HorizonForumsone horizon
Log inSign up

[ms] · Est. May 2002

Music madethis place,we just kept itgoing...

One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.

Forums / Politics

National Bankruptcy

43 durable postsStarted 2008-09-14Latest 2008-09-19
#59555Post 1 of 43

[URL]http://www.cnbc.com/id/26656750/site/14081545/[/URL]

[QUOTE] The end result of the global economic slowdown may be the U.S. announcing national bankruptcy as the government cannot afford the bailouts that it promised and the market will not bail out the government, Martin Hennecke, senior manager of private clients at Tyche, told CNBC on Thursday.

"We expect a depression in the United States. We expect a depression, very possibly, also in Europe," Hennecke said on "Worldwide Exchange." [/QUOTE]

jaysus. screw the election. this is more important.

[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/10wqyie.jpg[/IMG]

#1083515Post 2 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Lehman may be filing bankruptcy tonight.

Add another to the list.

#1083516Post 3 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

In the past, a town or 2 may either declare bankruptcy, or ultimately get taken over/run by the state through receivership, loans, etc.

Just recently, there are now a few [i]counties[/i] either bankrupt, or on the verge of such.

Next could very well be an actual state.

It just keeps progressing upward.

#1083522Post 4 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

^ Ron Paul predicted the Lehman bankruptcy years ago. I'm not calling him prophetic, but I'm beginning to think that his words should be lent more weight. Some of the recent stuff he's said worrisome....and Greenspan has substantiated them--> the 'Span said that McCains tax cuts will not work....man that could be troublesome if he does get elected.....

I'm all for tax cuts and limited government, but if I were to choose between higher taxes and saving the fiscal viability of the US, or taking a tax cut and losing it all....obviously the choice is the former.

Then again, perhaps the former would only prolong the inevitable?

#1083526Post 5 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

^^What does the average family do when things are tough on the finance side? They cut the budget.............

#1083527Post 6 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

And what do those families do when they declare bankruptcy?

#1083528Post 7 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Lose everything and start over.

#1083529Post 8 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Joe Klein [URL="http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09/the_mccain_tax_increasescontin.html"]reveals[/URL] ( [URL]http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09/the_mccain_tax_increasescontin.html[/URL] ) that John McCain's chief economic adviser is smart enough to know that unless there are real, deep cuts in entitlements, taxes will have to be raised somewhere if the US is not going to fall off a fiscal cliff. But McCain will not say so in this campaign. Why? Matt Miller's forthcoming book explains: [INDENT]So why does tax-cutting mania persist among Republicans, I asked [Douglas] Holtz-Eakin, the McCain adviser--given...that, as Holtz-Eakin himself explained to me, taxes soon have to go up substantially in any event? [/INDENT][INDENT]"It's the brand," he said, "and you don't dilute the brand." [/INDENT]Beneath McCain's veneer of dishonesty lies another veneer of cynicism. They're interested in marketing, not governing, in lying, not debating.

#1083530Post 9 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Right. Lets stop with the tax cut bull*&$ and start cutting spending....the current foreclosure numbers reflect what is happening with our governments spending, ie, spending more then it can afford, but does it anyway because they can borrow it.

This is nonsense. I understand the US has enormous resources but there will come a time when it simply can't go on like it presently is.

To go through all the unfunded liabilities congress has co called guaranteed is mind boggling.

Looking back at what happened during or more accurately right before the great depression of the 30's, Banks had huge 'Banking Pools' where they pooled together depositor money to try and rescue the sputtering financial system of the day, kind of like the FED of today and what they are/have been doing.

Now the lender of last resort is turning out to be Congress. Trying to stop the natural course of risk is in an of itself a much greater risk and this is what they are attempting to do.

#1083676Post 10 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

It is asphyxiating that they have been calling this "Black Sunday" btw.

I can only imagine all the panic going on right now in high places. IMHO this is going to suck hard, but this inflated bubble had to burst, for better forms of economic reform to take place. The elephant can no longer hide under the rug, and even the media/politicans can't spin the situation otherwise.

Remember Lincoln with the Greenbacks and Kennedy with the 2 dollar bill thing? nuts.

/Investing in gold etc.

#1083698Post 11 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[URL]http://www.securagroup.com/news/archives/articles/2008/AB080827.pdf[/URL]

[quote]The banks have been paying money to the FDIC, the FDIC has been turning the money over to the Treasury, and the Treasury has been spending it on missiles, school lunches, water projects, and the like. The money's gone.[/quote] Interesting little read on the FDIC and banking industry by a former chairman of the FDIC.

#1083778Post 12 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

which is why if a few more institutions fail in a row, the FDIC would be out of money to insure the accounts that they would vs. what's available in their annual budget...so they go to the Treasury for more!

I'm waiting to see G.D.-style of thousands lining up at banks to try and get their money out (was a pretty good sight when IndyMac failed)

#1083798Post 13 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

keep in mind that the US Government doesn't "run out of money"; they can print football fields full of the stuff, if they wish. The real problem is that the stuff then becomes near worthless as heavy inflation takes hold. And that is like a direct and massive tax on every one of us that undercuts our standard of living. See my "recession or hyperinflation" thread.

#1083810Post 14 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

^ exactly. This is reminiscent of the depression of 1929. Well, I guess I'll be able to experience a depression.

#1083813Post 15 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[QUOTE=Localizer;650135]Well, I guess I'll be able to experience a depression.[/QUOTE]

To anyone that's been listening to me for the last 36 years, when I said I'd like to experience everything once, I forgot to exclude "a depression." My bad.

#1083831Post 16 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=toasty;650138]To anyone that's been listening to me for the last 36 years, when I said I'd like to experience everything once, I forgot to exclude "a depression." My bad.[/quote]

lol.

I truly hope you don't my friend.

#1083835Post 17 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=Lorn;650012][URL]http://www.securagroup.com/news/archives/articles/2008/AB080827.pdf[/URL]

Interesting little read on the FDIC and banking industry by a former chairman of the FDIC.[/quote]

[quote=FM;650101]which is why if a few more institutions fail in a row, the FDIC would be out of money to insure the accounts that they would vs. what's available in their annual budget...so they go to the Treasury for more!

I'm waiting to see G.D.-style of thousands lining up at banks to try and get their money out (was a pretty good sight when IndyMac failed)[/quote]

You are both correct. And you may not have to wait that long to see people lining up at banks.

[B]Top Economist: Americans Should Worry About Bank Deposits if Congress Doesn't Act[/B] [URL="http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/56994/Top-Economist-Americans-Should-Worry-About-Bank-Deposits-if-Congress-Doesn%27t-Act?tickers=LEH,MER,BAC,AIG,WM,%5EDJI,%5EGSPC"]http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/56994/Top-Economist-Americans-Should-Worry-About-Bank-Deposits-if-Congress-Doesn%27t-Act?tickers=LEH,MER,BAC,AIG,WM,%5EDJI,%5EGSPC[/URL]

[quote]But Americans are justified to be worried, says [URL="http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nroubini/"]Nouriel Roubini[/URL], of NYU's Stern School and RGE Monitor, who notes there is already a "slow-motion run on retail banks" occurring nationwide.

That "run" could accelerate as people realize the FDIC fund has about $50 billion to "insure" about $1 trillion in assets at the nation's financial institutions, says Roubini. "They're going to run out of money" unless Congress acts soon to recapitalize the FDIC.[/quote]

This guy is significant because he's been one of the few to accurately predict the severity of this mess. He always sounded really pessimistic and people were basically laughing at him...they're not laughing now. It's really getting ugly out there.

I will no longer keep all of my non-invested savings in one bank.

#1083958Post 18 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

^^^read that earlier. Crazy shit.

While AIG is crying to get some money, Washington Mutual is rumored heavily to be the actual next failing...being downgraded to junk status today only fuels that more. It's stock closed at $2, then went down another $.20 in afterhours trading.

If so, FDIC just burned through the rest of its current funding for the year...and then some.

[url]http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/wamu-failure-could-trigger-extension-of.html[/url]

#1084024Post 19 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

this stuff scares me. think i'm going to stay in europe a little longer

#1084041Post 20 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Don't think europe will escape this mess.

#1084058Post 21 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=Lorn;650389]Don't think europe will escape this mess.[/quote]

Yep, we´ve been suffering since the sub-prime and credit crunch crisis started, so it´s only normal that we´re gonna get another tidal wave soon... I work for the local branch of an American multinational which was actually one of the 3 most profitable companies in the world in 2007, and we´ve already suffered massive layoffs in the 1st half of the year... I´m seriously thinking of bailing out...

#1084080Post 22 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=Lorn;650389]Don't think europe will escape this mess.[/quote] but the women are thinner and great public transport means i don't need to pay for gas ever

#1084084Post 23 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=tiddles;650435]but the women are thinner and great public transport means i don't need to pay for gas ever[/quote]

haha...good point!

#1084517Post 24 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Well Lehman is gone.. Merril Lynch is gone and now it sounds like AIG is next. Insurance companies now being hit. The ripple effect is in full swing now.

#1084531Post 25 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

but the fundamentals of our economy are strong!

#1084562Post 26 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

You'd think I'd be able to find a quick answer to this, but I'm missing it -- what does BOA intend to do with ML? Will it be rolled into BOA, or is it going to remain as a wholly owned subsidiary under the ML name? Or something else?

Anyone know?

#1084601Post 27 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism[/url]

#1084603Post 28 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote]“The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”[/quote]

^Thomas Jefferson. 200 years ago.

#1084666Post 29 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=toasty;650961]You'd think I'd be able to find a quick answer to this, but I'm missing it -- what does BOA intend to do with ML? Will it be rolled into BOA, or is it going to remain as a wholly owned subsidiary under the ML name? Or something else?

Anyone know?[/quote]

They won't give you much detail on that. I don't see why they wouldn't just roll it into BOA. Reportedly, there is not that much overlap between the two institutions, so synergies to be realized should be heavily revenue and market-based as BOA dramatically expands its portfolio offerings and cross-sells to customers. Where they do have overlap, they'll just fire the redundant people and halk those cost savings up to the synergy benefits as well.

#1084672Post 30 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Your exactly right Jenks.

Toasty I think BOA is taking out Merril Lynch because they can . Bankers are always looking to get rid of competition to pave the way for the future with a financial monopoly

But who really knows why they do what they do.

i found this in an article... what a croc of shit

"[I]AIG's bailout brings to about $900 billion the total of U.S. rescue efforts to stabilize the financial system and housing market. Authorities may get much of that money back --[B] if [/B][/I][I]asset prices don't slide further. "[/I]

That is a pretty big "IF" in that sentence. $900 Billion so far and nothing saying it is over yet!! Ouch

#1084675Post 31 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

The BOA/ML merger makes zero sense, at least from BOA point of view. On Friday ML stock closed at $17.05 which is about a $26 Billion market cap.

BOA agrees to pay $29/share or about $44 Billion.

huh? Hello, I understand there is a premium to be paid when buying a company out but it was very obvious that on Monday ML shares would have plunged from that Friday close.

Sounds to me like someone had a gun to BOA and said either your brains or your signature on this merger agreement.

No matter how one looks at it, just plain fugly.

#1084676Post 32 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

It will be funny to see who bails out BOA in 18 months when we really see how ugly this pig is. We won't know how bad it is until the FED raises interest rates. Then we will see the real carnage of this.

Great Quote from Everett Dirksen

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money"?

AIG gets $85 Billion bailout?? Jesus help us. I owe $2,000 on my VISA why can't we wipe that out??

good article here

[URL]http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20771.htm[/URL]

#1084738Post 33 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=runningman;651086] I owe $2,000 on my VISA why can't we wipe that out??

[/quote]

Done. :)

#1084797Post 34 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

technically with a couple keyboard strokes you could ;)

#1084846Post 35 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Something which is puzzling. When I ran a company we always did one thing with bad debt at the end of every year, we wrote it off. Bad debt was bad debt.

So now I read idiot Christopher Cox [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axN7il2n3WO0&refer=home[/url]

Buying bad debt? And then trying to dispose of it? What?!

Bad debt is bad debt. Write it off and move on.

#1084853Post 36 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[url]http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/61982/Is-it-any-wonder-we-re-in-trouble-when-politicians-inhabit-another-world[/url]

Ugh...no wonder I agree with Sean.

#1085050Post 37 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=Lorn;651276]Something which is puzzling. When I ran a company we always did one thing with bad debt at the end of every year, we wrote it off. Bad debt was bad debt.

So now I read idiot Christopher Cox [URL]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=axN7il2n3WO0&refer=home[/URL]

Buying bad debt? And then trying to dispose of it? What?!

Bad debt is bad debt. Write it off and move on.[/quote]

Yes, but your business probably didn't have [I]$13 trillion[/I] in derivatives spread all over the world like Bear Stearns did. That's about the size of U.S. GDP.

When you write something off, it means that you are absorbing the loss out of your own pocket. That's relatively easy to do when your loss is small in the grand scheme of things and only harms your company and maybe its close business partners. But the whole point of this crisis is precisely that these losses are so large and pervasive that if you simply "write it off and move on", you will likely trigger a global economic meltdown. It's a matter of opinion, but the prevalent thinking in financial/economic/policy circles is that there are times when you do need government-led intervention to unwind massive derivatives positions, to absorb losses in an orderly manner, to keep key market players functional. So while I don't necessarily agree with Christopher Cox's specific proposal, his line of thinking is not completely out in left field...

Of course, the sobering reality is that there is ultimately no way to just make the loss disappear and avoid all of the unpleasant things associated with it. A loss is still a loss and someone has to take it; there is no free lunch. And so the people who take it now are all of us taxpayers over a series of years. But that is still better than the alternative, which would be to take it all overnight and set off a global market panic that could destroy many times the value of what has already been lost so far - and make us all even worse off as a result.

#1085088Post 38 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

Well, I hear what you are saying. And yes its the common thinking maybe in the elitist government circles and those who are/think they are in power.

I certainly don't agree with it. Yes, it would be horrible if all this debt were written off. Horrendous actually. But at the end of the day, the hard reality is most, maybe even all of it is absolutely worth zero. So if the government wants to buy something that is worth zero how can that be good? In fact all it will serve to do is make things worse.

I hope these guys are right. But shit is shit, no matter what one does to it.

#1085204Post 39 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

[quote=Lorn;651542]Well, I hear what you are saying. And yes its the common thinking maybe in the elitist government circles and those who are/think they are in power.

I certainly don't agree with it. Yes, it would be horrible if all this debt were written off. Horrendous actually. But at the end of the day, the hard reality is most, maybe even all of it is absolutely worth zero. So if the government wants to buy something that is worth zero how can that be good? In fact all it will serve to do is make things worse.

I hope these guys are right. But shit is shit, no matter what one does to it.[/quote]

Yes, most of it is obviously worth essentially zero and everyone knows it (although, actually, distressed debt can have value and actually be highly lucrative - aka junk bonds). But that's not the point. The point of such government intervention is a belief that the consequences of letting a Fannie Mae fail and suddenly unwind its losses on the open market is worse than shouldering some of the losses and unwinding them in a slower, more controlled manner.

And that's a matter of case-by-case debate. But I have to say, I really think you're drastically underestimating the impact that an outright failure of some of these institutions can have on us. Have you asked yourself what the likely consequences would have been if we had just stood by and watched while, for instance, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac died? These institutions originate or guarantee about [I]75% of our mortgages and held $5 trillion in debt[/I]. That is larger than the debt of most NATIONS. So let's start here in the US:

Tons of banks have balance sheet assets full of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac mortgages. They wouldn't have survived the fallout and you'd have banks going down right and left all over the nation. We have the FDIC, but that's only up to $100k so you can imagine how many people would essentially be losing cash and what the runs on the banks would look like anyways; that would only end up causing more banks to fail. So now you have the entire banking system faltering.

Furthermore, you'd now have a bunch of lenders gone and panic would ensue among the remaining market participants, so liquidity would just [I]complete dry up[/I] - overnight. So forget about getting financing if you're a business or a student, forget about maintaining access to your credit cards, forget about buying a car, forget about getting a mortgage to buy a home. Not to mention that home values across the nation would be decimated. So now you have untold millions of consumers suffering and [I]drastically[/I] curtailing their spending, and you have businesses folding throughout the nation. Massive unemployment would soon ravage the country and a nasty bout of deflation would take hold. And can you imagine what the equities markets are doing during this time? The crash would make 1929 look like a tea party. Many businesses would end up going under and untold billions of people would lose everything.

And it gets worse. Foreign entities and government obviously notice this and don't want to even touch American debt anymore. Not to mention that many international banks are also interwoven into this matrix and hold tons of assets that originated from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac mortgages. They'd all start going under. And then you have the international equities markets, and you can guess what will happen to them.

So you end up with the financial equivalent of throwing your car into reverse while driving 100 mph down the freeway. In other words, widespread economic disaster. Our economy would basically stop, and so to a large degree would our way of life as well. It's a pretty damn good case for government intervention.

Here's an article with some good quotes in it from finance ministers and financial experts around the world regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: [URL]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94424809[/URL]

#1085241Post 40 of 43

Re: National Bankruptcy

cramer thinks it is "Financial Terrorism"

[URL]http://www.cnbc.com/id/26778065[/URL]

Log in to reply