nice going, assholes.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

weird, I live close by in Florida and heard nothing about this...?

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Steve Graham;633788]weird, I live close by in Florida and heard nothing about this...?[/quote]

Funny.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

^ funny? 1,500 people are dead overnight. They've got russian tanks and planes storming into the sovereignty. This is really, really, really bad news for relations between russia, the us, and the rest of europe.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

did you see this? [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hil7k58bFJM[/URL]

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

I don't have any particular love for the Russians, and their response against Georgian civilians is looking disproportionately harsh. But it's worth keeping in mind that it apparently was [I]the Georgians[/I] who started it this time by invading South Ossetia - clearly hoping to benefit from the timing of the olympic games. Also, keep in mind that South Ossetians generally don't like Georgia and don't want to be taken over by them. These people have hatred going back hundreds of years, and neither side is "innocent".

These are things that you won't see emphasized very much on yahoo or cnn, seeing as the United States is always somewhat at odds with Russia - and Georgia happens to be a loyal ally of the United States.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

a few years ago as the US was leading up to the war, I had the chance to talk to a military officer about his thoughts on going back to war...whether it was good that we were ousting saddam and whether it would preciptate into world war three. He told me that while Iraq will certainly be a big military event, he explained that he believed that world war three would begin in South Ossetia. So, to wake up to this yesterday was, for lack of better words, stunning.

anyways, i've been intently following the news briefings that have come out. i'll post more as they are published.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[URL]http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.reax/index.html[/URL]

jesus. ballistic missiles against civilians?

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Miroslav;633905] as the United States is always somewhat at odds with Russia - and Georgia happens to be a loyal ally of the United States.[/quote]

Makes you wonder, do you think that Georgia had some sort of reason to believe that the US and it's allies were going to step in and help?

Could the leaders of Georgia really be so stupid/naive into believing that Russia would not respond?

Or do you think this move by Georgia was more of a tactical one?

Just hope that all the killings stop. :(

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=dig72;633929]Makes you wonder, do you think that Georgia had some sort of reason to believe that the US and it's allies were going to step in and help?

Could the leaders of Georgia really be so stupid/naive into believing that Russia would not respond?

Or do you think this move by Georgia was more of a tactical one?

Just hope that all the killings stop. :([/quote]

Here are two good articles about this:

[B]Georgia's Power Play - and Gamble[/B] [URL]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26105019/[/URL]

[B]Has Georgia Overreached in Ossetia?[/B] [URL]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831073,00.html[/URL]

It seems they were betting that they could quickly take South Ossetia by surprise while Putin and the rest of the world was fixated on the olympic games. I can't imagine that they didn't think Russia would retaliate, seeing as South Ossetians and Russians have strong ties. But perhaps the Georgians were hoping that US and EU diplomatic pressure might help them preserve their new status quo after they successfully blitzkrieged the region. The article also theorizes that Georgia's failed NATO bid also drove them towards this manner of taking matters into their own hands. Clearly, they miscalculated badly...

But again, one should keep in mind that, generally speaking, the Georgians and South Ossetians HATE each other and have been in ethnic conflict for over a century now. South Ossetia does not want to be under Georgian control. The Russians are brutal thugs, but the Georgians apparently made a unilaterally aggressive move that is unwelcomed by the South Ossetians.

This thread should really be titled: "Georgia Attacks South Ossetia; THEN, Russia Attacks Georgia".

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Santti;633846]did you see this? [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hil7k58bFJM[/URL][/quote]

Dayum

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

"has georgia overreached in ossetia?" what an absurd headline; ossetia is part of georgia. It would be like maine deciding to leave the Unitd eStates and give itself over to Canadian control, and the US military comes in to prevent this from happening. Overreached? Srsly?

also, reading between the facts, russia did want to punish georgia for seeking NATO status, and what better way to provoke a military response than by shooting down georgian military aircraft, and supplying dissident south ossetian rebels with arms and weapons which they could, and did, fire into georgia proper.

russia is also saber-rattling as against the czech republic, so far as intimating a nuclear response. don't listen to that propoganda bullshit that the russians are innocent on this. i see it as no different than an abusive husband who has gone to far and comes home to find his abused wife with a knife in her hand.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=88Mariner;633915]He told me that while Iraq will certainly be a big military event, he explained that he believed that world war three would begin in South Ossetia.[/quote]

I can see why he would argue that, given the oil pipeline through Georgia. I personally think World War III is more likely to begin somewhere between Israel and Iran.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=88Mariner;633977]"has georgia overreached in ossetia?" what an absurd headline; ossetia is part of georgia. It would be like maine deciding to leave the Unitd eStates and give itself over to Canadian control, and the US military comes in to prevent this from happening. Overreached? Srsly?[/quote]

Depends on your point of view. Like most areas of turmoil in the world, it's an area of turmoil because all three sides - South Ossetia, Georgia, Russia - have long-standing hatred AND can spin a legitimate argument for their actions. But it is VERY legitimate to argue that Georgia overreached in this paticular round of the conflict. Btw, in case anyone is wondering...I put in a lot of time studying this particular conflict for a class back when I was in school, and I also happened to know some folks from the region, myself being originally from central Europe...hence why I like to write about it.

Yes, everything you say about the Russians is true; they are thugs and they have a long-standing hatred of the Georgians. They are pissed about Georgia's NATO status, US support of Georgia, and the missile defense system. They are also pissed that they were forced to accept independence for Kosovo when South Ossetia was taken off the diplomatic table. And most importantly, they are pissed that the strategic oil pipelines in the region were built after the fall of the USSER through [I]Georgia[/I], and not through Russia. And they are now happy to use the situation to teach a brutal lesson to all of the former Soviet republics and to the West.

But at the same time, you can't just simply say "Ossetia should just be with Georgia". If you look back at Ossetian history you will find that the Ossetians in general have long-standing closeness with Russia and have struggled against Georgia for almost a century now. North Ossetia was a part of Russia dating back to the 1800s. When the Soviet Union came to power, North Ossetia stayed a part of Russia but South Ossetia was given as a prize to the Georgians - strongly influenced by the fact that Joseph Stalin was a [I]Georgian[/I]. The South Ossetians didn't want to be under Georgian control and they fought for their independence as far back as [B]1918[/B] (and lost).

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict_(1918-1920[/URL])

As I've said, most South Ossetians have no love for the Georgians and would like to be free from them. By most accounts, South Ossetians identify with their North Ossetian counterparts in Russia and would like to be reunited with them. In every referendum held, even under international monitoring supervision, South Ossetians always overwhelmingly proclaim that they don't want to be a part of Georgia. They already fought a war against them in the early 1990s and broke away from full Georgian control, the result of which was an uneasy truce wherein South Ossetia had "quasi" independence (not recognized by most of the world) and Russian, Georgian, and Ossetian troops set up "peacekeeping" positions - sort of like the 38th parallel in Korea.

But Georgia has never forgotten South Ossetia and has longed to bring it back under its power. Mikheil Saakashvili, president of Georgia, campaigned under a promise to bring the two breakaway republics back. Now here's where it gets tricky... Who started the war? Was it the Russians, itching to fabricate an "excuse" via South Ossetia to stick it to the Georgians? Or was it the Georgians, hoping to successfully blitzkrieg South Ossetia under surprise cover of the olympic games.

We'll probably never know for sure and each side will argue against the other. But right now, it [I]seems[/I] that Georgia was the aggressor in this round of fighting...in which case, yes, they grossly overreached.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

It's funny that the USA has been training the Georgian Army over the last few months and now an army of 21,000 is invading an army of 1 million. The real title should read "the USA/NATO invades Ossetia on first day of Olympics so nobody notices and then we can say the bad Russians invaded Georgia."

Cheney and the gang are masters of illusion..

Miroslav if you are grossly outnumbered and going to war that is not overreaching. Georgia would never have invaded Russia unless they have been told by NATO it is ok.. we have your back.. Russia could squash Georgia without even thinking about it.. Russia could realistically attack anyone now..

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=runningman;634039]The real title should read "the USA/NATO invades Ossetia on first day of Olympics so nobody notices and then we can say the bad Russians invaded Georgia."[/quote]

and why exactly would USA/NATO want to help the Russians destroy Georgia, who happens to be their own strategic ally? what would they gain from that?

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Miroslav;634040]and why exactly would USA/NATO want to help the Russians destroy Georgia, who happens to be their own strategic ally? what would they gain from that?[/quote]

No I didn't say that.. The USA is backing Georgia that is why Georgia picked the fight.. The USA has been training Georgia for months now.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=runningman;634042]No I didn't say that.. The USA is backing Georgia that is why Georgia picked the fight.. The USA has been training Georgia for months now.[/quote]

true, the US and Georgia are long-term allies. I just sincerely doubt that the US/NATO encouraged Georgia to invade South Ossetia. I figure the Americans are extremely unhappy with their ally right now.

By the way, if anyone wants one more data points about how the South Ossetians feel about Georgia's actions, read this:

[B]South Ossetian refugees flee 'living hell'[/B] [U][COLOR=#810081][URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/10/georgia.russia5[/URL][/COLOR][/U]

Here is a sample: [quote]Nearby stood Gennady Dzhioyev, 38, unemployed. He said: "My cousin came from Dmenis village last night. He got two bullets in the back. We're going to go there and slaughter the Georgians like the fascist pigs they are. If the Russians let us we'll smash them all the way to Tbilisi. We are a warrior race, we know how to fight."[/quote]

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

Wow we actually agree on something!!! It was very strange that it happened on the opening of the Olympics. Russia is going to drive over Georgia even now that they have called for a ceasefire.. I think the USA is just testing Russia to see what it will do.. The missile defense issue is a big deal and Moscow will do anything to defend itself from NATO.. The players are all set:

Russia China North Korea Iran

vs.

The Rest

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

You forgot Syria and Venezuela in that equation running.

I'm more in awe at the immediate mobilization by the Russians. Seems to me that this was certainly inevitable.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

^ Blitzkrieg-esque isn't it? The very next day after Poland's supposed "transgressions", Germany was wrecking their shit.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Localizer;634091]You forgot Syria and Venezuela in that equation running.

I'm more in awe at the immediate mobilization by the Russians. Seems to me that this was certainly inevitable.[/quote]

immediate mobilization? or pre-meditated. the truth is somewhere in the middle...

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Localizer;634091]I'm more in awe at the immediate mobilization by the Russians. Seems to me that this was certainly inevitable.[/quote]

It's not surprising if you consider that South Ossetia is a well-known powderkeg of violence set to go off at any time. The last war between the two sides there ended as recently as 1992. The whole place is heavily militarized.

It is mighty scary, how far Russia is taking this, though...

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=88Mariner;634097]immediate mobilization? or pre-meditated. the truth is somewhere in the middle...[/quote]

Imo, the Russians saw this coming a mile away.

And the response was swift and deadly.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

You know, I was thinking...

This whole situation with Georgia is extremely dangerous. It sets a precedent that any big country can take its military and just walk over smaller, helpless nations at will with impunity.

Oh wait, that sounds like us. :o:

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

nice points everyone. i for one cant keep pondering the synced timing of this conflict. it has one of those eerie predestined impressions and vibes no? what happens next? :what

earlier this year. [URL]http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373000[/URL]

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffJjyHhnjXM[/url]

that what America don't want to hear, you should shut up, people in USA know fucking nothing about history of this conflict. I have a lot of friends from Osetia, no one wants to be with Georgia. South Osetia was the part of Russia as well as North, it was one country, never Georgia. Stalin was georgian and he signed that south go to Georgia becaus of mountains, to make better borders, between South Osetia and North are mountains, between Georgia and South Osetia nothing. This conflict started now Georgia with help of USA, Russia stoped it, that's it, but you don't want to hear it, because you american. And remember Kosovo, Russia was the only one who say, you give independence to them give to others, lets live accordin to UN. But nobody wanted to listen, so now please shut up all. South Osetia and Abhasia will be independent! :)

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Leha;636072][URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffJjyHhnjXM[/URL]

that what America don't want to hear, you should shut up, people in USA know fucking nothing about history of this conflict. [/quote]

^ vain generalizing assumption at face value, but i think we get the intent of what you are trying to say.

...respect your indignant vigilance and pleas for liberation, but not all of us americans are dolts, a lot of americans actually declare war on their own ignorance.

imho. i would love it if the UN(not sapped by "some worms"), reigned supreme with a wave of internationalism. narrow nationalism's and chauvinism's are futile in a world structure right? wars happen when any peoples are under the sway of glamors, illusions etc.

peace out man.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

I have nothing against americans, i have a lot of friends americans, but when i look what information you get from CNN i'm really confused. It's clear that America wants Georgia in NATO to have their bases there (very close to Russia, Czech rep and Poland is the same), it's clear. You made there revolution, you trained Georgian army for several years, equiped their army for several years, and it's clear that your politician are not happy with the result now, when Russia with old weapon punished very well equiped georgian army. But the most important is what kind of arms where chosen to start this conflict, the aim was to kill as much as possible people, they didn't care if civilian or not. 40 thousand people (Osetians) ran to Russia, not to Georgia, 1600 killed during first night by georgian attack (not russians! as you get from CNN). Ofcourse there are some Georgians there, almost 1/3 of the population, but still that is Osetia. And now i'm sure no one there wanted to be a part of Georgia after it. Why Russia bombed Gori, because it's 30 km from Tshinvali and from this place Georgia started this conflict. Personally i think the time of this conflict is not random, Bush is going away from December, McCain is going to change him and that would be his election campaign "TO STOP RUSSIA, TO HELP SMALL GEORGIA WITH AGRESSION FROM RUSSIA" :lol: That's clear, and i'm sure he will win

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

Attacks by Russian hackers against Georgian Web sites, including one hosted in the United States, continued Tuesday even as Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered a halt to hostilities against Georgia. Tom Burling, acting chief executive of Atlanta-based Web-hosting firm Tulip Systems Inc., said the Web site of the president of Georgia was the target of a flood of traffic from Russia aiming to overwhelm the site. Burling said bogus traffic outnumbered legitimate traffic 5000 to 1 at [URL="http://president.gov.ge/"]president.gov.ge[/URL]. “Literally, our people aren’t getting any sleep,” Burling said. Tulip’s firewall was blocking most of the malicious traffic. The site has been periodically inaccessible, though it was working midday Tuesday. Burling said the attacks have been reported to the FBI. The site was transferred from servers in Georgia, the small nation south of Russia, on Saturday. Georgian-born Nino Doijashvili, Tulip’s chief executive and founder, happened to be in the country on vacation when fighting broke out Thursday. Doijashvili offered help to the government when it became apparent that Russian hackers were getting the upper hand, shutting down several government and news sites. The U.S.-based Shadowserver Foundation, which tracks Internet attacks, said they had noticed commands to attack Georgian sites being issued over the weekend to “botnets.” The computers are used to send bogus traffic to targeted sites, slowing them or in some cases bringing them down. The same botnets are also targeting Russian news sites and the Web site of Garry Kasparov, the Russian chess player and political activist, according to Steven Adair at Shadowserver. On Monday, hackers took over the Web site of Georgia’s parliament and replaced it with an image that drew parallels between Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili and Adolf Hitler, Adair said.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=johns;636133]On Monday, hackers took over the Web site of Georgia’s parliament and replaced it with an image that drew parallels between Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili and Adolf Hitler, Adair said.[/quote]

:D good job

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Leha;636116]I have nothing against americans, i have a lot of friends americans, but when i look what information you get from CNN i'm really confused. It's clear that America wants Georgia in NATO to have their bases there (very close to Russia, Czech rep and Poland is the same), it's clear. You made there revolution, you trained Georgian army for several years, equiped their army for several years, and it's clear that your politician are not happy with the result now, when Russia with old weapon punished very well equiped georgian army. But the most important is what kind of arms where chosen to start this conflict, the aim was to kill as much as possible people, they didn't care if civilian or not. 40 thousand people (Osetians) ran to Russia, not to Georgia, 1600 killed during first night by georgian attack (not russians! as you get from CNN). Ofcourse there are some Georgians there, almost 1/3 of the population, but still that is Osetia. And now i'm sure no one there wanted to be a part of Georgia after it. Why Russia bombed Gori, because it's 30 km from Tshinvali and from this place Georgia started this conflict. Personally i think the time of this conflict is not random, Bush is going away from December, McCain is going to change him and that would be his election campaign "TO STOP RUSSIA, TO HELP SMALL GEORGIA WITH AGRESSION FROM RUSSIA" :lol: That's clear, and i'm sure he will win[/quote]

I thought the same way you did at first. But then I became less certain that it was just Georgia who was the aggressor. It's quite plausible that Russia backed the Ossetian separatists and prodded the Georgians into war so that they could spin an excuse to attack them. It's no secret how much the Russians hate the Georgians, and they have many reasons to kill them. And there is talk of such Russian tricks in Chechnya as well... I just don't know. I suspect we'll never know the real answer.

Also, I'm quite confident in saying that America never expected Georgia to go take on Russia militarily and win. Russia is a massive country and a nuclear power, there is no way that a nation like Georgia could ever win such a fight.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=johns;636133]attacks by russian hackers against georgian web sites, .[/quote]

oh shit son!!! Russian hax0rz!!!11111111

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Miroslav;636143]It's no secret how much the Russians hate the Georgians, and they have many reasons to kill them. [/quote]

That's something new for me, i'm russian and i do not hate georgians. That's fucking politics. I agree with you that Russia backed Osetia, because there are no better friend in Caucasus for Russia than Osetia. Remember Beslan, why Chechen have chosen small city in Osetia, just because it's russian best friends in this region and Russia will always support them. 70% of all population in South Osetia have russian passports, because they all have relatives in North Osetia, that's one nation divided by mountains, they want to live together, and i'm sure most of Osetian will chose Russia with cheap gas, growing economics, then poor Georgia with 10% of GDP going to military. Russia supported Osetia, they provokated Georgia, Georgia started war and has been punished, that is exactly what politics in Russia and Osetia wanted. Now Georgia will never see it as it's territory. Btw if you look back, in 1920 Georgia killed in Osetia 18 000 people

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Leha;636387]Russia supported Osetia, [B]they provokated Georgia[/B], Georgia started war and has been punished, that is exactly what politics in Russia and Osetia wanted.[/quote]

Here's the thing. I agree with pretty much everything you say about South Ossetia. I'm somewhat aware of their violent history with Georgia, and I understand that the South Ossetians do not want to live under Georgia. Georgians have certainly done bad things to them repeatedly over time. That much is clear.

But as far as Russia hating Georgia, well I will rephrase that: [I]your government[/I] has many reasons to hate Georgia. And it goes much further than just South Ossetia. I could list the reasons, but I suspect you know them as well as I do...and they are already in this thread. And I suspect - just as you seem to say - that the Russians have been very active in exploiting the situation with the breakaway republics against Georgia. It's possible that Georgia started it all; it's also possible that Russia basically annexed Ossetia and supported it in firing on the Georgians, provoking the Georgians into an attack that would give Russia a good public excuse to attack Georgia. Which is really true? We'll probably never know. But what seems clear is that the Russian response very purposefully went [I]well[/I] beyond South Ossetia.

I think the reason that the world is so alarmed is because we've already seen what life is like with a very expansive and authoritarian Russia. And it's ugly. Yes, the Americans have done horrible things and they shouldn't be in Iraq, but they have still never been as extreme as to militarily occupy half of Europe for 50 years. I and my family have certainly been witness to life under an aggressive Russia; Russian tanks occupied my homeland and Russian politics forced us to eventually flee to American. People are rightfully scared that Russia is regressing and we are returning to those Cold War times, when Russia could bully its neighbors at will with its massive army.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

To speak about cold war, if the new cold war started, it started America. Russia do not want invest now to military, there are some money from gas and oil, but still there a lot of problems to do. America wants Ukraine and Georgia in NATO, America do radar in Czech republic and rockets in Poland, What russian have to think? about Iran? come on, everyone knows that it's made just for Russia. And now,Russia has to answer to it, but they do not want invest money to some more rockets that can overfly this radar and some other technical things, that cost money. America has it, but Russia don't. I'm completely sure that Russia is happy with it's territory, no one wants to occupy some countries. Imagine now if Russia will do it's bases, radars and rockets in Cuba, South America and so on, what Americans will think? So who is starting now new cold war? Not Russia for sure.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

can you possibly explain the reason russia needs to invest in rockets that can get past the radar? the whole setup is because russia is increasingly going off its rocker. And the russians do support thier government returning to supremacy. no doubts about that.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Leha;636539]To speak about cold war, if the new cold war started, it started America. Russia do not want invest now to military, there are some money from gas and oil, but still there a lot of problems to do. America wants Ukraine and Georgia in NATO, America do radar in Czech republic and rockets in Poland, What russian have to think? about Iran? come on, everyone knows that it's made just for Russia. And now,Russia has to answer to it, but they do not want invest money to some more rockets that can overfly this radar and some other technical things, that cost money. America has it, but Russia don't. I'm completely sure that Russia is happy with it's territory, no one wants to occupy some countries. Imagine now if Russia will do it's bases, radars and rockets in Cuba, South America and so on, what Americans will think? So who is starting now new cold war? Not Russia for sure.[/quote] Look, up until recently I even somewhat agreed with you on the missile defense shield. But regardless of my opinion - if it wasn't aimed towards Russia before, it is now! Russia's disproportionate actions have just convinced the rest of the world just how "peaceful" they really are and have provided the best argument for the missile defense system. Why do you think the [I]majority of Poles[/I] suddenly support the missile defense deal for the first time, after a year of stalling? And now Ukraine wants into the deal too. And can you blame them? Maybe last week, anyone who claimed that the Russians might invade all of Ukraine might have sounded ridiculous...now, it's not so crazy anymore. By the way, have you noticed that Russia's only allies seem to be other brutal, military-style dictatorships like Iran, Cuba, Syria, Venezuela, maybe China?... My point is that every democratic country is now scared of Russia.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

[quote=Miroslav;636894]And now Ukraine wants into the deal too. And can you blame them? [/quote] Do you know that 70% of all ukrainians are against to be in NATO? I'm sure Jushenko will never be the presiden again, his popularity in ukraine is less than ever. Ukraine are our brothers, Russia is much more close to them then USA

[quote=Miroslav;636894] By the way, have you noticed that Russia's only allies seem to be other brutal, military-style dictatorships like Iran, Cuba, Syria, Venezuela, maybe China?... My point is that every democratic country is now scared of Russia.[/quote] That's the myth what you get from CNN. What you mean democratic country? Georgia with pro american president? half of the world is scared of USA. I'm really happy that there are some countries that don't afraid USA and can say NO to their plans to control all world, and USA government is angry now that they cant control everyone everywhere.

Re: Russia attacks Georgia

^^^^ Look, this is my fear...

I am Slovak. I know what happened when Russian tanks rolled over my country in 1968. I come from a nation that knows what it means to be held down under Russia's military boot. And so do Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Bulgaria, Luthiania, Latvia, Estonia, Georgia, and a bunch of other small countries. We all suffered under brutal Russian dictatorship for decades and we [B]HATED IT.[/B] And none of us ever want to be under Russia's domination again.

And the same goes for the Ukrainians. They know they will reluctantly be "your brothers" when you invade them next and hold guns to their heads. We've all seen this before.

You can villify America all you want. The fact is, [I]all[/I] of Europe, especially Eastern and Central Europe, is now anxiously trying to protect itself from RUSSIA, not America. The exact pretext for the Georgian invasion is irrelevant at this point. What matters is that Russia has demonstrated that it will maintain and expand its spheres of influence by the force of its military, rather than through economic or democratic reform. For all its many faults, at least America tries to grow its influence through market competition and democratic unions rather than through intimidation and military invasion.

I still have many family members over in my homeland, most of whom lived through the Velvet Revolution of 1989. We had all hoped that Russia would finally embrace democratic and economic reforms and stop threatening its neighbors. We're all frightened and saddened to see Russia going back to its old ways as soon as it gathered its strength.

Well, I'm done here...I don't think this is going to get us anywhere. It's just really unfortunate that it seems to be ending up this way with Russia and the rest of Europe...again.

[URL]http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gI-dl13xRlpQ8Bwi-xglbKfzmvYAD92JGO0G0[/URL]