I assume folks have seen Phil Gramm's comment about America being a nation of whiners:

[QUOTE]"You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession," he said, noting that growth has held up at about 1 percent despite all the publicity over losing jobs to India, China, illegal immigration, housing and credit problems and record oil prices. "We may have a recession; we haven't had one yet."

"We have sort of become a nation of whiners," he said. "You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline" despite a major export boom that is the primary reason that growth continues in the economy, he said. [/QUOTE]

Notwithstanding his attempt to [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/10/mccain-adviser-americans_n_111857.html"]distance himself from this comment[/URL] and ultimately [URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/07/10/politics/fromtheroad/entry4248947.shtml"]throw Gramm under the bus[/URL], McCain evidently shares the sentiment that the economic issues in this nation are [URL="http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/19/mccain-a-lot-of-our-problems-today-are-psychological/"]psychological[/URL].

Setting aside the question of whether it matters if a nation is technically in recession when its citizens think it is, I think this is actually significant on a couple of fronts. For one thing, it seriously cuts into the mileage that McCain is going to get out of that "bitter" comment, because there's a ready response to that now -- true, this didn't come directly out of McCain's mouth, but there are lots of comments like his "psychological" comment linked above that effectively agree with this sentiment (heard a montage of them on the way in to the office) that will drop it squarely on his doorstep.

The other thing is more troubling, though. Regardless of whether it is technically a recession or not, Americans are looking for answers to the economic issues that they are facing -- skyrocketing gas prices, foreclosure, diminishing property values, increased costs for everything. How is McCain going to fix problems he doesn't even seem to think are real?

Re: Whiners

comment is wrong and ill timed...... especially considering the position.

but..there is validity to this comment. america lost its spirit and is rapidly becoming like some of the european nations that have a stagnant economy whereas the people have a sense of entitlement. due partly to union labor, and imho, public education faililng, but moreso because, like yankee fans, there is an expectation that someone else will make it better and 'we'll win anyway' mentality. i remember back to when france had its leadership call out its citizens for their ''no more than 40 bhour work week'' and lack of hard work. economies can ride a few select industries to success, but only for so long. every year the graduates are less educated as opposed to our competition coming out of asia and india and we are going to be slapped on the head in a few years when all big business is transferred to countries where the gov't is less involved. the US has already lost a few major industries to this idea of entitlement and lack of effort to attack. auto, retail manufacturing, service centers are out of asia now, and so much more. the foreign markets are taking money out of the NY and chicago exchanges. etc etc etc

Re: Whiners

yeah, i agree. validity to the comment. i would go beyond sayin it is psychological, and blame it on an ill-informed, anti-intellectual media. In fact, i would put blame of about 50% of this country's problems on the media. (at least 50%).

Re: Whiners

i am in complete agreement with you mariner. complete agreement. media makes everything worse. lehman has the biggest footing out there and the media is tanking their stocks. hell they actually put britney spears into the looney bin. and that statement isnt even a stretch, it actually happened.

Re: Whiners

I'll agree with both of you that the media rarely helps more than it hurts, but I can't lay this at their feet for completely manufacturing a completely non-existent phenomenon. I pay a jaw dropping amount to fill my gas tank, I've noticed my grocery bills are much higher, my house is worth less than I paid for it, and I've lost thousands on the stock market this year. I'm not bitching (OK, maybe I am), but I'm also not making this stuff up. That is a statement of fact.

I actually have a pretty dim view of any politician's ability to disrupt the normal ebb and flow of the economy, and I'm unfortunately not convinced that Obama or anyone else can do a hell of a lot about our current situation. The McCain campaign's inability to recognize this as a real problem isn't going to help dissuade voters of the notion that he's out of touch with real Americans, though, just looking at it from a horse-race standpoint.

Re: Whiners

[quote=toasty;623078]I'll agree with both of you that the media rarely helps more than it hurts, but I can't lay this at their feet for completely manufacturing a completely non-existent phenomenon. I pay a jaw dropping amount to fill my gas tank, I've noticed my grocery bills are much higher, my house is worth less than I paid for it, and I've lost thousands on the stock market this year. I'm not bitching (OK, maybe I am), but I'm also not making this stuff up. That is a statement of fact.

I actually have a pretty dim view of any politician's ability to disrupt the normal ebb and flow of the economy, and I'm unfortunately not convinced that Obama or anyone else can do a hell of a lot about our current situation. The McCain campaign's inability to recognize this as a real problem isn't going to help dissuade voters of the notion that he's out of touch with real Americans, though, just looking at it from a horse-race standpoint.[/quote]

[IMG]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3824/1215790233094ot3.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Whiners

^^care to elaborate?

Oil set another record today The market dipped below 11,000 earlier and is hovering around there now Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are getting creamed, which has far-ranging ramifications

None of that is really up for debate, and I would think that an inability to acknowledge the need to address that these are real, not imaginary, issues would be important for a candidate. If you need more proof of that, see McCain's eventual response to Gramm's comments.

Re: Whiners

i agree with you on mccain. but to seriously believe obama is the key to undoing this mess is...psychologically-based too: insanity.

get the goddamn government out of the way. you know this is what needs to happen. it must really hurt not to consider other options...

Re: Whiners

yes, the market prefers to be unregulated. but at this point, i think we need certain aspects of lock down regulation. the futures market is based literally on heresay, lending works opposite of how it should (poor people shuold ebgetting the lower rates. tie rates to value. the guy buying the million dollar home can handle teh 8%. the sanitation worker buying the 100K house cant. also, regualte tax assessment on property values).

but right now, all this is literally due to 3% of 1% of the loans out there. it is a microcosm of the bank's footings, and it is waterfalling itself into a global depression within a month.

Re: Whiners

[quote=shosh;623088][IMG]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3824/1215790233094ot3.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

lol

Re: Whiners

I agree that things are bad financially and no one can disagree with that. Gas prices are up, price of oil is up, food prices up indirectly because of oil, stock market down, etc. This trickles down to people's consumption for goods and services. It seems like this all started with problems in the mortgage business and Iraq has to somehow indirectly affect the economy.

However, psychological reasons, media and speculation are to blame too. Every time I turn on CNN, they're discussing how bad the economy is. I turn on Fox News and they cover the bad economy less than CNN. Which makes me think that the election in November has something to do with the economy coverage. The real economy situation may be somewhere in between.

I saw the "Whiners" comment on front page NY times, but hardly anywhere else. And Toasty, big Obama supporter, brings this up too. Yes, I wouldn't have said whiners, but not a coincidence that the Obama supporters jumped all over this.

Re: Whiners

[QUOTE=superdave;623482] I saw the "Whiners" comment on front page NY times, [B]but hardly anywhere else[/B]. And Toasty, big Obama supporter, brings this up too. Yes, I wouldn't have said whiners, but not a coincidence that the Obama supporters jumped all over this.[/QUOTE]

Honestly? I saw it all over the place -- RCP, CNN, MSNBC, Politico, Drudge, HP, all of 'em -- which is why I started the post, "I assume folks have seen Phil Gramm's comment." I would think it would be difficult to miss it. It was discussed on most of the Sunday a.m. shows, too.

Oh well.

Re: Whiners

[QUOTE=toasty;623899]Honestly? I saw it all over the place -- RCP, CNN, MSNBC, Politico, Drudge, HP, all of 'em -- which is why I started the post, "I assume folks have seen Phil Gramm's comment." I would think it would be difficult to miss it. It was discussed on most of the Sunday a.m. shows, too.

Oh well.[/QUOTE]

Most of what you listed like MSNBC, Politico, HP are left wing socialist blog sites or networks. And I won't watch or limit my viewing or reading of those sites. I don't want those sites polluting my mind.

CNN is credible and extraordinarily sly at being on the left. I do have a certain admiration for their sneakiness over at CNN. I did see the story on CNN later in the day. Drudge is Drudge and I ignore his site altogether.

Re: Whiners

[QUOTE=superdave;624087]Most of what you listed like MSNBC, Politico, HP are left wing socialist blog sites or networks. And I won't watch or limit my viewing or reading of those sites. I don't want those sites polluting my mind. [/QUOTE]

"Left wing socialist?" I'll grant you that Huffington Post is left leaning, but Politico? Hardly. And MSNBC? Yeah, Olbermann's their big name right now and he's way left, but their morning show, which is where I heard it, includes former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough & Pat Buchanan, neither of whom are shy about voicing their opinions on the topic of the day. It's not Fox, which doesn't even pretend to do real news anymore, but it's hardly a "left wing socialist" network.

And I don't agree that listening to news outlets with which you disagree is "polluting your mind." I take in about everything I can, including stuff that I know comes from a slanted perspective on both sides because I think it gives me a better understanding of how each side sees an issue. Plus, outlets can be biased not just in how they report, but in whether they report something at all. Notwithstanding that every other news source reported on it, go to Fox News' site and search for "whiners gramm" -- which would certainly pull that story if they had run anything on it at all -- and you get nothing on it. It was newsworthy enough for McCain to feel like he needed to throw his friend and campaign strategist under the bus, but not important enough to get a mention anywhere on Fox's site. Shameful that they continue to hold themselves out as journalists. Point is, if you shut certain information sources out, there's no way to assure yourself that you're getting the whole picture.

To each their own, tho...

Re: Whiners

yeah, i guess they are "left-wing socialist" if you're an anarchist.

are you?

no?

well then what grounds are they left-wing socialist?

DRUDGE?

shit....