right? wrong? barbaric? disgusting? ritual?

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7708169.stm[/url]

i'm not keen on it myself. :shock:

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we should be tolerant of other faiths. right?

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yep that doesn't mean i have to agree with them tho does it.

did you read that story ? because it does sound quite dodgy.

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chloe, this is actually quite common and one of the less abrbaric tinsg done.

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did you read the story?

do you think they are lying about her age and do you think they should be tried if so because if she was 13 then they broke islamic law.

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:) eh

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[QUOTE=88Mariner;672401]we should be tolerant of other faiths. right?[/QUOTE] A huge NO!!! No matter what faith , this is wrong and a crime against humanity.:evil: And it would still be wrong no matter which story is the true story. !! FFS they buried her twice and kept stoning her. How much more barbaric could you get.

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[QUOTE=DIDI;672471]A huge NO!!! No matter what faith , this is wrong and a crime against humanity.:evil: And it would still be wrong no matter which story is the true story. !! FFS they buried her twice and kept stoning her. How much more barbaric could you get.[/QUOTE]

+1

Was just about to type the same thing and read your response. No faith or religion tells you to kill someone with that hatred, least of all someone of such a young age.

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absolute animals

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[quote=Fez Up;672479]+1

Was just about to type the same thing and read your response. No faith or religion tells you to kill someone with that hatred, least of all someone of such a young age.[/quote]

clearly one faith does. in fact, this is not an isolated event this year. it's likely to have happened several dozen times across the globe, if memory from the last few years serves me still.

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Chloe

To be religiously murdered because you are a victim of a crime is a disgusting notion - I wonder whether your new President Elect will actually take action against the countries of the Middle East and Africa who treat women like this?

And how long do you give him before you realise that you've been duped into drinking the Kool-Aid? 100 days? Six months? A year? A term of office? Two terms?

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[quote=davetlv;672648]Chloe

To be religiously murdered because you are a victim of a crime is a disgusting notion - I wonder whether your new President Elect will actually take action against the countries of the Middle East and Africa who treat women like this?

And how long do you give him before you realise that you've been duped into drinking the Kool-Aid? 100 days? Six months? A year? A term of office? Two terms?[/quote]

this

and also you're for killing babies but against this? strong logic there...

oh wait.

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i don't see why obama wouldn't want to try to change things.

did you read the story shosh? she was 13. it may have been an illegal killing. is that right? no its not. so i thought i'd try to have a logical conversation with people here, but logic isn't possible with people who don't read.

yes i murder babies daily. i love killing babies so much i have a baby killing farm where i horde them up and run them over with trucks. fuck off with your bullshit you keep putting in my mouth.

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^ do you sell tickets? i'd like to buy a season pass ;)

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[quote=davetlv;672648]Chloe

To be religiously murdered because you are a victim of a crime is a disgusting notion - I wonder whether your new President Elect will actually take action against the countries of the Middle East and Africa who treat women like this?

And how long do you give him before you realise that you've been duped into drinking the Kool-Aid? 100 days? Six months? A year? A term of office? Two terms?[/quote]

I'm sorry, where in the president's job description does this fit? Where does it say he should police every human injustice throughout the world?? You have got to be kidding me with this bullshit...

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[quote=chloe harris;672804]i don't see why obama wouldn't want to try to change things.

did you read the story shosh? she was 13. it may have been an illegal killing. is that right? no its not. so i thought i'd try to have a logical conversation with people here, but logic isn't possible with people who don't read.

yes i murder babies daily. i love killing babies so much i have a baby killing farm where i horde them up and run them over with trucks. fuck off with your bullshit you keep putting in my mouth.[/quote]

i didnt say you murder babies. i didnt say it was right what happened to her. i think it is wrong.

is it less wrong to kill a baby just because she was 13?

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This sort of crap is unfortunately nothing new. It's been happening for years now in Muslim fundamentalist-driven cultures. And yes, as the general concensus here has said, it is wrong - regardless of nation, culture, or creed, it is wrong. Unfortunately, this is not something President Obama or anyone else can fix in the short term. You can't just go into a nation and force them to stop behaving the way they are (even if it's wrong) and to look at things the way you do. We just tried this for the past 5 years in Iraq, and it has not worked.

Shosh's point about abortion with respect to this is really not illogical, in my opinion - sorry, Chloe. I'm not saying that abortion should be banned, but he raises a good point to consider.

Does the difference in the timing of the "aborting" activity - i.e., whether it is done before or after the fetus exits the female uterus - categorically change the nature of the action?

I'm not saying I have the perfect answer. But it's worth considering, at least.

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[quote=day_for_night;672808]I'm sorry, where in the president's job description does this fit? Where does it say he should police every human injustice throughout the world?? You have got to be kidding me with this bullshit...[/quote]

Don't be sorry (not even sarcastically), you're right on target. It is the president's responsibility NOT to go crusading around the world dictating codes of conduct or overthrowing the governments of other sovereign nations. If he were to do so, it would make a mockery of the nation's ideological foundation (which iirc is why Bush's approval rating plumeted when ppl started to see through his phony WMD story and axis of evil rhetoric).

Do I think stoning is barbaric? of course! But the president can go no further than covertly financing and training resistance movements, when the people decide to organize themselves and rise up against this type of leadership. Until they do that, it would be patently absurd to suggest the US should just bust in there, guns blazing and say "Live this way because our idea of human rights is the pinnacle of righteousness."

off topic ps - one could argue from a pro-choice standpoint that a parent is doing a greater disservice to themselves, their child, and society at large by bringing a kid into the world that they are unprepared for or incapable of raising properly. What can the future possibly hold for such a child? An abortion is not a happy choice to make, but it is often the right one. The next one to come along for that couple will be created from the exact same pool of hereditary information, have a much better life and become a more constructive force in the world if the parents just wait until they can more effectively regulate the conditions of its upbringing. Does this make ANY sense, or did I completely miss what u guys were talking about? (in which case, I wud also liek 2 tickets plz kthx).

pps - and YES waiting 13 yrs to make this decision is much, much worse.

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[quote=WaveSculptor;672854] off topic ps - one could argue from a pro-choice standpoint that a parent is doing a greater disservice to themselves, their child, and society at large by bringing a kid into the world that they are unprepared for or incapable of raising properly. What can the future possibly hold for such a child? An abortion is not a happy choice to make, but it is often the right one. The next one to come along for that couple will be created from the exact same pool of hereditary information, have a much better life and become a more constructive force in the world if the parents just wait until they can more effectively regulate the conditions of its upbringing. Does this make ANY sense, or did I completely miss what u guys were talking about? (in which case, I wud also liek 2 tickets plz kthx).

pps - and YES waiting 13 yrs to make this decision is much, much worse.[/quote]

some people have heard of a process called adoption...

jus sayin

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[QUOTE=WaveSculptor;672854]Don't be sorry (not even sarcastically), you're right on target. It is the president's responsibility NOT to go crusading around the world dictating codes of conduct or overthrowing the governments of other sovereign nations. If he were to do so, it would make a mockery of the nation's ideological foundation (which iirc is why Bush's approval rating plumeted when ppl started to see through his phony WMD story and axis of evil rhetoric).

Do I think stoning is barbaric? of course! But the president can go no further than covertly financing and training resistance movements, when the people decide to organize themselves and rise up against this type of leadership. Until they do that, it would be patently absurd to suggest the US should just bust in there, guns blazing and say "Live this way because our idea of human rights is the pinnacle of righteousness."

off topic ps - one could argue from a pro-choice standpoint that a parent is doing a greater disservice to themselves, their child, and society at large by bringing a kid into the world that they are unprepared for or incapable of raising properly. What can the future possibly hold for such a child? An abortion is not a happy choice to make, but it is often the right one. The next one to come along for that couple will be created from the exact same pool of hereditary information, have a much better life and become a more constructive force in the world if the parents just wait until they can more effectively regulate the conditions of its upbringing. Does this make ANY sense, or did I completely miss what u guys were talking about? (in which case, I wud also liek 2 tickets plz kthx).

pps - and YES waiting 13 yrs to make this decision is much, much worse.[/QUOTE]

thanks for saying what I was about to.

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[IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y224/M4cDr3w/Dylanconfuse.gif[/IMG]

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[quote=davetlv;672648]I wonder whether your new President Elect will actually take action against the countries of the Middle East and Africa who treat women like this? [/quote]

:roll:

What do you suggest he does and why is it Obama that must take the action?

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What do you suggest he does and why is it Obama that must take the action?[/quote]

The second part of your question is easier to answer. Why? Because he is about to become the most powerful man on this planet, and part of the hype that surrounded him, outside of the USA, is that here is a man who aims to raise America's standing around the world - to enable that to happen he needs to stand up to both religious regimes and political opponents and help bring about this change he has been harping on about.

Whether its stopping young children being murdered by religious fanatics because they are victims of rape, or challenging despot leaders who rather line their own pockets from international aid their countries get given for the poor and needy, or locking both the Palestinian and Israeli leadership in room until a just and fair settlement is reached. . . . I could go on!

Since the US led the coalition into Iraq many around the world have been moving in a direction of pure hatred towards the US, whilst granted your elections were a national issue, the President elect in his 20 months of campaigning offered the world a different type of US International policy - stopping the murder of victims of rape is surely a good starting place in showing both a national and international audience that Obama does actually represent change, and that he isn't just another version of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Regan/Carter.

Get my point?

America on electing Obama, not as a black man but as a proponent for real change on our plant, has the ability to not just become a great well respected nation once again, but also has the ability to challenge some of this planets biggest issues - if your president elect has the balls to that is.

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[quote=davetlv;673015] Get my point?[/quote]

Actually, no. Not at all. We'll deal with key matters of international security but sorry, we're just not going to be the global babysitter/police force for the rest of the world.

Look, it's horrible that those people over there decide to treat their young women like that. But there are horrible things like this going on all over the [I]entire world[/I] every day, and we in America just can't stop them all. You can't "make" democracy for cave men; they have to civilize themselves and evolve into it on their own. Else, if you force them to act the way you want them to, then it's just old-fashioned colonialism. You, the rest of the world, want us to step in and fix your problems for you...but then if we actually do, you're furious at our American Imperialism, at the fact that we would dare "dictate" to you what to do. You hate us and burn flags and tell us to go home. F that. You can't have it both ways.

You may also not have noticed, but we have a hell of a mess here at home. Our economy is in a disasterous crisis that is getting worse every week. Healthcare spending is projected to rise insanely in the coming generation or two. And we have a record level of national debt. We just don't have the time and resources to go "save" the rest of the world anymore; we need to fix ourselves over here for once.

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[quote=Miroslav;673024]Actually, no. Not at all. You think we're obliged to go form the crack Anti-Rape Brigade and travel to every country and stop it from happening? Please.

Look, it's horrible that those people over there decide to treat their young women like that. But there are horrible things like this going on all over the [I]entire world[/I] every day, and we in America just can't stop them. You can't "make" democracy for cave men; they have to civilize themselves and evolve into it on their own. Else, if you force it upon them, then it's just colonialism. You, the rest of the world, want us to step in and fix your problems for you...but then if we actually do, then you're furious at our American Imperialism, at the fact that we would dare "dictate" to you what to do...and you burn flags and tell us to go home. You just can't have it both ways.

You may also not have noticed, but we have a hell of a mess here at home. Our economy is going down the drain fast. Healthcare spending is projected to rise insanely in the coming generation or two. And we have a record level of national debt. We just don't have the time and resources to go "save" the rest of the world anymore; we need to fix ourselves over here for once.[/quote]

I started a response very similar to this and deleted it because its pointless to try to get the idea accross that its all fine and dandy to look to the good ole US of A to fix everything wrong with the world and then piss all over it any time you seem appropriate.. there are atrocities like this all over the planet towards humans and animals and the environment.. unfortunately there always will be, thats not to justify it, but if the countries this shit happens in cant see thats its wrong, why is it this countries job to fix it?

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[quote=Miroslav;673024]We just don't have the time and resources to go "save" the rest of the world anymore; we need to fix ourselves over here for once.[/quote]

Then remove yourselves from the international stage - completely.

Remove all your troops and bases from every country they are in; stop all aid to every country; remove yourselves from the UN (actually that in itself aint a bad idea considering how shit that organisation is!), remove yourselves from nato. Close down your borders so even the illegals cant get in.

Become the closed isolationist country that China is. how does that work for you?

The US is the one remaining super power - the question is are you prepared to hand that throne over to China and the Russian bear?

The world is clearly at a precipice, we can either jump off and lose every single freedom that those of us in the west take for granted, or we can work towards ensuring that every single human being on this planet has the right to live their lives how they want and not how some political doctrine or quasi religious fanatic tell them to - A strong America internally will equal a strong America externally but that can only happen once all those lovely rights you and I have are open to every single human being.

Obama stood for change both at home and abroad - I certainly hope he can deliver and actually prove to the world that the change he has been talking about is global, otherwise where does he differ from all his predecessors?

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[quote=davetlv;673049]Then remove yourselves from the international stage - completely.

Remove all your troops and bases from every country they are in; stop all aid to every country; remove yourselves from the UN (actually that in itself aint a bad idea considering how shit that organisation is!), remove yourselves from nato. Close down your borders so even the illegals cant get in.

Become the closed isolationist country that China is. how does that work for you?

The US is the one remaining super power - the question is are you prepared to hand that throne over to China and the Russian bear?

The world is clearly at a precipice, we can either jump off and lose every single freedom that those of us in the west take for granted, or we can work towards ensuring that every single human being on this planet has the right to live their lives how they want and not how some political doctrine or quasi religious fanatic tell them to - A strong America internally will equal a strong America externally but that can only happen once all those lovely rights you and I have are open to every single human being.

Obama stood for change both at home and abroad - I certainly hope he can deliver and actually prove to the world that the change he has been talking about is global, otherwise where does he differ from all his predecessors?[/quote]

Ok, first off; up yours for asserting that the United States must sacrifice its soldiers, its taxpayers money, and its liberty to save the asses of people who refuse to rise up for themselves. No country has a right to what is being created here, nor does any other country have a right to the lives of our military personal, or the lives of our citizens in general.

Second, why close your borders there in Israel? WHat are you, isolationist? A country does not exist without borders and we've done a piss-poor job at closing ours up. We cannot even begin to take our national security seriously until we close the goddman doors and windows. Until then, fighting abroad should be out of the picture.

So, take your stupid neocon beliefs that you believe america must sacrifice itself to the world, and shove it. All we've done is act like daddy when little johnny gets hurt. time to grow up. Sink or swim. .

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[quote=88Mariner;673079]

So, take your stupid neocon beliefs that you believe america must sacrifice itself to the world, and shove it. All we've done is act like daddy when little johnny gets hurt. time to grow up. Sink or swim. .[/quote]

Wow, you really are stupid.

First of Mariner I'm not a neocon - never voted for anything remotely right wing in my life.

Second of all, where did i say, or have i said in any post I have posted here since 04, that the solution is Military?

I thought Obama talked about change? Did he not? Military solutions do not offer us any change from Bush et al, but whether you like it or not, your new president elect stood on a platform of transforming not just America but America's 'reputation' abroad - stopping the sensless murder of victims of rape, this latest case was a child of 13 years, would be a really good start.

Its unfortunate that twats like you cant see that.

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once you realize that neoconservatism is a left-wing mentallity, then all contradictions cease.

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[quote=88Mariner;673079]

Second, why close your borders there in Israel? WHat are you, isolationist? A country does not exist without borders and we've done a piss-poor job at closing ours up. We cannot even begin to take our national security seriously until we close the goddman doors and windows. Until then, fighting abroad should be out of the picture.

. .[/quote]

think that has been dictated by the last 40 years or so.

maybe these pics will jog the memory

[IMG]http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/images/hamas-march-20040520.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://mensa-barbie.com/bloggerimages/THE_NEW_KORANIC_CHILDRENglpalkiduse[/IMG]

just saying.

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[quote=davetlv;673049]Then remove yourselves from the international stage - completely.

Become the closed isolationist country that China is. how does that work for you?[/quote] I'm really starting to wonder if you have a few screws loose. Just because we don't form a Moral Police Brigade to march into every village in every nation does not mean we have to remove ourselves from the international stage. Don't be so silly. And you [I]really[/I] think that the USA has the money and people required to go police every village in every nation to ensure that no rape/killing/stoning/whatever is occurring? I'm sorry, but that's just laughable...I know small children that are not that naive.

[quote=davetlv;673049]The US is the one remaining super power - the question is are you prepared to hand that throne over to China and the Russian bear?[/quote] The US is already losing its sole superpower status. We are a mature empire in decline. Even once we get out of this crisis, our economic growth will not be what it was in the past. Our population is aging. In the future, the dollar will likely no longer be the reserve currency for the world to the extent that it used to be. China will grow up to be the new superpower. Get used to it.

If you feel so strongly about stopping every person in every corner of the world from doing something bad, I suggest you and your fellow country men go do it instead of telling us that it's our job. Good luck!

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[QUOTE=88Mariner;673079]Second, why close your borders there in Israel? WHat are you, isolationist? A country does not exist without borders and we've done a piss-poor job at closing ours up. We cannot even begin to take our national security seriously until we close the goddman doors and windows. Until then, fighting abroad should be out of the picture.[/QUOTE]

so detached (is that comparison) and meaningless that words truly do fail me. Unless you were trying to specify something else, which please do, so your intent isn't lost in what you typed.

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^ Tlv was saying that it is wrong for us to close our borders (if I read it right), and that by trying to do so we were more 'isolationist', practically 'like china'. I only applied the same to Israel to point out that total border security is necessary. Absolutely necessary.

To add to what you said above, the very fact that we've become the security welfare state means that our ability to export security has significantly dwindled as a result; thus making it worse for everyone.

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[QUOTE=88Mariner;673109]^ Tlv was saying that it is wrong for us to close our borders (if I read it right), and that by trying to do so we were more 'isolationist', practically 'like china'. I only applied the same to Israel to point out that total border security is necessary. Absolutely necessary.

To add to what you said above, the very fact that we've become the security welfare state means that our ability to export security has significantly dwindled as a result; thus making it worse for everyone.[/QUOTE]

I dont think reference to China was meant to "physically" shut down its borders as opposed to the freedom/liberty/flow of information as it exists in a democracy, unlike the Reds who rule by the edge of a sword.

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what does the flow of liberty/information/freedom have to do with ruling by the edge of a sword in the context of 'isolationism'.

nothing.

the inference is that, if we shut down our borders and take back our troops and stop funding money, we will, by assertion, inhibit freedom, liberty, etc....

i don't know how one gets to such a conclusion....

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[QUOTE=88Mariner;673113]what does the flow of liberty/information/freedom have to do with ruling by the edge of a sword in the context of 'isolationism'.

nothing.

the inference is that, if we shut down our borders and take back our troops and stop funding money, we will, by assertion, inhibit freedom, liberty, etc....

i don't know how one gets to such a conclusion....[/QUOTE]

because in China, they control everything.......EVERYTHING and they put people to death even in civil cases and comparatively minor crimes of bribery. AND as no information gets in OR out of that country, including their internet, unless its monitored. They don't involve themselves in events around the world and generally remain to themselves for the most part.... THAT is the isolationism they create for themselves. Look a little beyond the words matey. Being locked up in a room with no windows isn't isolationism.

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^ that's nice. our constitution doesn't allow for that. nor do our people.

Again, what does closing borders with strong security and removing our soldiers from occupying foreign countries, and not paying under-the-table bribes to entangling alliances....have to do with cutting off the air-supply of liberty within the country?

Again, i say nothing.

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I stoned myself last night.

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[QUOTE=88Mariner;673120]Again, what does closing borders with strong security and removing our soldiers from occupying foreign countries, and not paying under-the-table bribes to entangling alliances....have to do with cutting off the air-supply of liberty within the country?[/QUOTE]

it has nothing to do, you're drawing incorrect parallels which is leading the conversation ....... shall I say it diplomatically.... elsewhere.

[QUOTE=lilsensa;673122]I stoned myself last night.[/QUOTE]

am about ready too

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kamal fucked up is quite possibly one of the greatest TV shows never to be filmed. you can laugh just looking at him.