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link to source story [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nico-pitney/a-mosaic-4000-americans_b_93044.html"]here[/URL]

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

Incidentally, this right here is the primary reason I'd have trouble voting for McCain if Clinton ends up pulling the nomination out of her ass somehow.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

impressive shot.

But this is Vietnam once again...maybe less dead to spin it that way, but it'll last just as long...if not longer.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

What makes you think Clinton has any plans to the contrary?

Anyways, I'm curious to what some of the soldiers on the ground think about this. About that thier original mission was simply a fabrication. Particularly those that were induced to join because they thought they were going to find WMD's...

edit: just read that 95%+ of the soldiers that have been killed happened after the notorious "Mission Accomplished" press conference...

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[QUOTE=88Mariner;581413]What makes you think Clinton has any plans to the contrary? [/QUOTE]

Well, she's not beating the war drum like McCain is. I have to think that she'd be the better option of the two on this issue, and I don't know that I could in good conscience vote for a dude that was hell-bent on giving us 4/8/100/10,000 more years of the same.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

The distrinction between McCain and Clinton is that McCain has reiterated he intends to continue our money-burning pursuit of to no end. Clinton, however, will use the same doublespeak as George Bush has done, skewing what she says and does in order to appease everyone possible. It's too easy to say that almost anything she says is done for self-serving political posturing.

"Her bold "I will end the war" promise is an obvious exaggeration. A truer description of her position would be, "I will do my best to end a war that I now believe to have been deeply mistaken, but the United States has many interests in the Middle East that must be protected." [URL]http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/10/the_fine_print_in_hillarys_pro_1.html[/URL]

For more recent quips, check this out:

"[QUOTE] When we talk about combat missions in Iraq, my understanding is that we had the same agreement that we would bring out combat troops but we would pursue a mission against Al Qaida in Iraq if they remained a threat. I don't know how you pursue Al Qaida without engaging them in combat. We should get as many of the combat troops out as quickly as possible. If we leave any troops in, like special operations, to go after Al Qaida in Iraq, we don't want them just sitting around and watching them. We want them to engage them. That is a very limited mission. That is what I have said consistently. It's going to be complicated, and it's going to take time. I intend to do it in a responsible manner that is as safe for our troops as possible. We're going to have troops remaining there, guarding our embassy. We may have a continuing training mission, and we may have a mission against Al Qaida in Iraq That's a very big difference than having the 160,000 troops that Bush has there today. [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Source: [URL="http://64.233.169.104/2007_Dem_Drexel.htm"][COLOR=#0066cc]2007 Democratic debate at Drexel University[/COLOR][/URL] Oct 30, 2007 [/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE] Q: In 2006, Democrats were elected to the majority in the House and Senate, and many believed that was a signal to end the war. You have said that will not pledge to have all troops out by the end of your first term, 2013. Why not

A: It is my goal to have all troops out by the end of my first term. But it is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting. We do not know, walking into the White House in January 2009, what we're going to find. What is the state of planning for withdrawal? That's why last spring I began pressing the Pentagon to be very clear about whether or not they were planning to bring our troops out. And what I found was that they weren't doing the kind of planning that is necessary, and we've been pushing them very hard to do so. You know, though, about the Democrats taking control of the Congress, I think the Democrats have pushed extremely hard to change this president's course in Iraq. The Democrats keep voting for what we believe would be a better course. [FONT=Arial][SIZE=1]Source: [URL="http://64.233.169.104/2007_Dem_primary_Dartmouth.htm"][COLOR=#0066cc]2007 Democratic primary debate at Dartmouth College[/COLOR][/URL] Sep 26, 2007 [/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

But this is just my opinion, which may or may not change when Clinton's does as well.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

Honestly, if Clinton ends up getting the nomination, I may be so disenchanted with the entire process that I don't vote at all out of protest, so this is probably a moot point. At this point, she has no realistic path to the nomination that I would view as legitimate, and if she's so drunk on power that she's willing to destroy the party to get the nomination, I'll probably just say "A pox on both your houses" and that will be that...

...so from my standpoint, the options are:

1. Voting for Obama over McCain, or
2. Getting royally pissed off and probably not paying a bit of attention to the whole process.

I can talk about what I'd do if it were Clinton v McCain, but the real answer is probably "nothing."

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

I'm on the same page as you. I think if it came down to Clinton v. McCain, I would take the opportunity to vote Libertarian, on the grounds that it could break down this two-party system. I've always thought that giving people more choices and freedoms to choose was a good thing, so I guess that is my motivation.

Also, I would probably make an effort to help others differentiate between what is conservative, and what is neoconservative. Because they aren't the same. Because one has made this country what it is/was...and the other has effectually destroyed it all.

It's ironic that you mention how Clinton is breaking apart the Democratic Party. I've seen that headline a few times this week. What's frustrating, is that McCain has done the very same thing with the GOP, and he's not getting any attention for it. Hell, when you have Ann fvcking Coulter say she'd rather vote for Clinton than McCain...ears should perk up!

And as angry as I am about this situation we're all in....given the option (dare I call it a choice) between McCain and Clinton.... doing 'nothing' doesn't seem all that bad anyways...

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

nytimes has a very good story on some of the soldier's stories, it was kind of hard for me to read, long but you should at least read the stuff that is in bold on each page... [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/us/25dead.web.html?hp[/url]

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

if it comes down to clinton v. mccain, i'm not voting.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

Unfortunately, I think there are people who will die in this war in Iraq who haven't even been born yet. Really. Iraq is a failed state with a puppet government set up by the occupier. The repercussions of this "misjudgement" will haunt America for generations, if not centuries.

We have created at least two more generations of terrorists by starting this war. Many young people in Iraq don't even have clean drinking water and maybe have 4 hours electricity, no sanitation, and a bleak economic future to look forward to. The educated have left Iraq along with their money. If there was a recipe on how to plant seeds to ensure future terrorism and hatred, it couldn't look any more accurately than the interaction between Iraq and the USA over the past eight years. Unbelievable levels of incompetence at the top. The US has lost its stature on the world stage. Will we ever regain respect of world citizens again? Sadly, those in power and many others in this country don't think that is necessary or even care one way or the other. "To hell with the rest of the world. US interests are the only ones that matter." That's the same attitude that got us 9/11 in the first place. Hubris, pure hubris. Blowback is a bitch.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Ronald Reagan

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

true that.

sad, as i get older, views start to change on life.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

As far as the presidential election of 2008 is concerned, my heart is with Ralph Nader. My head knows that there is little difference between the Republican and Democratic nominee (whoever it is), but there is one area in which the parties are very different. It is a vitally important area. Supreme Court nominees. The next four years may see up to 3 Supreme Court Justices retire. Before you go off and vote for a third party or sit out the vote, I urge you to consider the Supreme Court and how much its influence can affect the future direction of this country. What the Supreme Court says, stands, i.e. game over, no veto, no complaints, gotta live by it.:shock:

"If you're feeling turned off to politics, you better take a lesson from history. Either you turn on to politics or politics are gonna turn on you." [I]Ralph Nader[/I]

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

I agree 100%. I think that's a strike against McCain, who would seem to be the only person who could get Roe overturned at this point...

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[QUOTE=CactusBeats;581562]As far as the presidential election of 2008 is concerned, my heart is with Ralph Nader. My head knows that there is little difference between the Republican and Democratic nominee (whoever it is), but there is one area in which the parties are very different. It is a vitally important area. Supreme Court nominees. The next four years may see up to 3 Supreme Court Justices retire. Before you go off and vote for a third party or sit out the vote, I urge you to consider the Supreme Court and how much its influence can affect the future direction of this country. What the Supreme Court says, stands, i.e. game over, no veto, no complaints, gotta live by it.:shock:

"If you're feeling turned off to politics, you better take a lesson from history. Either you turn on to politics or politics are gonna turn on you." [I]Ralph Nader[/I][/QUOTE]

Voting for nader is the same as not voting.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=Jenks;581618]Voting for nader is the same as not voting.[/quote]

I agree with you there. I only used his comment for emphasizing my point about the Supreme Court, not for endorsing him as a candidate. My point is to warn AGAINST voting for third party or sitting this one out because of the Supreme Court issue.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

I will not vote for the lesser of two evils ever again. Not voting IS making a choice.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=Jenks;581656]I will not vote for the lesser of two evils ever again. Not voting IS making a choice.[/quote]

Sure is. Its making the choice that it doesn't much matter which direction our Supreme Court moves in or what kind of decisions they make.

You have removed all your options. Even if you ignore my advice about the Supreme Court, you have said that "Voting for nader is the same as not voting." So assuming your Nader statement can be extended to any third party candidate, the only circumstances you could possibly vote in are where your IDEAL candidate is in either the Democratic or Republican party. If you keep those conditions - you will NEVER vote for President in this country. That's fine by me, because the fewer people that vote, the more important and influential my vote or ANYONE's vote becomes. You have made yourself IRRELEVANT.:|

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

Oh i'm IRRELEVANT. Whoop de do. And you're relevant? :lol:

You've missed the point, and I'd go into detail and argue with you on this, but i don't give enough of a shit to do so at this time.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[COLOR=white][quote=88Mariner;581413][/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]Anyways, I'm curious to what some of the soldiers on the ground think about this. About that thier original mission was simply a fabrication. Particularly those that were induced to join because they thought they were going to find WMD's...[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]edit: just read that 95%+ of the soldiers that have been killed happened after the notorious "Mission Accomplished" press conference...[/quote][/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]Follow link below and read about the Winter Soldier Hearings.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white]Watch the preview about Winter Soldier and get an insight into the senseless destruction that is being caused by American troops and their leaders. [/COLOR]

[URL="http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier"][COLOR=white]http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier[/COLOR][/URL]

[COLOR=white]Not really suprised that the Winter Soldier Hearings got fark all media coverage.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=white][COLOR=white]I don't think the US big media and government really want the American citizens to hear or read on what is really happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that is US troops are just basically blowing shit up and murdering men, women and children[/COLOR].[/COLOR]

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[COLOR=black][quote=dig72;582707][/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Not really suprised that the Winter Soldier Hearings got fark all media coverage.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]I don't think the US big media and government really want the American citizens to hear or read on what is really happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that is US troops are just basically blowing shit up and murdering men, women and children.[/quote][/COLOR]

I actually did hear about WInter Soldier, but that's only because I listen to public radio. Commercial outlets aren't interested in this.

[quote=dig72;582707]And that is US troops are just basically blowing shit up and murdering men, women and children.[/quote]

I wish this weren't true, but from what I saw on the news today is Basra, it didn't look good. "Collateral damage" now is unacceptable. The US needs to leave and let the Iraqi's take charge of their country. They should have the right to self-determine. It is their country. Right now so-called "Iraqi gov't" only exists in the green zone. Any gov't that needs an occupying power to prop it up the way we are now, probably isn't viewed as legit by Iraqis anyway.

Jenks[B]Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?[/B] Oh i'm IRRELEVANT. Whoop de do. And you're relevant? :lol:

You've missed the point, and I'd go into detail and argue with you on this, but i don't give enough of a shit to do so at this time. And Jenks, man, I apologize for being so freeking rude. I didn't mean it personally. It irks me sometimes when I see people get so cynical and jaded about the political system because the only real way to change anything is from the inside. Its not that I don't understand why someone would be fed up with the candidates. My perspective is that voting at least gives me the right to complain (even though anyone has that right). Just that I do what little I can. It all boils down to this. For me its just easier to live with a positive attitude than negative one. Matter of choice.:)

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

Being alive gives you the right to complain, not voting.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

enough is enough.

it is fucking war. people die, be glad it isnt 60 years ago before the real war rules were implemented, because we could have won this war in 2 months if we really wanted to, but the civilian death toll would be a lot higher.

show me a war won without death. please. there isnt even a prize, i just wanna know. board games and video games dont count.

fuck, stop being pussies, write your congressman and let more bombs be dropped and lets just kill em all and implement a new government later. sounds stupid, but another year of all this STUPID FUCKING DEBATE on iraq will lead me to smuggle a nuke right into mecca and start WW3, if only to accelerate the end results.

GOD PLEASE TELL ME WHY WE DONT JUST STEAL THE FUCKING OIL.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

^ sure. nobody is disagreeing with you Sightless. War is hell. people do die. there are casualties on all sides.

but you operate from an erroneous premise: that this war was necessary. Because, in truth, it wasn't. All of the foundations we based this war on have been shown to be fabriated, misinterpreted, speculated, or plainly non-existent.

Some wars are necessary. nobody disagrees with that. but this wasn't one of them. And the death toll should be ZERO.

your suggestion to drop nukes amounts to having beat up a woman and deciding that, since you can't un-beat her, you might as well kill her.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=88Mariner;582754]^ sure. nobody is disagreeing with you Sightless. War is hell. people do die. there are casualties on all sides.

but you operate from an erroneous premise: that this war was necessary. Because, in truth, it wasn't. All of the foundations we based this war on have been shown to be fabriated, misinterpreted, speculated, or plainly non-existent.

Some wars are necessary. nobody disagrees with that. but this wasn't one of them. And the death toll should be ZERO.

your suggestion to drop nukes amounts to having beat up a woman and deciding that, since you can't un-beat her, you might as well kill her.[/quote]

sadly, this is war was inevitable, and neccessary, maybe not now, but later, absolutly. oil is basically the third most required resource beyond air and water. without oil, or even with oil at stupid high prices, economy and society would shut down. they were being proactive, stupid, but proactive. it would happened sooner or later. im not some anarchist beggin for chaos, quite opposite, but the means to the end are required.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=thesightless;582747][quote]it is fucking war. people die, be glad it isnt 60 years ago before the real war rules were implemented, because we could have won this war in 2 months if we really wanted to, but the civilian death toll would be a lot higher.[/quote]

It's not a war. It's an illegal invasion and occupation of a nation that never threatened the US or it's allies.

[quote]fuck, stop being pussies, write your congressman and let more bombs be dropped and lets just kill em all and implement a new government later.[/quote]

Ah yes, the biggest pussies of them all. The type that sit in the comforts of their homes, behind a computer screen yelling for death and destruction of fellow human beings but don't have the ballz to do it themselves.

[quote]GOD PLEASE TELL ME WHY WE DONT JUST STEAL THE FUCKING OIL.[/quote]

Because stealing is not only morally wrong but it is also very illegal.

Wtf are Americans teaching their kids?

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=CactusBeats;582721] [QUOTE]The US needs to leave and let the Iraqi's take charge of their country. They should have the right to self-determine. It is their country. Right now so-called "Iraqi gov't" only exists in the green zone. Any gov't that needs an occupying power to prop it up the way we are now, probably isn't viewed as legit by Iraqis anyway.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[QUOTE=thesightless;582850]sadly, this is war was inevitable, and neccessary, maybe not now, but later, absolutly. oil is basically the third most required resource beyond air and water. without oil, or even with oil at stupid high prices, economy and society would shut down. they were being proactive, stupid, but proactive. it would happened sooner or later. im not some anarchist beggin for chaos, quite opposite, but the means to the end are required.[/QUOTE] So you are saying it had to be done so Americans could have oil???????? Just maybe if they stopped driving around in their obscenely oil guzzling vehicles and put more effort into renewables they wouldn't have "had" to!!

They have bombed the fuck out of one of the oldest and most significant places in the world, and been responsible for hundreds of thousands of innocent lives for oil!!!!!:evil:

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=thesightless;582850]sadly, this is war was inevitable, and neccessary, maybe not now, but later, absolutly. oil is basically the third most required resource beyond air and water. without oil, or even with oil at stupid high prices, economy and society would shut down. they were being proactive, stupid, but proactive. it would happened sooner or later. im not some anarchist beggin for chaos, quite opposite, but the means to the end are required.[/quote]

Seriously dude, if you really want the oil, how about just paying for it like every other decent human being.

It's that simple.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

you make it seem like Bush and the American government is truly altruistic to the needs of the American people.

are you out of your mind?

whatever they went into Iraq for it surely wasn't about oil. perhaps if you look at the doctrines that supported thier initiative to wage war, you'll find the answer.

unfortunately, all of bush's advisors were terribly wrong about what they anticipated to happen in iraq.

if it was about the oil, we would have waged a completely different war.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

But,but, thesightless told us it was about the oil, now would he lie to us?????

btw Of course Bush and the American government is truly altruistic to the needs of the American people.!!!

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

sightless could very well be right.

but i think the evidence tends to show that Bush beleived Saddam was a threat, in light of tons of evidence to the contrary.

as he does with jesus, he took a leap of faith here, a really giant one, and decided against the facts known at the time hoping he could bridge the differences later....

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

For all you Negative Nellies who Hate Freedom, all I have to say is...

[s] [B][B][SIZE=4]"Mission Accomplished!!!"[/SIZE][/B][/B] [/s]

[IMG]http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/blogs/council/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/6_22_bush_mission_banner1.jpg[/IMG]

It's [I]amazing[/I] to me how adept we continue to be at Reaccomplishing our Mission in Iraq...over and over and over again...for 5 years now! :lol:

So much so that approximately 96% of our servicemen and women deaths have occurred [I]after[/I] our first Mission Accomplishment and Baghdad is still on lock-down right this moment!!! Huzzah! Bravo, Bush!

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[QUOTE=DIDI;583231]But,but, thesightless told us it was about the oil, now would he lie to us????? [/QUOTE]

1st problem - you're listening to thesightess. im just sayin... :lol:

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=Miroslav;583434]It's [I]amazing[/I] to me how adept we continue to be at Reaccomplishing our Mission in Iraq...over and over and over again...for 5 years now! :lol:[/quote]

Victory could have been declared at any given point after Saddam Hussein's ouster. Problem is, there never has been any solid definition of victory in Iraq. Victory in Iraq is like some nebulous cloud that has now floated around the planet thousands of times and looks and smells completely different. Victory in Iraq changes as fast as the weather and to fit the conveniences of the administration.

[quote=Miroslav;583434]So much so that approximately 96% of our servicemen and women deaths have occurred [I]after[/I] our first Mission Accomplishment and Baghdad is still on lock-down right this moment!!! Huzzah! Bravo, Bush![/quote]

Another sad & disturbing fact is that more service people have committed suicide after coming home from Iraq than have died in combat (more than 4000). This is a sad fact that has not been talked of much in the media. The devastation to marriages, families and children from this war will be felt for generations to come. No freedom is not free, but it is also only as expensive as we decide to make it.:x

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=dig72;582970]It's not a war. It's an illegal invasion and occupation of a nation that never threatened the US or it's allies. [/quote]

Other nations should be encouraged to follow the Nuremburg principle (of highest-level resposibility for crimes against peace and crimes against humanity) on this one and hold American political leaders responsible for their crimes against humanity (the genocide in Fallujah, amongst others) and arrest those leaders if they ever set foot inside any foreign country with the intention of their being tried before the Hague. We in the US did this in Nuremburg after WWI when we prosecuted the German foreign minister for crimes carried out during the war.

[quote=dig72;582970]Wtf are Americans teaching their kids?[/quote]

Its that dam home-schooling some right-wing radical Christians are giving their children. No different than radical Islam schooling in madrasas.:roll:

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

^ are you fucking kidding me? I know there are some crackhead christians teaching thier kids in homeschool, but it's predominantly people who think the government, in doing such a shit poor job of everything else, shouldn't be trusted to teach children.

sorry....sore point with me I would homeschool my kid in a heartbeat because public school, and sometimes even private school, hinders true aptitude, and only teaches them what is necessary to pass gov't exams.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=88Mariner;583634]^ are you fucking kidding me? I know there are some crackhead christians teaching thier kids in homeschool, but it's predominantly people who think the government, in doing such a shit poor job of everything else, shouldn't be trusted to teach children.

sorry....sore point with me I would homeschool my kid in a heartbeat because public school, and sometimes even private school, hinders true aptitude, and only teaches them what is necessary to pass gov't exams.[/quote]

By no means was I implicating all parents who home-school, not by a long-shot. I was responding to dig72's question regarding Sightlesses perspective on the war Originally Posted by [B]dig72[/B] [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=582970#post582970"][IMG]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG][/URL] [I]Wtf are Americans teaching their kids?[/I]

My point was there are a minority of home schooling parents on the far right (and I know personally some on the fringe right who do home-school) and perhaps that was where Sightless had been educated. That was my deduction based on his own revelations posted here about the war.

Re: 4000 Dead -- 4 more years?

[quote=CactusBeats;583626][quote] Other nations should be encouraged to follow the Nuremburg principle (of highest-level resposibility for crimes against peace and crimes against humanity) on this one and hold American political leaders responsible for their crimes against humanity (the genocide in Fallujah, amongst others) and arrest those leaders if they ever set foot inside any foreign country with the intention of their being tried before the Hague. We in the US did this in Nuremburg after WWI when we prosecuted the German foreign minister for crimes carried out during the war.[/quote]

Agreed.

What makes me sick, is watching these criminals being given the red carpet treatment by world leaders as if nothing has happened. Especially when it's Arab leaders.

[quote]Its that dam home-schooling some right-wing radical Christians are giving their children. No different than radical Islam schooling in madrasas.:roll:[/quote]

Perhaps. Sometimes I wonder if he's just taking the piss. Not too sure.