just add it to the list - what an ASS!

Wouldnt want to upset the tobacco industry now would we georgie boy.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

your country is a fiasco how can a president veto almost everything theres not even dialogue with the congress its just a lame republic

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=emuler;532865]your country is a fiasco how can a president veto almost everything theres not even dialogue with the congress its just a lame republic[/quote]

The credibility of your opinion would be greatly enhanced if you first actually took the time to [I]learn[/I] something about our system of government.

Actually, this is only Bush's 4th veto of his entire presidency. That's hardly vetoing "almost everything", it's actually a pretty low number compared to many past presidents (heck, his dad had 10 vetos in his first [I]year[/I]). And Congress can still bypass the veto and make the bill a law with a 2/3rds majority vote.

Presidential veto power is founded in the US Constitution and it is not so simple as to say that it is a "bad thing" just because you disagree with Bush's choice on this issue; the construct as such is an important part of the lasting "checks and balances" structure (i.e., that no one branch of government - judicial, legislative, executive - can completely dominate the others). Google this if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Personally, I'm much more concerned about Bush's use of presidential signing statements than his official veto stamp.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[QUOTE=emuler;532865]your country is a fiasco how can a president veto almost everything theres not even dialogue with the congress its just a lame republic[/QUOTE]

yeah, to echo what Miroslav said, Bush is not exactly known for his veto. He's approved most every spending bill to cross his desk, which IMO is a major departure from the conservative credentials he purported to have when elected back in 2000.

Forget policy and just talking politics, his decision to veto a bill that had been framed in this way, i.e., to provide med. insurance to children, is a horrible idea. Then again, he's running around 32% approval, so who really cares, right?

I keep waiting to reach the point where Bush is functionally irrelevant. For whatever reason (read: the utter incompetnce of the democratic party), he still seems to get what he wants. Can't wait for 2008 to get this whole bunch of folks out of power.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=Miroslav;532876]The credibility of your opinion would be greatly enhanced if you first actually took the time to [I]learn[/I] something about our system of government.

Actually, this is only Bush's 4th veto of his entire presidency. That's hardly vetoing "almost everything", it's actually a pretty low number compared to many past presidents (heck, his dad had 10 vetos in his first [I]year[/I]). And Congress can still bypass the veto and make the bill a law with a 2/3rds majority vote.

Presidential veto power is founded in the US Constitution and it is not so simple as to say that it is a "bad thing" just because you disagree with Bush's choice on this issue; the construct as such is an important part of the lasting "checks and balances" structure (i.e., that no one branch of government - judicial, legislative, executive - can completely dominate the others). Google this if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Personally, I'm much more concerned about Bush's use of presidential signing statements than his official veto stamp.[/quote] limitating the congress in this issue doesn't make me disagree with Mr Bush, it only makes me puke.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

the low number of vetoes probably has more to do with the bush cartel and republican party running everything unchecked for the last 6 years than his actual refusal to use the veto.

he just never needed to before.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=Clodius;533544]the low number of vetoes probably has more to do with the bush cartel and republican party running everything unchecked for the last 6 years than his actual refusal to use the veto.

he just never needed to before.[/quote]

A similar situation was when the Clinton's held office along with the Democratic majority...it runs both ways...

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=guntaro;533781]A similar situation was when the Clinton's held office along with the Democratic majority...it runs both ways...[/quote]

ya totally, i wasn't trying to be party or even country specific.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=Clodius;533858]ya totally, i wasn't trying to be party or even country specific.[/quote]

understood...although I def. lean towards the Libertarian side, I also try to be fair...you have to call it like you see it...

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=emuler;532865]your country is a fiasco how can a president veto almost everything theres not even dialogue with the congress its just a lame republic[/quote]

Our country is actually pretty kick ass...it's our govt. that's a fiasco...my roommate traveled Europe for the past 2 weeks and realized that Europeans (at least the one's he conversed with) love Americans but dislike our govt...I ran into the same thing when I was in Puerto Rico...and I concur with those sentiments...but I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else...it's easy to make a life and a living..bashing an entire country isn't very cool...don't judge an entire people by the policies of their government... :)

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

thread erased by hitler

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=Huggie Smiles;532538]just add it to the list - what an ASS!

Wouldnt want to upset the tobacco industry now would we georgie boy.[/quote] i think the rationale was that he didn't want to federalize medicine and that the bill would go beyond focusing on poor children.

right idea, wrong party. republicans aren't freemarketeers.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=guntaro;533901]Our country is actually pretty kick ass...it's our govt. that's a fiasco...my roommate traveled Europe for the past 2 weeks and realized that Europeans (at least the one's he conversed with) love Americans but dislike our govt...I ran into the same thing when I was in Puerto Rico...and I concur with those sentiments...but I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else...it's easy to make a life and a living..bashing an entire country isn't very cool...don't judge an entire people by the policies of their government... :)[/quote]

im a canadian, and throughout my travels i have always found that most americans are really cool and friendly, unlike the general stereotype they have. i always just chalked it up to the fact that the americans that travel generally are a little more left leaning and more open to new ideas, while the ones that most people think of when thinking of america don't travel so much.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

^^since they're too poor to travel, or for that matter do much really...

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=FM;534560]^^since they're too poor to travel, or for that matter do much really...[/quote]

not saying poor, just saying that i've never actually met a right-wing american in my travels, wether it be in europe or asia (army excluded of course). that's just my experience, couldn't tell you why, but it is the way it is.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=88Mariner;534035]i think the rationale was that he didn't want to federalize medicine and that the bill would go beyond focusing on poor children.

right idea, wrong party. republicans aren't freemarketeers.[/quote]

Why shouldn't children who are slightly above the poverty line have healthcare too!! No one can make a rationale argument against a child having decent healthcare .

It was the tobacco industry that were going to get a hit - adn they cause more healthcare expenditure than (almost) any others - thats the ironic bit!

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

right. well what do you mean by 'slightly'? do you mean three times the poverty level? there's a difference between saying george bush hates kids, and george bush hates middle class kids. it appears that between a quarter and a half of the children that would have been covered would have private insurance already. It's nice to see that bush has at least shown some restraint on expanding this fat bloated american government like he has in the past years.

States are better abled to handle this than the federal government anyways. As there is wide variance on on local values, the local cost of living, and the local health care situations, the government shouldn't be involved at all. And without federal money, there are no federal restrictions.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=88Mariner;535823] And without federal money, there are no federal restrictions.[/quote]

theres merit in that for sure!

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

House fell 13 votes short in overriding the veto.

If the cig tax wasn't so high, this might have a bit of a better chance of passing, even if just barely...getting implemented of course would be a whole nother story :roll:

However, this is also why a nationwide-type health care system won't work and shouldn't be proposed...it really should be up to the states to do their own plans; Massachusetts just started up theirs (in which poor or severely low-class people/children can get care for free, or for next to nothing per month) and other states have similar plans in talks/the works right now.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

the current s chip plan in place covers all the children that need health insurance.

GW is vetoing this shit because of all the other shit thats attached to it.

This bill is one step closer to universal health care. and that scares the piss out of me.

props to Bush for saying no to this crap.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

This whole thing really pisses me off!!!

I am one of those who are not in poverty, but really need this bill. I am a full time college student, married, and I have a four year old son. Right now he is not insured. This is because I make too much to qualify for medicare, but there is not way I can afford health insurance for him and pay my rent and gas to get to work and school. Health insurance at my work to cover my self and my son (my husband not included) would cost me 340.00/month. WTF who can afford that? That is a huge percentage of my monthly pay for a relatively healthy child. Come to think of it the monthly cost of health insurance is more than a trip to the emergency room when he gets sick, and 3 times as much as a visit to the walking clinic, but what if something serious happens - were - he ( an innocent 4 year old) is skrewed because our govvernment would rather bomb brown people halfway accross the globe instead of take care of his own here at home.

FUCK GW!!!!! I hate that bastard sooooo fucking much. He is the heartless anticrist of the predictions of Nostridomous.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=In-SighT;542468]the current s chip plan in place covers all the children that need health insurance.

GW is vetoing this shit because of all the other shit thats attached to it.

This bill is one step closer to universal health care. and that scares the piss out of me.

props to Bush for saying no to this crap.[/quote]

Exactly.

Bills might start off with one intention, but then all of the politicians get their hands on it and add this and that.... money for this cause, money for that.... until the bill doesn't have anything to do with the original intention. You can't even recognize it as the same bill. A clean-air bill turns into school lunches... it's that insane.

Health insurance is expensive. I have to pay $270 per month for my own health insurance. I am single, no children. That's just for me. And I pay it out of my own pocket because I am self-employed. But I pay it gladly because I know that along with it I have access to the best medical care in the world.

A few years ago I was working for a local small business which had a health plan. I paid nothing for it. And the coverage was great. 2 years ago I had a large tumor in my shoulder which we could not identify. The orthopaedist here in Florida wanted to remove it, but feared that in the process he would paralyse my arm. (Tumor was near the axillary nerve) He wanted me to sign a bunch of waivers in case that happened. I told him to fuck off.... and I went to Baltimore and found the best orthopaedic oncologist at Johns Hopkins. She did the surgery and never once mentioned the danger for my arm. Took out the tumor, which was the size of a softball.... it turned out to be a sarcoma. So I had to do radiation treatments for weeks. No chemo, fortunately.

I'm now 2 years out of surgery with no recurrence, so it looks like I am in the clear. And I hardly paid a dime for all of this. My insurance from my job took care of it. After I left the company, I kept the insurance but have to pay for it myself. It's been worth every penny. I can't imagine what my cancer surgery and treatments would have cost me otherwise.

I am so glad I was able to pick my doctor because we have a private health care system. If I had gone with the first doctor I might not be able to lift my left arm today, or ever again. Lucky for me I had the choice of which doctor to use. But in countries with socialized healthcare, this would not have been possible. I would have been assigned to a doctor without a choice. I would have been placed in a line to get the surgery because it wasn't immediately life threatening. (At least at the time) The cancer might have metastasized during the time I would have spent waiting in line for surgery. Sarcomas like the one I had often move into the lungs. So, there's even a possibility I wouldn't be alive today.

The further we stay away from socialized healthcare in this country, the better... as far as I am concerned. I'd rather pay for it myself and have the control.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=subterFUSE;542522]Exactly.

Bills might start off with one intention, but then all of the politicians get their hands on it and add this and that.... money for this cause, money for that.... until the bill doesn't have anything to do with the original intention. You can't even recognize it as the same bill. A clean-air bill turns into school lunches... it's that insane.

Health insurance is expensive. I have to pay $270 per month for my own health insurance. I am single, no children. That's just for me. And I pay it out of my own pocket because I am self-employed. But I pay it gladly because I know that along with it I have access to the best medical care in the world.

A few years ago I was working for a local small business which had a health plan. I paid nothing for it. And the coverage was great. 2 years ago I had a large tumor in my shoulder which we could not identify. The orthopaedist here in Florida wanted to remove it, but feared that in the process he would paralyse my arm. (Tumor was near the axillary nerve) He wanted me to sign a bunch of waivers in case that happened. I told him to fuck off.... and I went to Baltimore and found the best orthopaedic oncologist at Johns Hopkins. She did the surgery and never once mentioned the danger for my arm. Took out the tumor, which was the size of a softball.... it turned out to be a sarcoma. So I had to do radiation treatments for weeks. No chemo, fortunately.

I'm now 2 years out of surgery with no recurrence, so it looks like I am in the clear. And I hardly paid a dime for all of this. My insurance from my job took care of it. After I left the company, I kept the insurance but have to pay for it myself. It's been worth every penny. I can't imagine what my cancer surgery and treatments would have cost me otherwise.

I am so glad I was able to pick my doctor because we have a private health care system. If I had gone with the first doctor I might not be able to lift my left arm today, or ever again. Lucky for me I had the choice of which doctor to use. But in countries with socialized healthcare, this would not have been possible. I would have been assigned to a doctor without a choice. I would have been placed in a line to get the surgery because it wasn't immediately life threatening. (At least at the time) The cancer might have metastasized during the time I would have spent waiting in line for surgery. Sarcomas like the one I had often move into the lungs. So, there's even a possibility I wouldn't be alive today.

The further we stay away from socialized healthcare in this country, the better... as far as I am concerned. I'd rather pay for it myself and have the control.[/quote]

Well it must be nice to have that kind of money...there is no way in hell I can aford it, and rthink that kids should be given a greater chance of receiving healthcare at a lower cost. Things may change in my oersonal situation once I am done with college in 2 years, but until then I cant afford it for him and it breaks my heart. I am not saying every child should have it, I just think they should raise the income level a little to allow people like me who are stuck in the midddle - dont qualitfy for help, but cant afford health insurance. I am not even asking for free health insurance. I think this stuck in the middle shit is the case for just about every married couple where both are working, but not making a whole lot - if this is the case you dont qualify - its impossible - unless we made minimum wage. I kinda feel like I am being punished for being married and both of us being employed. Im wlling to pay something, but I just cant afford my options right now of 340/month. there id no way in hell. something has got to give. weather its a major reform of private insurance, or state sponsered(insurance for children.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

i dont' mean to make light of your situation mesa, but having read a few bills in the last few days, this is probably the least of all of our worries.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=88Mariner;542681]i dont' mean to make light of your situation mesa, but having read a few bills in the last few days, this is probably the least of all of our worries.[/quote]

[FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=white]Yep, because bombing Muslims is more important than giving medical care to our children. But, in all seriousness, this issue is not specific to my family. There are millions of families just like mine with the same issues. I understand many fucked things are happening right now - I do not live under a rock. In fact, my minor is political science with a specialization in international relations-Middle Eastern studies. Nevertheless, this is a thread about Bush's veto of a new child health care program. So, I am engaged in a discussion about that particular subject. If this were a post about Ahmadinejad, or the current situation in Pakistan with Musharraf and Bhutto, or if this was about the United States use of the terrorist group the Mujahidin to gain intelligence about Iran, or the cost of gas, or the recession or economy is entering, or what ever other topic that you claim to be more important than I would have commented on that topic directly. Each of these issues are important in there own right and each will effect us all whether immediately or in the future. Each deserves its own dialogue, and every voice deserves to be heard with out being silenced, as you are attempting to do to me right now. I will not be silenced on this issue. It is too important to my life, my sons life, and the lives of many parents and children of the United States. Moreover, don’t try to sugar coat your comments, that is just plain weak. You did intend to make light of my situation by your comments, in spite of your poor attempt to be diplomatic. [/COLOR][/FONT]

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

I think some of you specifically subter fuse are missing the point...even in countries with socialized health care i.e. the UK you can still have private health care and there are indeed many that do. But by allowing both you assure that this covers the whole population with at least bare essentials. P. S. Props to mesa for studying being a mother and a wife!!! P.P.S. I am also a student of Political Science.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

[quote=Shpira;544626]I think some of you specifically subter fuse are missing the point...even in countries with socialized health care i.e. the UK you can still have private health care and there are indeed many that do. But by allowing both you assure that this covers the whole population with at least bare essentials. P. S. Props to mesa for studying being a mother and a wife!!! P.P.S. I am also a student of Political Science.[/quote] Sweet! Where are you sudying? Thanks btw. Its not easy at all! But, I know the reward at the end of this long road will be deffinately be worth it.

Re: George Bush Hates American Children

Just watched Michael Moore's "Sicko"...its quite good. Raises some decent points on this topic.