[url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081211/ts_nm/us_usa_israel_iran[/url]

might as well have said, "until Iran detonates a nuclear weapon in Tel Aviv, we won't respond".

what a fucking, fucking, fucking, fucking, jackass. goddammit i'm pissed.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

This is honestly not because I'm an Obama fan, but I actually don't read it that way. I view it as him almost bringing the concept of MAD into the discussion for Iran -- "attack with nukes if you dare, but we'll point our arsenal at you if you do." There's nothing in here that I see that would suggest that the only event that would cause us to respond in Israel's defense is if they were under nuclear attack.

This also allows Israel to perpetuate this absurd little fiction that they might not have nukes themselves, even though everyone knows that they probably do. If we step up and say we've got their back from a nuclear standpoint, they don't have to further tip their hand in the interest of deterrence.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I guess you could read it as bringing up the concept of MAD, yet that does not preclude us from doing a damn thing about it [I]w/o our nuclear weapons[/I].

I mean, srsly, it's not like there is an incentive for martydom in that country. I mean, rly, not only would the destruction of isreal in a nuclear holocaust solve LOTS of religious conflict against the jews, but you know, it also rallys the muslim world against the united states for retaliation, [I]and[/I] solidifies a megalomaniac like Ahmedinejad into perpetual islamic sainthood.

They win [I]any which way yo slice the bread[/I].

And who loses? Well, the global jewish population will be reduced to about 2 million, which is, for what its worth, making them an endangered species if you will. We lose a strong ally, secondly. And, we'd [I]actually have to use nuclear weapons, a la 'in kind'[/I], which, if you ask me, Obama doesn't have the [I]balls[/I] to do.

ah, ok. it's all about perpetuating an 'absurd fiction'. I'm not sure which book your reading, but it's pretty open that they do have them.

And let's clarify one other geo-strategic point: if Israel goes this alone, and, they do nuke the uranium plants, what stops Pakistan from responding 'in kind'? Again, checkmate against a people under a real threat, Americans and Israelis alike.

If you want MADness, do what Barack is suggesting.

Otherwise, a few LGB's should sort this out.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I have absolutely no idea what position you're even advocating anymore. My impression was that you took this as setting a policy that we wouldn't do shit to protect Israel unless and until Iran nuked them, and my reading of the article you cited is that it says nothing of the sort. I'm certainly not advocating the use of nuclear weapons against anyone.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

let me clarify: [I]deterrence does not work against people who have nothing to lose and everything to gain by weaponized martyrdom.

thus, this policy won't deter Iran from using Nukes. To the contrary, it will produce the exact opposite results; the end of a democratic ally, the start of the end of a religion, [/I]and, with [I]any[/I] response, nuclear or otherwise, there will be a greater threat to the United States and our allies by islamic fundamentalists for such a retaliation, of which, it appears, will involve the use of nuclear weapons (which I personally doubt BHO has the balls to use if it ever came to that....). And, if we do not back Israel on this, [I]nothing prevents other fundamentalist groups and nations, like Pakistan, from directly assaulting Israel, potentially with nuclear weapons.

[/I]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

so what are you saying Mariner. Should he sound like Bush and say that he won't let Iran get a nuclear bomb?? Israel has its own nukes.. they can take care of themselves. The US has to keep its nose out of other peoples business sometimes.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

someone needs to bitchslap amen jihad next time he comes to the UN

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

dumbass move on Barack if he does it. Will only widen the rift and will hurt our image probably even more.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=Localizer;686905]dumbass move on Barack if he does it. Will only widen the rift and will hurt our image probably even more.[/quote]

good thing sentiments can be healed over time. but so far as I know, dead people stay dead.

Look, it doesn't matter whether you're pro-israel, anti-israel, pro-iran, anti-iran, or any mixture in between. Allowing Iran to acquire nuclear weaponry, on its own, will result in massive losses of innocent lives on both sides of the equation. A simple bombardment of thier nuclear facilities will change this.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=88Mariner;686924]good thing sentiments can be healed over time. but so far as I know, dead people stay dead.

Look, it doesn't matter whether you're pro-israel, anti-israel, pro-iran, anti-iran, or any mixture in between. Allowing Iran to acquire nuclear weaponry, on its own, will result in massive losses of innocent lives on both sides of the equation. A simple bombardment of thier nuclear facilities will change this.[/quote]

Many parts of Iran aren't exactly sharing fundamentalist ideas. What you're saying here is a little presumptuous. What would be the point in decimating a land holy to several religions, one of which being Islam? If the mantra for Iran is that they have nothing to lose, why isn't the revolutionary guard attacking Israel? Is it not antithetical for a nuke to act as the martyr as opposed to the followers of the fundamental aspect of Islam who want to be martyred by actually being involved in the killings?

As for pakistan, india will take care of them.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

What business does the US have in attacking Iran? Why does the US need to do the dirty work of another nations?

If Israel is so concerned about Iran's nuclear threat, than let her be the one who calls for war and drop the first bomb. Israel has hundreds of nuclear bombs and can defend herself if need be.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=Localizer;686982]Many parts of Iran aren't exactly sharing fundamentalist ideas. What you're saying here is a little presumptuous. What would be the point in decimating a land holy to several religions, one of which being Islam? If the mantra for Iran is that they have nothing to lose, why isn't the revolutionary guard attacking Israel? Is it not antithetical for a nuke to act as the martyr as opposed to the followers of the fundamental aspect of Islam who want to be martyred by actually being involved in the killings?

As for pakistan, india will take care of them.[/quote]

not that i advocate fucking anything up any more.. but

why do something in the open that you can do behind closed doors with money and other people. the UN troops have found countless of iranian sourced weapons in iraq and afghanistan over the last few years. they are fighting us as we speak, but instead of earing a uniform, they are letting other do it, and they are doing it quiertly.

not everyone is the US where they wear unfirms, and openly make themselves known. they do it right. sadly. they fight us in civies. so we cant tell, and they calim innocence. innocence with a household of minutions.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=thesightless;687012]not that i advocate fucking anything up any more.. but

why do something in the open that you can do behind closed doors with money and other people. the UN troops have found countless of iranian sourced weapons in iraq and afghanistan over the last few years. they are fighting us as we speak, but instead of earing a uniform, they are letting other do it, and they are doing it quiertly.

not everyone is the US where they wear unfirms, and openly make themselves known. they do it right. sadly. they fight us in civies. so we cant tell, and they calim innocence. innocence with a household of minutions.[/quote]

From what I recall, that was all conjecture and allegations. Meanwhile, what wasn't conjecture or allegations was the missing cache of weapons from the US military not once, but twice and along the lines of a few millions dollars worth.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I'm still not seeing the part in this article or anywhere else where anyone says that we're just going to allow Iran to have nukes and then deal with it after the fact. The US and probably all countries have policies in place for dealing with unfriendly nations/forces that are both reactive and proactive, and the pronouncement of one does not imply the abandonment of the other.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=toasty;687145]I'm still not seeing the part in this article or anywhere else where anyone says that we're just going to allow Iran to have nukes and then deal with it after the fact. The US and probably all countries have policies in place for dealing with unfriendly nations/forces that are both reactive and proactive, and the pronouncement of one does not imply the abandonment of the other.[/quote]

no, the article says, if you decimate israel, we will decimate you. that means, by implication, that if you get a bomb, and use it, we will use our arsenal against you. sure, i guess it doesn't explicitly say it, but then, does it necessarily need to be explicitly said?

If we were going to do [I]anything[/I] about their facilities, it would have already happened. This doesn't need to be a war with iran. it takes a few well placed lgb's on that facility, and it's largely resolved. evein if Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon, but simply making enough nuclear material to be used in dirty bombs....is that not enough to say, "let's sort this out right quick"?

imagine, for a moment, that iran puts a nuclear bomb in downtown baghdad. let the iraqis sort this one out. is the standard by which we cast one of our own out by himself based on whether he has a few nuclear weapons?

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[QUOTE=88Mariner;687151]no, the article says, if you decimate israel, we will decimate you. that means, by implication, that if you get a bomb, and use it, we will use our arsenal against you. sure, i guess it doesn't explicitly say it, but then, does it necessarily need to be explicitly said?

If we were going to do [I]anything[/I] about their facilities, it would have already happened. This doesn't need to be a war with iran. it takes a few well placed lgb's on that facility, and it's largely resolved. evein if Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon, but simply making enough nuclear material to be used in dirty bombs....is that not enough to say, "let's sort this out right quick"?

imagine, for a moment, that iran puts a nuclear bomb in downtown baghdad. let the iraqis sort this one out. is the standard by which we cast one of our own out by himself based on whether he has a few nuclear weapons?[/QUOTE]

You should really get back to studying for finals, because you obviously can't multitask and still think clearly. :lol:

I'm sorry, but "We'll retaliate [I]if [/I]you use nukes against Israel" =/= "Feel free to continue to work towards a nuclear weapon." What we do to prevent Iran from getting nukes and what we do in the event that, despite our best efforts, they get them anyway, are two separate policies.

If you think that Obama hasn't done enough to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, then start a thread and talk about that (although you may want to wait until he actually has the authority to do [I]something [/I]about it). As it stands, though, you're connecting two things that are really separate.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=toasty;687163]You should really get back to studying for finals, because you obviously can't multitask and still think clearly. :lol:

I'm sorry, but "We'll retaliate [I]if [/I]you use nukes against Israel" =/= "Feel free to continue to work towards a nuclear weapon." What we do to prevent Iran from getting nukes and what we do in the event that, despite our best efforts, they get them anyway, are two separate policies.

If you think that Obama hasn't done enough to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, then start a thread and talk about that (although you may want to wait until he actually has the authority to do [I]something [/I]about it). As it stands, though, you're connecting two things that are really separate.[/quote]

dude how bad does your jaw hurt, seriously?

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[QUOTE=shosh;687185]dude how bad does your jaw hurt, seriously?[/QUOTE]

I'm not even arguing on the substance because I frankly can't make heads or tails of what 88's point is ultimately supposed to be. I'm just saying that the proactive and reactive policies are not the same thing. It's a false syllogism.

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

except that our very actions, or rather, inactions, is a very hands-off approach...ergo...continuing to allow Iran to build up thier program. What you're suggesting is that right now, we're doing everything possible to prevent Iran from realizing a nuclear weapons program. But there is [I]scant[/I] evidence of this. [I]Therefore[/I], they are feeling free to continue what they're doing because....[I]get this[/I]....nobody is doing anything about it right now!

[QUOTE] However, there's another scary implication of this disastrous "umbrella" policy that outstrips all the others in the scale of its absurdity. It takes only a few seconds to think this one through. Obama's policy assumes first that Iran will get nuclear arms and second that there is a real likelihood of that country using nukes against Israel. In such a situation, the US would respond with another nuclear strike. This kind of scenario has a name: nuclear war. An Iranian government that has already crossed the boundaries of geopolitical sanity and launched a nuclear strike against a country with nuclear capability (and the world's pound-for-pound strongest airforce) is not likely to stop the nukes on account of an American strike. Actually, it's likely to ramp up. The Iranians are not idiots - they will prepare for an American strike on Iranian soil by providing for their own second strike capability and, importantly, by positioning a large number of terror cells to strike at the US domestically and at US assets around the world. The downward spiral of this policy is dizzying. If the "umbrella" is a real consideration on the part of the Obama administration then Israel actually should feel reassured: it should confidently understand that not just its own security but regional (and possibly global) security rests with its taking action to prevent Iran from going nuclear. Even if it's not a serious policy consideration of Obama, if the policy was misstated or misinterpreted, Israel - just as much of those within Iran's strike radius, as well as the rest of the globalized world - should be alarmed at the extent to which absurdism now characterizes the discussion on a near-nuclear Iran. The critical question, it now seems, is no longer about how far the Iranians are willing to go. It's about how low the Americans are willing to sink. [/QUOTE] [URL]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ashley-rindsberg/obamas-nuclear-downpour_b_150250.html[/URL]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[quote=toasty;687191]I'm not even arguing on the substance because I frankly can't make heads or tails of what 88's point is ultimately supposed to be. I'm just saying that the proactive and reactive policies are not the same thing. It's a false syllogism.[/quote]

do you ever see yourself disagreeing with obama on anything? or are you just going to be his puppet and expect everything he says. he does have a great solution to the nukes in iran: lets sit around with ahmansjkhdsjfhadjhf, have a circle jerk, and see who eats the cookie first. oh and if somehow down the road they wipe out israel, we'll retaliate for sure...

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

apparently, Iran says to Obama, 'Stfu and let's make a deal". Did Blago get hired by ahmedinejad?

[B][QUOTE] [B]Iran has told US President-elect Barack Obama to abandon the "failed" US carrot-and-stick approach to solving the atomic row with Tehran.[/B] Mr Obama on Sunday vowed "tough but direct diplomacy", offering Iran economic incentives to end its nuclear programme or face tougher sanctions. But Iran's foreign ministry spokesman Hassan Qashqavi said the policy was "unacceptable". He urged Mr Obama to adopt an "interactive policy" instead. "The carrot and stick approach has proven to be useless. It is an unacceptable and virtually failed policy," Mr Qashqavi said. "This needs to change and transform into an interactive policy". The UN Security Council has repeatedly demanded that Iran freeze its uranium enrichment work, which the US says is part of Iran's drive to develop an atomic weapon, a claim denied by Tehran.

[/QUOTE][URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7771821.stm[/URL][/B]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[QUOTE=shosh;687208]do you ever see yourself disagreeing with obama on anything? or are you just going to be his puppet and expect everything he says. he does have a great solution to the nukes in iran: lets sit around with ahmansjkhdsjfhadjhf, have a circle jerk, and see who eats the cookie first. oh and if somehow down the road they wipe out israel, we'll retaliate for sure...[/QUOTE]

First off, I haven't taken any sort of position on the correctness of Obama's position in this thread or otherwise -- just pointing out that the article 88 cited doesn't appear to stand for the policy he's apparently upset about.

As for whether I disagree with Obama on anything, of course I have, do, and will. That's part of the deal. For example, he's more gung ho about this auto bailout than I would like, and I think his immigration policy is way too lenient to [I]illegal[/I] immigrants. I just don't post about it when I do disagree because, well, who the fuck cares that Obama did something that I don't like and they haven't been things that tear at the very fabric of America. If he ever does something that I view as so wrong as to be a big deal, I'll probably post about it.