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Good news from Iraq!

39 durable postsStarted 2007-04-30Latest 2007-05-07
#41039Post 1 of 39

[quote]there has been a dramatic drop in sectarian violence in Iraq since President Bush began sending more American troops into Baghdad[/quote]YAAAAAY :partypeople:

Oh no wait, here's the full version...

[quote][COLOR=Red]U.S. officials who say[/COLOR] there has been a dramatic drop in sectarian violence in Iraq since President Bush began sending more American troops into Baghdad [COLOR=Red]aren't counting one of the main killers of Iraqi civilians.[/COLOR][/quote]Say what?

[quote] Car bombs and other explosive devices have killed thousands of Iraqis in the past three years, but the administration doesn't include them in the casualty counts it has been citing as evidence that the surge of additional U.S. forces is beginning to defuse tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.[/quote]

And the logic behind this?

[quote]President Bush explained why in a television interview Tuesday. "If the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory," he told TV interviewer Charlie Rose.[/quote]:roll::roll::roll:

[URL]http://www.newsobserver.com/505/story/567684.html[/URL]

#853828Post 2 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

"Albeit nurtured in democracy, And liking best that state republican Where every man is Kinglike and no man Is crowned above his fellows, yet I see, [B]Spite of this modern fret for Liberty[/B], Better the rule of One, whom all obey, Than to let clamorous [B]demagogues[/B] betray Our [I]freedom[/I] with the kiss of anarchy..."

  • Libertatis Sacra Fames
#853863Post 3 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

:lol: :lol: :lol: that's awesome!

Counting all the dead people from car bombs is just what the enemy [I]wants us[/I] to do! Anyone who wants to include those in the death toll clearly Hates Freedom and want Al Quaeda to win!

I am now convinced that there really is absolutely no level beneath which this slimey administration would even hesitate to stoop.

#853887Post 4 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

It seriously hard to imagaine how much bigger a mess the US could have made over this fiasco.

#853898Post 5 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

George Bush and Dick Cheney have turned the world into quite a mess...

#853903Post 6 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

the middle east was a mess way before they were born....

#853904Post 7 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=88Mariner;481502]the middle east was a mess way before they were born....[/quote] yet... we return to the question we all think about....

WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO INVADE IRAQ? lol..you dont have to answer that we all know the "american answer"

#853906Post 8 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

It will be intersting in 20-30 years time so see how history denotes this time period.

#853966Post 9 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=KinKyJ;481395]YAAAAAY :partypeople:

Oh no wait, here's the full version...

Say what?

And the logic behind this?

:roll::roll::roll:

[URL]http://www.newsobserver.com/505/story/567684.html[/URL][/quote]

Wow, just wow. IMO, this has to be the stupidest thing the president has ever said.

#853968Post 10 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=88Mariner;481502]the middle east was a mess way before they were born....[/quote]

it was shit before. since the invasion, it's become diahhrea.

#854096Post 11 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Right guys because them blowing each other up is a direct effect of us being there WAIT WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST SAY?

Them...blowing EACH OTHER up... yeah because of American troops? I think not. It's because they're fucking insane and we'd be much better off carpetbombing the whole fucking country.

#854111Post 12 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^ to quote Diane Kruger in Troy: "You're so young my love..."

Lemme spell it out for you: first you had this d00d with a fat nose and a moustache who kept the shit under control, right? And then you had this d00d fucking the shit up in order to usher the light of other shit, right? But this second d00d didn't have his shit together and now other d00ds are blowing shit up. Savvy or do I have to let this shit run by you a second time? ;)

#854468Post 13 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=White_Hindu;481719]Right guys because them blowing each other up is a direct effect of us being there WAIT WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST SAY?

Them...blowing EACH OTHER up... yeah because of American troops? I think not. It's because they're fucking insane and we'd be much better off carpetbombing the whole fucking country.[/quote]

Incorrect answer my friend, try again.

#854488Post 14 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

:Blazed:

#854491Post 15 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=KinKyJ;481735]^^^ to quote Diane Kruger in Troy: "You're so young my love..."

Lemme spell it out for you: first you had this d00d with a fat nose and a moustache who kept the shit under control, right? And then you had this d00d fucking the shit up in order to usher the light of other shit, right? But this second d00d didn't have his shit together and now other d00ds are blowing shit up. Savvy or do I have to let this shit run by you a second time? ;)[/quote] Yeah, if by control, you mean keeping shit under control by killing the fucking opposition, then yes, he was keeping shit under control. Despite the fact he killed the fucking president of Iraq and usurped his power and then ruled with a completely iron fist and basically made people erect statues of him in his quote unquote honor.

Seriously move to America. BBC is biased as fuck. And in America the news media is liberal as hell. BBC is just skewed.

Yeah I agree Bush is a fucking asshole but I think that actually trying to save Iraq instead of letting it turn into a fucking mysogonist dungeon is a good idea. Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky but I can't think of anything better other than killing everyone there which is incredibly morbid...

#854588Post 16 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

your thinking of killing everyone there? that is to solve this 'problem' or did i misinterpret....

#854687Post 17 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=White_Hindu;482154]Yeah, if by control, you mean keeping shit under control by killing the fucking opposition, then yes, he was keeping shit under control. Despite the fact he killed the fucking president of Iraq and usurped his power and then ruled with a completely iron fist and basically made people erect statues of him in his quote unquote honor.

Seriously move to America. BBC is biased as fuck. And in America the news media is liberal as hell. BBC is just skewed.

Yeah I agree Bush is a fucking asshole but I think that actually trying to save Iraq instead of letting it turn into a fucking mysogonist dungeon is a good idea. Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky but I can't think of anything better other than killing everyone there which is incredibly morbid...[/quote]Trading a dictator keeping muslim extremists under the thumb for a civil war and a playground for Al Quaida... Now do you call that a good deal??? If so, I'll trade your record collection for a pack of gum. Fair enough?

LMAO @ the trying to save Iraq remark!

#854703Post 18 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[QUOTE=White_Hindu;482154]Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky...[/QUOTE]

Steve Martin, Fozzie Bear and Howie Mandel do things that are "kinda wacky." I can think of a number of ways to describe Bush's actions -- raging incompetence, utter buffoonery, reckless bravado, myopian egoism, etc. -- but "kinda wacky" doesn't even scratch the surface.

#854749Post 19 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=White_Hindu;482154]Yeah, if by control, you mean keeping shit under control by killing the fucking opposition, then yes, he was keeping shit under control. Despite the fact he killed the fucking president of Iraq and usurped his power and then ruled with a completely iron fist and basically made people erect statues of him in his quote unquote honor.

Seriously move to America. BBC is biased as fuck. And in America the news media is liberal as hell. BBC is just skewed.

Yeah I agree Bush is a fucking asshole but I think that actually trying to save Iraq instead of letting it turn into a fucking mysogonist dungeon is a good idea. Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky but I can't think of anything better other than killing everyone there which is incredibly morbid...[/quote]

A sad reality is that there are plenty of places in the world that need "saving", and you can't go in and save them. Look at most of the African continent. If the U.S. went in there and overthrew every dictator, occupied the country, and attempted to install a democratic government, what do you think would happen?

Do you think the U.S. could handle the strain? Do you think that the bloodshed would stop and people there would cooperate in forming a democracy? Do you think that the people in those nations would like the U.S. being there and "helping" them? Do you think the rest of the world - nations and terrorists alike - would support what the U.S. was doing?

The correct answer to all of the above is no. Going into countries and "fixing" them just cuz their leaders suck is not a sustainable strategy. Maybe if they overstep their bounds and blitzkrieg Poland...but that's a whole different story.

#854757Post 20 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=toasty;482384]I can think of a number of ways to describe Bush's actions -- raging incompetence, utter buffoonery, reckless bravado, myopian egoism, etc. -- but "kinda wacky" doesn't even scratch the surface.[/quote]

nicely put!

#854784Post 21 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Let's face it, the complete history behind this simply does not enter the public arena. Every time we look under the rug we find a whole stack of older, dirtier rugs beneath it... Most of you probably know that we gave the Saudis & Afghanis military and financial support in the late years of the cold war. Over the following decade, the soviets waged an imprudent war in the region that gradually weakened them to the point of collapse. Unfortunately, Bin Laden continued to receive at least $20Million a year from the CIA for several years after he had stopped fighting communism and had turned his attention to the looming threat of American economic imperialism. And of course that was around the same time that the Bin Laden family financed the 'Arbusto' Oil/Energy company that our minority elected president subsequently ran into the ground.

The point is, almost all of what we see and hear on the news (in ANY country) is propaganda intended to sway public opinion in favor of upcoming political initiatives. I surely don't have to remind anyone that the media in the states is privately owned, and the owners have their own political agendas as well. We don't hear about the back-scratching that goes on internationally among powerful families like the Bush's and Bin Laden's until well after the fact (or invasion as the case may be).

Is all of that bad? Truthfully I'm not sure, I mean it did win the cold war... but because of its clandestined tinkering with foreign politics (as well as flagrant war crimes and blatant civil rights violations), the United States no longer stands as the beacon of liberty and justice it once represented to the oppressed and downtrodden throughout the world. That will have a tremendous cost in terms of credibility, which will likely take several administrations to repair.

Hopefully that'll give all the Faux news viewers a new angle to look at the war on terror from... and a realization that the US doesn't actually care about the tyranical dictators running the third world, since many of them were installed by us to begin with. What's in the best 'National Interest' as the popular term is these days, is to dismantle the economic and industrial capabilities of any nation that might one day pose a threat to our Unilateral policy-making, or better yet pit several of them against one another. The political realities are so incompatible with the self-righteous ideological fluff that we Americans are institutionally trained to believe from a very young age, that people dismiss the possibility and assume it really is a battle between good and evil...:| wake tf up please.

Sorry, I realize I barely touched on the Iraq situation, but neither did the president when convincing the public we needed to invade. All of the significant 'intelligence' they provided about WMD programs turned out to be alarmist nonsense (chem/bio weapons perhaps but that had nothing to do with 9/11, nor did Hussein). Hopefully I can go into greater detail in a later post.

Just because we're an ocean away doesn't mean the news is a damn soap opera, there are real people dying there every day, including innocent men, women and children...what will the survivors think of us? Will the United States be typecast on the global stage? Time will tell, but to the rest of the world: Americans are not all this way. The political experiment called 'America' provides glimpses into the best and worst of human potential, and most of us wrestle with that duality within ourselves on a regular basis. It is a human trait, not solely an American one.

Americans, stop marginalizing and trivializing other cultures and political systems. World, I'm trying over here, don't generalize Americans as brainwashed Imperialists despite the evidence already presented in this thread.

-bt

#854786Post 22 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^ now that's what I call the best first post ever!

#854792Post 23 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

I normally post these in the nonsense thread, but today Cyanide&Hapiness actually belongs here I think...

[URL="http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/ed_bushoil.png"][IMG]http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/ed_bushoil.png[/IMG][/URL]

#855023Post 24 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=WaveSculptor;482477]

Americans, stop marginalizing and trivializing other cultures and political systems. World, I'm trying over here, don't generalize Americans as brainwashed Imperialists despite the evidence already presented in this thread.

-bt[/quote]

did you find your studio equiptment yet?

#855212Post 25 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

One american's viewpoint:

Regardless of whether going into Iraq was the right or wrong thing to do at the time...we had a responsibility to the Iraqi people to give them a better standard of life. This is a responsibility to which we have utterly failed. Such basic necessities, that were available to most prior to the invasion, such as electricity and infrastructure, are still not a regular part of daily life in iraq. The quality of life for the regular iraqi is certainly sub standard to where it was before the invasion, several years later. While Saddam may have ruled with an Iron first, at least people were able to meet the basic tenets of "normal" living. Ie, they didn't have to worry that their neighbors might storm their house and execute them in their beds. People who are happy with their way of life, who have shelter, food, opportunties to work, move about and live in safety don't readily go around killing each other. It's our failure as a country to provide these basic tenets of normal life to the Iraqi people that is largely responsible for the troubles we now see. For this I am asahmed to be american.

I believe that americans have prided themselves over the past generations on that fact that others could turn to us in times of need. But on these past occasions, we helped those who were in jeapordy of losing the prinicples that we as a nation hold most dear, or at least used to, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And in the past, we waited until we were asked for help, when the poeple of a country cried out for assistance (read WWI and WWII). I don't remeber anyone asking us to invade Iraq. In fact , it is these very three ideals, the ones we hold above all else, that we are actively depriving from the Iraqi people. We have fucked it up to the point that there is no option but for things to get worse. Its too late for us the be the good guys anymore.

We as a country rebelled against the British for far less than what we have inflicted upon the Iraqi people. It's this individual American's opinion that the only way for Iraq to survive is for the people to unite against us and forcefully drive us from their country. Us just leaving will clearly sink the country into civil war. But if they unite against us, rally together in achieving a common goal, the country might be saved.

#855318Post 26 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.

#855357Post 27 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[QUOTE=threehills;482943] We as a country rebelled against the British for far less than what we have inflicted upon the Iraqi people. It's this individual American's opinion that the only way for Iraq to survive is for the people to unite against us and forcefully drive us from their country. Us just leaving will clearly sink the country into civil war. But if they unite against us, rally together in achieving a common goal, the country might be saved.[/QUOTE]

I can tell that your thoughts come from a good place. With that said, I have a few thoughts...

  1. They are already embroiled in a civil war. Whether we stay or go isn't going to change that. Shias are fighting Sunnis, Sunnis are fighting Shias, and perhaps most importantly, both groups are targeting us. I haven't the foggiest what our end game even is any more. Stay or go, we're now at a point where the Iraqis clearly have to figure this out for themselves. There's nothing more we can do.

  2. I don't think we have an obligation to serve as targets for the Iraqis until they "rally together" and experience the good feeling of forcibly kicking us out of their country.

  3. I don't think the Sunnis and Shias owe any allegiance to Iraq whatsoever, nor do I think they have any interest in uniting for any purpose.

#855364Post 28 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=Bululu;483060]^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.[/quote]

america now exports security? and it generally goes to the highest bidder?

#855386Post 29 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=Bululu;483060]^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.[/quote]

Clearly you missed my point. I tried to say that the Iraqi people didn't ask for our "help" and that they were much better off pre invasion, esentially what you are saying but without all the question marks and arm flailing.

#855389Post 30 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=toasty;483100]I can tell that your thoughts come from a good place. With that said, I have a few thoughts...

  1. They are already embroiled in a civil war. Whether we stay or go isn't going to change that. Shias are fighting Sunnis, Sunnis are fighting Shias, and perhaps most importantly, both groups are targeting us. I haven't the foggiest what our end game even is any more. Stay or go, we're now at a point where the Iraqis clearly have to figure this out for themselves. There's nothing more we can do. [/quote]

Agreed, I don't know what can possibly be done to remedy the situation at this point.

[quote] 2. I don't think we have an obligation to serve as targets for the Iraqis until they "rally together" and experience the good feeling of forcibly kicking us out of their country. [/quote]I don't think we have an obligation either by any means nor do I think it will ever happen, but nothing unites like a common hatred. IE, the whole country hoping to see the Yankee's lose.

[quote]3. I don't think the Sunnis and Shias owe any allegiance to Iraq whatsoever, nor do I think they have any interest in uniting for any purpose.[/quote]Also agreed. The one solution that does seem to make some sense, at least to me, is dividing iraq into smaller countries, each group having their "share". I believe Sightless outlined this whole plan in another post. Apparently this is how they mediated the problem is Yugoslavia. Forgive me if thats the wrong country.

#855413Post 31 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Lets not forget that the terroists attacked us first. (dont forget they bombed wtc in 1993, and the uss cole)

Dont get me wrong, it was the wrong idea to invade iraq especially with no hard evidence......... but we did invade and our soldiers are trying there best to provide them with a safe democracy...the troops deserve more respect.

but time is running out imo...its a tough deal bcuz if we do leave...the violence wil multipy expodentially. and iraq will be the headquaters for terror. the world will be changed and freedom will be lost.

#855433Post 32 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=Bululu;483060]^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.[/quote]

Wow, you completely missed the point of his post. You're just raving and ranting without even understanding what people are trying to say.

#855438Post 33 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[B][COLOR=red]Sorry threehills, my mistake[/COLOR][/B], but seriously , i am sick of people trying to give a meaning to this invasion , what has Iraq todo with the attacks on the US ??? if any country should have been targeted it should be Saudi Arabia who started all this fundamentalist ideology and tried to implement in many other Arabic countries ( Egypt, Alegeria for example) before Al Qaeda could stand alone of its feet.

The war is worng and you can ask in Iraqi which era do they prefer? the pre or post Saddam ?

#855458Post 34 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[QUOTE=chuckc;483161] but we did invade and our soldiers are trying there best to provide them with a safe democracy...the troops deserve more respect. [/QUOTE]

Whoa, whoa, whoa -- who said anything about not respecting the troops?!?!?!?!? Sorry dude, but this is my hot button. Supporting our troops and supporting this boondoggle of a war are two entirely different things, and I thought we were beyond this ridiculous notion that they were the same. Matter of fact, if anyone is disrespecting the troops, its the architects of this war who have placed them in the midst of an ever-growing maelstrom with no idea what they were going to do when they got there. I have fucking had it with the handful of Bush apologists out there who still insist that it is unpatriotic to question the war.

[QUOTE=chuckc;483161] Lets not forget that the terroists attacked us first. (dont forget they bombed wtc in 1993, and the uss cole) ... but time is running out imo...its a tough deal bcuz if we do leave...the violence wil multipy expodentially. and iraq will be the headquaters for terror. the world will be changed and freedom will be lost.[/QUOTE]

Been watching Fox News, perchance? FFS, you've managed to hit all the talking points at once... :roll: :roll: :roll:

#855948Post 35 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^ I would say I support the troops, however even I'm reaching my end in terms of 'supporting the troops'. If there's anything Milgrim, Hitler, Pinochet, Stalin, and Mao have taught us, it's blind obedience. IMO, soldiers need to start to wake up and address the real issues rather than sitting there dumbfounded with the typical common reply of 'protecting freedoms.' Of course, the issue of soldier's questioning authority is illegal (according to military statutes) however, blind obedience is very deadly, and I'm sure many people who have lived through those eras know the devastation that blind obedience can cause.

#856048Post 36 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=Localizer;483751]^ I would say I support the troops, however even I'm reaching my end in terms of 'supporting the troops'. If there's anything Milgrim, Hitler, Pinochet, Stalin, and Mao have taught us, it's blind obedience. IMO, soldiers need to start to wake up and address the real issues rather than sitting there dumbfounded with the typical common reply of 'protecting freedoms.' Of course, the issue of soldier's questioning authority is illegal (according to military statutes) however, blind obedience is very deadly, and I'm sure many people who have lived through those eras know the devastation that blind obedience can cause.[/quote]

I'd say it's just not within the nature of a society's military function to start selectively questioning which orders they will accept and which they will refuse. You just wouldn't have much of a military if that were the case. Soldiers are trained to destroy stuff and kill people when and where their leaders tell them to. That's their job description. The whole system [I]has [/I]to function under the premise is that if their leader gives them the command, then that command is in fact based on the best and most legitimate interest of "protecting freedoms".

The people who really need to do the waking up are the rest of us - the overwhelming majority at whose ultimate behest the soldiers do their jobs, and the ones with the voting power to elect people into office who wield the responsibility of military might appropriately.

#856159Post 37 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=Miroslav;483859]I'd say it's just not within the nature of a society's military function to start selectively questioning which orders they will accept and which they will refuse. You just wouldn't have much of a military if that were the case. Soldiers are trained to destroy stuff and kill people when and where their leaders tell them to. That's their job description. The whole system [I]has [/I]to function under the premise is that if their leader gives them the command, then that command is in fact based on the best and most legitimate interest of "protecting freedoms".

The people who really need to do the waking up are the rest of us - the overwhelming majority at whose ultimate behest the soldiers do their jobs, and the ones with the voting power to elect people into office who wield the responsibility of military might appropriately.[/quote]

I concur, however, our soldiers need to understand the difference between fighting a war and fighting for interests. The fall of many great empires was due in part to extending armed forces beyond their capabilities. To think of countrymen as robots is scary; I can only imagine what they would be like if martial law was proliferated throughout the country. Could you stand eye-to-eye, face-to-face in front a soldier and question his/her authority then?

Secondly, whether we vote or not is of no importance because the government will move in the way they see fit. They do it by inches though, rather than by feet, slowly creeping over our lines.

In the end, I think many have woken up; it's that only a few want to take action. Of course I'll be eating my words as I'll be taking up a clandestine new job with a market that I squint my eyes at.

#856774Post 38 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

[quote=Localizer;483751]If there's anything Milgrim, Hitler, Pinochet, Stalin, and Mao have taught us, it's blind obedience. IMO, soldiers need to start to wake up and address the real issues rather than sitting there dumbfounded with the typical common reply of 'protecting freedoms.' Of course, the issue of soldier's questioning authority is illegal (according to military statutes) however, blind obedience is very deadly, and I'm sure many people who have lived through those eras know the devastation that blind obedience can cause.[/quote]

I sorta agree, sorta disagree. I think you would have a totally valid arguement if the leadership were asking our troops to lead the iraqi population into the gas chambers. However, the soldiers in reality are not being asked to do anything above or beyond what one would consider "normal" soldiering. Patroling, egnaging in firefights, gathering intelligence, policing occupied areas. Sure they risk their lives every day, but is that not part of the job description?

What if a police officer was like, "well this whole war on drugs thing really isn't working out so hot. It's not worth me risking my life to take down this dope dealer, so I'm just gonna go get a donut instead."

If you allowed a solidier to question the "why" behind every order, the military would collapse.

#856806Post 39 of 39

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Some of the troops are nice lower-middle-class American kids trying to get professional training or pay for tuition that their families could never afford. Others are aspiring politicians putting in their military service for PR purposes down the road. Still others are racist bastards who got tired of their video games and decided to try blowing away some real people for a change. There is a complex social dynamic where you have some soldiers performing genuine humanitarian efforts, while others are doing the kinds of things that make America look like the land of imperialist bigots. Both are happening every day, providing the world's media with ample opportunity to portray the conflict in whichever light they prefer.

Our troops... Some of them are heroes who deserve our respect. Some of them are neutral bodies in uniform, awaiting transfer back to their homes and families. Some of them are terrorists themselves, Others worse.

All things considered, I say bring them home and develop a support program to assist the area's political refugees in surviving or escaping the ensuing civil war. We've already funnelled billions into the coffers of our development firms, we've already built trans-national pipelines in an attempt to secure economic footholds in the region...It's time to stop tinkering with their government and let them create their own, like we did. If we truly care about democracy, it really is the least we can do..

Thx for the 1st post nomination J 8) just wish I could have been on top of this 5 years ago. I could feel it happening and watched in amazement & horror... yet there was nothing I could do...I for one am ashamed.

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