I know! I was shocked too:
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7229169.stm[/url]
[ms] · Est. May 2002
Music madethis place,we just kept itgoing...
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Torture in the US
25 durable postsStarted 2008-02-05Latest 2008-03-19
Re: Torture in the US
Beats making a video and cutting someones head off. Well that is a bad comparison. Nobody want to hear it but they have to use some form of torture to get the info out.
Re: Torture in the US
the high and mighty always fall, we are falling because we are so high and mighty.
Re: Torture in the US
tbh, i have no problem that this particular guy got tortured. granted, not what i want our country to be doing, but i would have had a hard time not just shooting that guy in the face when i captured him. i'd say that guy was a piece of crap, but that's not fair to the crap.
Re: Torture in the US
I think this not surprising at all...and to be honest I think its naive to think that the CIA doesn't torture people...of course they do and will continue to do so as will all similar governmental organizations in other countries... I honestly think its a pretty stupid thing to report in the news.
What do people think that they are gonna treat the suspect terrorist and madman nice and give them candy hoping that they will like them and tell them where the next attack is gonna happen...??? Honestly what do people imagine the CIA does?
Re: Torture in the US
^we agree. stop the presses. lol. )
CIA, KGB (now FSB), and the Mossad- HELLO!!!! THEY TORTURE PEOPLE!!! It's just how shit works. Don't report it. This isn't news.
Re: Torture in the US
Lets not forget the beat cops on the street, police and military from all countries all over the world and the secret organisations with acronyms.
They all do it!!! and will continue doing it as long as there are people out there that kill, steal and destroy what fairytale democracy we think we are living in.
Lets face it, its the stupid ones that get caught and have to tell the world.
I laugh at the fact that they only did it to three people - What absolute rubbish!
We need not look for sadistic psychopaths on our streets because they are all over the place in government organisations all over the world.
Re: Torture in the US
The problem is this -- many people who are OK with torture feel this way because there is an assumption that the person who is being tortured is already guilty and had the information at issue. We see shows like 24, where you've got known terrorists who taunt their captors and say things like, "Yeah, I know where the bomb is, it's going to kill thousands of your people, but I'm not telling you where it is."
Let me just say that if we've captured someone who actually professes to have information we can use to save lives and he simply refuses to give it up, I don't think there are many people that would seriously argue with getting that information by any means necessary. The problem, however, is that that isn't how it plays out in the real world.
Imagine you're sitting in a chair having your fingernails ripped out and the only way to make it stop is to provide information -- information you don't have. That's a pretty troubling scenario. Your options at that point are to let it continue or make something up to at least have the pain stop for a little while, until they figure out that you've lied.
Different situations call for different reactions -- but torture being the modus operandi of the United States? You get captured by the US, you can expect to get your ass waterboarded? That's not what we're all about.
Re: Torture in the US
same morals jimbo, different ethical approaches to reaching the moral goals
they arent doing it for fun, but in an attempt to save some lives that, that guy is obviously willing to take. some people would just lock em in a room and let them pray, workout, whatever, people like would start taking thier skin, starting at thier hands working towards to torso.
Re: Torture in the US
[QUOTE=thesightless;566480]some people would just lock em in a room and let them pray, workout, whatever, people like would start taking thier skin, starting at thier hands working towards to torso.[/QUOTE]
Well, framing it like this is part of the problem. People seem to suggest that the only two options are torture and coddling them. There is a spectrum of things that you can do to a person to persuade them to provide information, and what I'm saying is that barring the hypothetical scenario I've discussed above, crossing the line from "harsh interrogation and persuasion" to "torture," both of which are on the same end of the spectrum, isn't justified.
"Harsh interrogation" as permitted under the Geneva conventions can be really, really harsh. What exactly is the point of taking it past that point? Eventually, it becomes either sadistic or punitive.
Re: Torture in the US
theres gonna be some torture tonight!!
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/07/hamza.uk/index.html[/url]
Re: Torture in the US
Dubya veto'd
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/08/bush.torture.ap/index.html[/url]
Re: Torture in the US
I'm just not sure how we draw the line between "really harsh interrogation" and "torture".
Re: Torture in the US
its too vague, and we cant define it.
we should just do what they do over there.
or the US citizens should just begin to advocate "american, pro western terror" i wouldnt mind seeing a few mosques in certain areas get bombed, and god knows i wanted to see mecca get nukes during haaj after 9-11. my feelings have changed since but i did indeed want to see it.
Re: Torture in the US
waterboarding? what' the big fucking deal?
some people treat that shit as a fetish ffs.
(of course, i'm with the majority who say that torture produces no viable information so it shoul be stopped)
Re: Torture in the US
did you guys hear about the eco-terrorists in Seattle and Washington??
[URL]http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977274980&grpId=3659174697241980&nav=Groupspace[/URL]
Now it won't be men in turbans that only get waterboarded.. it will be anyone of us.
Re: Torture in the US
[quote=runningman;576303]did you guys hear about the eco-terrorists in Seattle and Washington??
[URL]http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977274980&grpId=3659174697241980&nav=Groupspace[/URL]
Now it won't be men in turbans that only get waterboarded.. it will be anyone of us.[/quote]
Only if you're an eco-terrorist :p and those guys are complete idiots anyways, so I just might not care :lol:
Re: Torture in the US
Torture is nothing new. What is new is the way news is gathered and reported. As technology expands the world in a sense gets smaller. Now, unlike before, anyone with a camera phone or a PC w/ internet connection can instantly become the "front line" reporter.
Again, torture is nothing new. It is just that now more people are able to see it with their own eyes to be true and not just some "story" that your one crazy uncle that fought in that one war told you about.
Re: Torture in the US
Ok well ofcourse torture is nothing new and i think that alot of pople miss the real picture ... The thing is alot of times the CIA relies on the information given by other intelligence agencies like that of Pakistan or Egypt or Britain or wherever , the whole problem is its just easier to start torturing these people without validation .. There are people that have been locked up in Guantanamo for ages without a reason , there is no real accusation . If you hold up a person for more than 5 years and he doesnt add up to your information anything then why would you be still keeping him .. Did you guys read about that al jazeera reporter who is being held up .. I dont give a shit about al jazeera myself but this guy is just there cause he " might " one day something useful wtf ??!!! You are keeping people just because they might yield info in the future ??!!! well if after you torture them you dint get anything out of them i think this gives you a sign that they dont know anything , or they might even start giving you what you want . According to statistics and research , suspects who undergo severe torture usually just spit out imaginary information for the sake of ending the torture , an example is that sudanese guy who gave info about bin laden and al qaeda after 9/11 , most of what he said was what the CIA wanted to hear and this was found out to be true when they went into Iraq and no WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION were found , then its so easy just to come up and say in a public conference "sorry we had the wrong info" <<<---- this is the big fukin problem ..validate your freakin info before you go around torturing people
Re: Torture in the US
[COLOR=Orange]Oh jeez.. what's next, reports on inhumane use of Stress Positions?[/COLOR]
Re: Torture in the US
still will happen. we just will not know about it.
we live in a day and age where information is so critical. rules are meant to be broken.
as a wise man said "it is only illegal if you get caught".
Re: Torture in the US
Studies have shown that torture does not always produce the truth...People will tell you anything to avoid torture...Does torture make people talk? Yes..Does it make them say what you want to hear, regardless of truth? Yes....
Re: Torture in the US
The Iraq war, yes THE IRAQ WAR, was perpetrated partially because of information gleaned this way. Torture has already cost us plenty. As was already said, torture someone and they will tell you anything to stop. They will probably tell you what you want to hear.
The effect no one is talking about is what torture does to those who perpetrate it/ do it to the victim. The perpetrators (CIA in this case) suffer a high degree of PTSD. It not only hurts the victim but it poisons the perpetrator.
Unreliable intelligence, loss of moral authority, stooping to the terrorists level. I'll say, al-quaida is freeking thrilled they could manipulate our idiot leader into doing all the damage he's done. I bet Osama never thought he could get us to screw everything up this badly. Manipulation. It's part of what effective terrorists do.
Re: Torture in the US
^ the information Powell vaguely state at the notorious UN meeting was information gleaned by torturing an Iraqi.
I think that's what you're referring to.
Re: Torture in the US
yep, that's the one 88.
Seems we no longer learn from our mistakes. .....doomed to......
Thanks