[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
[url]http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/27/news/companies/auto_bailout/index.htm?postversion=2008102712[/url]
Looks like that 700b that was 'supposed' to go to wall street banks could find its new home in automakers.... joy.
Let the shit fail for christs sake... they all make crappy cars anyways.
Re: US Automakers are next
the implications of the car companies failing will be much greater then Wallstreet when it comes to jobs and voters. Also you don't want to piss off the mafia..cough cough.. sorry unions.
Re: US Automakers are next
[QUOTE=runningman;668014]the implications of the car companies failing will be much greater then Wallstreet when it comes to jobs and voters. Also you don't want to piss off the mafia..cough cough.. sorry unions.[/QUOTE]
yes but where is the line in giving companies money that we dont even have? is there one?
Re: US Automakers are next
Unfortunately I don't think there is one. It's like bailing out your buddies and putting the tab on someone else. That is what is happening here. Anyone that says otherwise is dead wrong.
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Americans make the shittiest cars on the planet.
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the american auto unions have comepletly destroyed themselves through greed. much like the NYC teachers, they bit thier nose to spite thier face without realizing it. wages that were entirely too high, combined with lack of engineering and the "love fest" with american steel, they literally broke the bank, cost themselves jobs, and never improved thier product. there are countless articles about how they dont want to progress into the lighter, safer materials that japanese cars use, because it will result in less labor being needed. also, they know that if they produce an american version of an audi, VW or the like, their sales decline in the future as those cars simply last longer and perform better. but in this train of thought, the consumer went elsewhere.
these people do not deserve any money, as they essentially were the NHL players union of the 90's, refusing to accept bottom line numbers regarding profit and consumerism. they demanded the american consumer buy their product, and we didnt. wefound toyota, honda and volkswagon. this is one group that should be left to the wolves.
the government should get involved only in banking, insurance, and pharmaceuticals. these are neccessities, and american autos are not.
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[QUOTE=thesightless;668045] the government should get involved only in banking, insurance, and pharmaceuticals. these are neccessities, and american autos are not.[/QUOTE]
How on earth did pharma companies get lumped in with these others? It's like comparing apples and umbrellas.
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just my opinion, and not based on bad business. i just feel that no company should be allowed profits for treating disease. medications should be minimal cost. ppl cant afford thingss as it is, chemotheraphy, aids drugs, and the like should be accessible to everyone who has the illness, not just those who can afford it
that has nothing to do with Bailouts, just was chiming in about what i beleive should be nationalized.
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Pharmaceutical companies isn't a subject you want to get into an argument with Toasty about. :lol:
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i agree with you sightless.
all bush is doing is giving these companies money to delay the inevitable. then whoever becomes president gets the blame for it failing.
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yeah, in last analysis, this bailout road to hyperinflation can be summed up in these few words..
[IMG]http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3731/itsatrappreviewqh6.png[/IMG]
am i right or am i wrong?
glad we keep the pre 70s, vintage hot rods in storage... cuz damn.
lmao at the new chevy crossover.
[IMG]http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080205/080205-chevy-traverse-hmed3p.hmedium.jpg[/IMG]
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I'm actually happy that some of the $700 Billion is going to someone rather then Bankers. I mean guys are we serious here??? This to me is a great success rather then having all the money concentrated on wallstreet this will help the middle class by helping save thousands of jobs. This is really goint to boost Michigan and Canada as a whole. In Canada we supply millions of parts to your auto makers driving our economy here.
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[quote=runningman;668202]I'm actually happy that some of the $700 Billion is going to someone rather then Bankers. I mean guys are we serious here??? This to me is a great success rather then having all the money concentrated on wallstreet this will help the middle class by helping save thousands of jobs. This is really goint to boost Michigan and Canada as a whole. In Canada we supply millions of parts to your auto makers driving our economy here.[/quote]
I don't at all agree with it. It's poor business practices on the auto manufacturing part. Rather than have adapted and looked to the future in terms of efficiency, they merely stagnated with wannabe luxury vehicles with all sorts of techno amenities. And when they went down the shithole, as far as I've read, they didn't think about streamlining their line of models. Bailouts are integrating false senses of security.
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^^ +1
I'm not happy about giving the bailout to more than the bankers. And you all remember that I was for the bailout. It was imperfect and painful but imo needed to be done - unless we wanted to end up like Iceland.
But I DO NOT think that it is a good idea to keep casting that bailout circle wider and wider to cover everybody and his brother. The goal of the bailout was to preserve some liquidity and avoid a complete disintegration of the global financial system, NOT to avert a heavy recession. It was bad enough already that we had to bail out the financial system and we really can't pile onto our national debt even further this way.. We're going to have a heavy recession regardless, and many of us all around the world are unfortunately going to lose jobs. We just can't bail everybody out. It's unfair since we did bail out some key players, but that's how it is.
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If failure is eliminated, success is meaningless.
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Ok guys.
[URL]http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1853846,00.html?imw=Y[/URL]
I mean I am for letting things fail but it is about time the government has come in and helped out the big three to compete with foreign (Tin can) cars. Now that gas prices are falling I see a big year coming for GM. Gm has the best SUV's and trucks out there.
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balance. equilibrium. adjustment.
look to the past and fail, look to the future and win.
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[QUOTE=runningman;668420] Gm has the best SUV's and trucks out there.[/QUOTE] :lol:
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I want a bailout too... :(
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after reading further into this, i am still hellbeant against it.
this isnt a case like the banking where american stupidity and fear gutted a system that relies on the people. the banks did what was asked of them and it backfired because of two major events, 1. missmanagement of lehman, and the default of wachovia's line.
this is a case of american auto manufacturers refusing to compete with the better companies becuase of thier big labor contracts, and refusal to innovate.
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[QUOTE=thesightless;668614] refusal to innovate.[/QUOTE]
this is the biggest. GM spreads something like 10 models across the same two platforms. Fking joke. Let em fail.
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they still use steel!!!!
comon already. use composites. they are safer, cheaper.
thier engines are all big block crap. amazing how BMW can take a 4 cylinder, non turbo, and make it shit on an american V8.
my G35X (V6) can give a supercharged V8 camaro a decent run until the charger takes hold.
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[quote=runningman;668420]Ok guys.
[URL]http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1853846,00.html?imw=Y[/URL]
I mean I am for letting things fail but it is about time the government has come in and helped out the big three to compete with foreign (Tin can) cars. Now that gas prices are falling I see a big year coming for GM. Gm has the best SUV's and trucks out there.[/quote]
Gas prices are only falling due to less demand and OPEC is still cutting output. If they cut output, as they said they would, and people buy more gas guzzlers, prices will go up again. They've had all the time in the world to correct this.
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imo. US automakers woar only good for one thing... hot rodding. anything after the early 70s is crap.
omfg, i want to choke myself every time i see an suv, lifted truck, or a new hummer on the road -- and i see them more than frequenty here. ffs.
[B]oil and steel should be obsolete by now. ffs[/B].
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[quote=runningman;668420]Ok guys.
[URL]http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1853846,00.html?imw=Y[/URL]
I mean I am for letting things fail but it is about time the government has come in and helped out the big three to compete with foreign (Tin can) cars. Now that gas prices are falling I see a big year coming for GM. Gm has the best SUV's and trucks out there.[/quote] It's ironic that the roles have flipped and I'm now arguing against more bailouts while you're arguing for them (unless you're somehow being sarcastic)...
American car companies have been a disaster for a good two decades now, and they really can't blame anyone else except for themselves for their own disasterous mismanagement.
And last thing... If GM is counting just on the oil prices coming down in order not to lose their shirts, they are screwed. Don't get used to the low gas prices; they will go back up once this economic environment settles. Global demand will only continue to rise. Furthermore, and ironic impact of low oil prices is that it discourages oil companies from investing in capital and infrastructure...thus making shortages worse and prices higher in the long run.
I think GM stands a good chance of becoming non-existent within 12 months. I think that the Big Three will probably become the Big Two at minimum.
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Its the companies problem if they buckle under the pressure of unions in order to safeguard their employees' jobs. Unions are a big ass waste of time imo. Why pay someone more money than they are worth? makes no sense to me. if this was a union-less country, there would be a lot less money problems imo.
if we keep bailing out any dick, joe and mary incorporated, what the hell is the point? Its funny how liberal all these conservatives have gotten when it comes to business.
the lack of darwinism in today's society is hurting every man woman and child.
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the idea of a 'union' is epic win, it's practicality at the moment.. is dim and fail however (desception and greed are fatal diseases). hopefully they will straiten the fuck up.
lmao at darwinismz. i think what you are tryin to say is: labor, striving and competition. (?)
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[IMG]http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/funkbutter/graphics/Funny/9_funny_michael_jackson_your_next.jpg[/IMG]
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I can't believe you guys believe that the oil proces went up because of the demand issue. How gullible. The oil prices have gone up because oil makers are sticking us in the ass. That is the ONLY reason why. Refining costs have come down dramatically over the last 30 years. Oil will stay down once Bush is out of office.
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^ bushwacked. jj.
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GM still sucks.
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[QUOTE=ddr;668719]Its the companies problem if they buckle under the pressure of unions in order to safeguard their employees' jobs. Unions are a big ass waste of time imo. Why pay someone more money than they are worth? makes no sense to me. if this was a union-less country, there would be a lot less money problems imo. [/QUOTE]
Unions are the ultimate example of a catch 22 in action, IMO. For larger employers, unions are the only way for employees to have any meaningful leverage against their employer to avoid getting bent over when it comes to wages and benefits.
On the other hand, they are completely counter-productive when it comes to encouraging people to excel at their job and can most certainty reach a point where unfair advantage is taken of the employer. They had a grocery store worker strike here a few years ago, and come to find out, these cashiers were bitching because they were only making like $13 an hour [B]as cashiers[/B]. I honored the strike, but at the same time, I was thinking, "Cry me a motherfucking river."
No good answer, IMO.
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[quote=runningman;668729]I can't believe you guys believe that the oil proces went up because of the demand issue. How gullible. The oil prices have gone up because oil makers are sticking us in the ass. That is the ONLY reason why. Refining costs have come down dramatically over the last 30 years. Oil will stay down once Bush is out of office.[/quote] Um. I know you hate it when I do this, but.....
You're partly right, partly gullible. Oil prices went well higher than demand would suggest. But it wasn't the oil companies that did it, it was primarily the speculators.
Oil companies do not simply set oil prices. If they did, they would have already jacked up the oil price decades ago and never let it drop (like it just recently did). Oil companies can only [I]influence[/I] the price of oil by their level of output. OPEC just recently announced production cuts, and prices didn't turn right back around. Oil prices are defined by a whole multitude of players in global commodities markets, and they reflect much more than just the cost the oil companies incur to pump it out of the ground.
It's looking like speculators were able to drive the prices up. Speclators make money on short-term price movements, and they are not the same as the oil companies - they are mainly all kinds of financial institutions such as hedge funds and mutual funds. Speculators were able to set off this momentum because there [I]was[/I] (and is) real data that indicated that the buffer between supply and demand was eroding - significantly driven by increased demand from China (they've been experiencing double-digit growth for the last few years - what do you think fuels that kind of economic development?). Once the momentum starts going, others pile on to cash in and drive it further - sound familiar? (answer: housing bubble)
Oil prices are coming down right now because there is a massive global recession under way, which will reduce demand for the near term. Certainly, speculators drove oil up higher than underlying demand. But on the flip side, it could now be driven down lower than long-term underlying demand. Like any statistical process, you will see some variation in the short term; the important thing to focus on is the longer-term trend.
One final note: Anytime you hear concerns about refining, it's almost always [I]refining capacity[/I] that is the issue, not refining price. One of the things about low oil prices is that it discourages capital investment into infrastructure - can you guess why?
Anyways, back to the issue at hand..... We unfortunately can't keep expanding the bailout further and further to cover every industry.
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I will say it again the oil will stay down once Bush is gone. When I read your responses Miro I feel like I am reading an article from CNBC. I don't buy it.
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^^ free country. I agree that oil will stay down [I]for a while[/I] after he is gone simply because we are in a global recession and no one can afford to spend like they did in the past.