guantanamo in the first place; Bush didn't want to weather this shitstorm with his unpopular wars going on. Besides, it was never really his primary goal to prosecute these prisoners; he just wanted to keep them off the battlefield and torture them for valuable information to aid against future terrorist attacks.

And what you [I]really[/I] don't want happening is this: [URL]http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jUF4ASartwWO3JqCBOiisqMJDiNA[/URL]

Re: Closing Down GITMO

[quote=superdave;701881]Apples to oranges. Or simply it's not the same thing.

As for closing Gitmo down, it seems silly to me and more of a symbolic thing. If anyone is guilty of terrorism in Gitmo, they should be held there or somewhere. Doesn't matter to me where.[/quote]

But therein lies the problem. Enemy Combatant is a vague definition and you are offered no tribunal. Basically, at any time they wanted to snatch anybody, they could, and they could be held without a trial.

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[quote=superdave;701881]Apples to oranges. Or simply it's not the same thing.

As for closing Gitmo down, it seems silly to me and more of a symbolic thing. If anyone is guilty of terrorism in Gitmo, they should be held there or somewhere. Doesn't matter to me where.[/quote]

I didn't realise many of these people had been found guilty of terrorism. If you cant prove it I say let them go and compensate them for what they had to go through while they where there.

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^^^^ Ahh, a voice of reason. :D

They should be subject to normal law. If there is a very week body of evidence , perhaps they are not guilty .

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[quote=DIDI;701941]^^^^ Ahh, a voice of reason. :D

They should be subject to normal law. If there is a very week body of evidence , perhaps they are not guilty .[/quote] Or perhaps they are but the evidence is not there because of the haphazard way in which the previous administration captured these people around the world and processed their cases. And now it is years later and too late to get all of the evidence they should have gotten then.

But I agree that they will probably have to let many of them go free. So now we might well let go the guys who will drop the next skyscrapers in some city in my country and kill another couple thousand people - or maybe worse. And the concern is real...

[quote]A former Saudi detainee at the US "war on terror" prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba has been been elevated to the senior ranks of Al-Qaeda in Yemen, a US counter-terrorism official said Friday.

A video circulating on jihadist websites showed Said Ali al-Shihri pledging allegiance as deputy to the commander of Al-Qaeda in Yemen, Abu Baseer al-Wahayshi, according to the SITE Intelligence Group Monitoring Service.[/quote]

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[quote=Miroslav;702019] But I agree that they will probably have to let many of them go free. So now we might well let go the guys who will drop the next skyscrapers in some city in my country and kill another couple thousand people - or maybe worse. And the concern is real...[/quote]

Unsurprisingly enough we didn't get the evidence on the last 3 skyscrapers either. The Bush administration could of supplied us with plenty of things on 9/11 but they didn't. i wonder why

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kill them all, close the prison, and let's move on.

:wtf:

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I love it when everyone acts like this is a huge "paper mess." and very easy questions like "what do we do with them?'' You let them go or put them in prisons around the globe. It is very simple but propaganda will have you believe that it is extremely complex.

Canada is already willing to take back its suspected terrorists.

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nm...not worth it.

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yep you said..

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[quote=Miroslav;702019]Or perhaps they are but the evidence is not there because of the haphazard way in which the previous administration captured these people around the world and processed their cases. And now it is years later and too late to get all of the evidence they should have gotten then.

But I agree that they will probably have to let many of them go free. So now we might well let go the guys who will drop the next skyscrapers in some city in my country and kill another couple thousand people - or maybe worse. And the concern is real...[/quote]

I'm actually more convinced that GBay was probably also used to train these individuals. i mean, what better place? It's pretty much a max prison with intelligence officers dispersed here and there. Years later, we'll probably get intel that says this guy too was trained by the CIA.

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[quote=Localizer;702084]I'm actually more convinced that GBay was probably also used to train these individuals. i mean, what better place? It's pretty much a max prison with intelligence officers dispersed here and there. Years later, we'll probably get intel that says this guy too was trained by the CIA.[/quote] I'm not following... Why would US forces capture people who are supposedly anti-American terrorists in order to [I]train[/I] them? For what? To kill us all better?

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[QUOTE=Miroslav;702019]Or perhaps they are but the evidence is not there because of the haphazard way in which the previous administration captured these people around the world and processed their cases. And now it is years later and too late to get all of the evidence they should have gotten then.

But I agree that they will probably have to let many of them go free. So now we might well let go the guys who will drop the next skyscrapers in some city in my country and kill another couple thousand people - or maybe worse. And the concern is real...[/QUOTE] By processed their cases do you mean the torture ?? Thank god that is being stopped. That has done so much harm to America .

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[quote=DIDI;702156]By processed their cases do you mean the torture ?? Thank god that is being stopped. That has done so much harm to America .[/quote] no, I'm not talking at all about torture - although I agree that the US should not torture. I'm talking about the systematic gathering and documenting of evidence that builds a case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt these captured individuals' guilt in terrorist activities.

That is the processing that should have been done years ago and wasn't. And as a result, people who probably are terrorists and pose a real danger to the US will be let go so that they can resume their activities.

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Seems to me if there was any evidence the US would of prosecuted them.

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Pity Jack Bauer is fictional .. he'd have had the truth out of them in no time.

G-bay has always been a symbol of the fight on terrror - but a poor one that just became a symbol of violating human rights.

That said, you still shouldn't have the right to be a terrorist and kill innocent people indescriminantly (even though they say that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter). So there still need to be steps in place to take the terrroists out of the population.

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The problem is most of these people where rounded up as a result of people making accusations in order to receive financial rewards from the American Government. Which obviously creates a problem straight away. You just have to look at the case with Dilawar that was featured in Taxi To The Dark Side.

I'm more scared of Geese than I am of Terrorists

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[quote=simonr;702296]Pity Jack Bauer is fictional .. he'd have had the truth out of them in no time. [/quote]

:lol: was thinking the same thing.

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[quote=chunky;702319] The problem is most of these people where rounded up as a result of people making accusations in order to receive financial rewards from the American Government. Which obviously creates a problem straight away. You just have to look at the case with Dilawar that was featured in Taxi To The Dark Side.

I'm more scared of Geese than I am of Terrorists[/quote]

people made accusations but the accusations had to carry some merit for the american government to reward them... i don't think that is really the problem.

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[quote=Garrick;702650]people made accusations but the accusations had to carry some merit for the american government to reward them... i don't think that is really the problem.[/quote]

The accusations carried no merit in Dilawar's case. He ended up losing his life after weeks of torture. Turned out it was his accuser who was actually guilty of what Dilawar had been accused of.

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touche. that is a good point. but how many cases like that are there? i hope not many!

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I think a lot more than you think.

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you may be right. it is sad that trust is such a lost virtue in today's world.

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They are closing down Gitmo because they have FEMA camps set up all over the country. There are 100 Gitmo's setup all over the USA waiting to be filled

we spoke about this years ago

[URL]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40997&highlight=Fema+camps[/URL]

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^^ the plan never was to just let those guys walk out free when they close down Quantanamo. The main difference is that they should now end up being processed and tried as regular criminal suspects, whether in civilian or military court.

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[quote=Miroslav;702086]I'm not following... Why would US forces capture people who are supposedly anti-American terrorists in order to [I]train[/I] them? For what? To kill us all better?[/quote]

Well, you could train them to be inside agents or you could actually train them in better, more crude types of warfare. You could also essentially give them internal information. Basically you could set up a network that is homemade. But it's all conspiracy theorist sounding.

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[quote=Localizer;704835]Well, you could train them to be inside agents or you could actually train them in better, more crude types of warfare. You could also essentially give them internal information. Basically you could set up a network that is homemade. But it's all conspiracy theorist sounding.[/quote] I dunno, dude...I just don't see the logic in why they would do that. Seems to me that if you capture a bunch of people who supposedly hate you and have been trying to kill you, the last thing you want to do is give them a bunch of sensitive information and train them to be better killers.

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[quote=Miroslav;704935]I dunno, dude...I just don't see the logic in why they would do that. Seems to me that if you capture a bunch of people who supposedly hate you and have been trying to kill you, the last thing you want to do is give them a bunch of sensitive information and train them to be better killers.[/quote]

Certainly it lacks some consistency but it's just one of many theories I have floating around about those kinds of places.

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..