[CENTER][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=white]Discuss whether a coherent national identity can exist within nation states that contain larger ethnic minority groups. Should it be a cause for concern if a coherent national identity cannot exist in ethnically diverse nation states?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/SIZE] [LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=white]Just wanted to share the title of my private piece of hell in for tomorrow![/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT] [/CENTER]

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Ouch, considering your roots that's a friggin' minefield. It's got Kosova all over it...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

^^^ don't you worry my good Albanian friend...I am a long time student of the exact science of politics and i can swim with the sharkies quite well by now...so i don't tend to fall into the nationalism traps...:what ....but I will publish my masterpiece here tomorrow so you can give it a quick read if you wish...;)

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

My girl is Albo, I'm Belgian ;)

Looking fwd to reading it, yeah. Finally something else than bs about Iraq/Iran and US politics.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Oh ok fair enough sorry...I thought you were one of us racially/nationally handicapped lucky you!:D

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Where is it bro...interested in reading it as I'm an African Studies student...enthicity concept is very alive for me ;)

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

[CENTER][B][U][FONT=Times New Roman]Discuss whether a coherent national identity can exist within nation states that contain larger ethnic minority groups. Should it be a cause for concern if a coherent national identity cannot exist in ethnically diverse nation states?[/FONT][/U][/B][/CENTER]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]In order to address the question at hand we must first truly understand and clarify the main actor i.e. nation. A nation is [/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn1"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][1][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“…a social collectivity, the members of which share some of the following: a sense of common identity, a history, a language, ethnic or racial origins, religion, a common economic life, a geographical location and a political base.”[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Therefore if there is no common/national identity there is quite possibly no nation, as one of the important elements is missing. [/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]National identity could be described in a similar way as the nation itself, as national identity is made up of characteristics shared by the “social collectivity”. [/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]States as the main actors in international relations are most often defined using the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States (1933) according to which states must have the following qualifications: “a permanent population, a defined territory and a government who is capable of maintaining effective control over its territory and of conducting international relations with other states”.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]A problem arises when a state has large ethnic minority groups as they may often feel disassociated as they share very little “national identity” with the state they are in and this causes certain concerns such as lack of loyalty (it may be felt that they are loyal to their mother states rather than the current state they reside in) and legality (should they be forced to abandon their customs and assimilate or allowed to keep customs at the risk of loyalty and racial tension) to come up. Further more if the ethnic groups are allowed to keep their national identity a state may end up torn apart between the different ethnic groups as no single group may be large enough to claim statehood. For any nation to function effectively the majority of the members of that state i.e. the citizens must support the government in order to give it legitimacy e.g. recently there have been many discussions on the single issue of traditional Muslim head scarf’s, chief justice Ahmed (first Muslim chief justice in UK) claims that head scarf’s are creating an unwanted barrier between those who wear them and the non Muslim population[COLOR=red]. [/COLOR]This is an example of minority groups refusing to change customs and as a result are in a way forced to do so by the state i.e. the courts.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Therefore ethnic minorities could be a possible problem for the coherent national identity; however migration on large scale has only been taking place in the last 100 or so years so these issues have not yet shown their true implications. This is an ongoing experiment designed to test the future of nation states in their traditional form. The EU can be seen as a guide for potential solutions i.e. supranational governments in which there is little or no room for nationalist ideas.[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]If there is NO national identity in a singled out nation (not in a supranational organization) then that may cause a serious problem such as the end of the nation (unless all citizens are highly politically educated). Citizens must have a feeling of nationality in order to support the govt in both direct and indirect ways, for if they all refuse to pay taxes for an example or just all refuse obedience to the govt of the state would be non existent. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]National self-determination is one of the main issue’s that need be considered, if a coherent national identity of some kind does not exist in a state, as ethnic minorities/groups can attempt a claim of independence on its basis.[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The Ideas behind national self-determination are that basically each group of people, which inhabit a space of land with a culture and tradition of their own, can freely choose their political status and develop as a separate nation. This was set out in the 1960’s General Assembly Declaration:”[/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn2"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][2][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]…’all peoples have the right to national self-determination’ and thus membership of international society but also ‘the further continuation of colonialism…is a crime which constitutes a violation of the Charter of the United Nations’.” [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]National self determination first appeared at the turn of the 19th century; the president of the United States included it in as one of his 14 points which were meant to prevent future wars, it was also mentioned in the rival idea presented by Marx and Engel. However, unlike Wilson, Marx recognised:[/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn3"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][3][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]”…that capitalist internationalism would be followed by…nationalism and greater likelihood of systematic war”, this idea was later adopted and edited by Lenin to a certain extent. Essentially it means that through self determination of nations, wars are an inevitable occurrence as factions and ethnic groups will fight for disputed land and resources as [/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn4"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][4][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“…the characteristic of principle of nationalism is ‘national self-determination’.”[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Therefore it has recently been recognised that self-determination should not play such a vital role in the creation of new nations as it will more likely than not cause conflict and instability: “[/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn5"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][5][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]In the early 1990’s, perhaps for the first time, rational observers irrespective of politics…began publicly to propose the abandonment of ‘the right to self-determination’.” This was directly seen in the break up of Yugoslavia, where each of the states of the former nation fought against one another in a bloody war which caused a great instability in the region and the eventual disintegration of the nation, effects of which are still felt today.[/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]When studying recent history it becomes clear that goals of independence are far more complex than first set out in the UN charter or later in Wilson’s 14 points. Fragmentation and civil war of current nations becomes a grim possibility as there are many more nations than states. There are furthermore nationalities scattered across sovereign states such as the Kurds or the Basques. These cases pose a difficult problem and a threat for nations to resolve especially with the increase in militancy (terrorism) of these ethnic minorities within nations. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Even within politically stable nations there are always issues which endanger the national identity; nationhood against statehood is an issue which can be associated with many of today’s mayor countries. In Britain there are issue’s such as England vs. Scotland i.e. northerners against the southerners and in Germany there is a large mentality difference between those in the south and those in the north…the southerners are perceived as boring while the north is crazy i.e. too progressive and anti-traditional. This however is not seen as a serious cause for concern as over time those member states e.g. Bavaria, England have learned to work in the national interest rather than state i.e. Germanys and Great Britain’s.[/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It is important that the nation lives inside the mind of its citizens. For them to feel they belong as a part of it and it as a part of them. The nation is an imagined community as most of its citizens do not know one another and have most likely never seen one another as such it is important for all of its citizens to feel a loyalty towards the nation in order to function as an effective community. This is achieved through the use of traditions and set practices which reaffirm the sovereignty of the nation. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The issue of fragmentation however does have the potential become worse as minorities enter countries at a higher rate due to better transport and globalization enters homes, worldwide governments will face a problem. Although ethnic minorities are forced by the government of the nation they reside in to follow the law they are not forced to change traditions and cultural/moral values and a high number of ethnic minorities who have failed to assimilate/adapt and choose to keep their cultural values could cause a loss of national identity to a certain degree:[/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn6"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][6][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]”…the more globalization intensifies, the fiercer will be the pockets of resistance to its intrusive sway.” It can be furthermore argued with some conviction that globalization is the tool of nationalism:[/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn7"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][7][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]”Giddens sees nationalism as being promoted by…globalization. Technology links up all parts of the globe and compresses time and space, but at the same time unleashes…forces of opposition to this process…nationalism is a significant force resisting globalization but being pulled by its wake.” [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]This would seem contradictory as Globalisation is often seen (theoretically) as the force ridding the world of cultural differences and promoting unity for prosperity. The reality is somewhat more complex [/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn8"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][8][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“…increasingly global nature of economic and cultural activity has promoted supranational political initiatives such as the EU, but it has also inspired cultural resistance to globalism, which has entrenched nationalist politics in Britain just as it has in Iraq.” Although people of different ethnic backgrounds [/SIZE][/FONT][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn9"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][9][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]“…are often set in the same states and intermingle in countless ways; these things render the prospect of exemplifying a single national identity implausible in the extreme.” Therefore in practice there is little need for nationalism as global capitalism is at work and arguably states of people do not have a rational need for a nation or wishing a nation of their own as they more likely than not have the exact same rights as they would in their own nation and in addition they have many benefits of a larger state e.g. being part of the E.U., having a stronger economy or having a larger military force. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Essentially large minority groups in a nation do not necessarily signal the end of a coherent national identity. Just as states can function together as a coherent nation so can ethnic minorities as citizens in a state. However they must accept the sovereign rule of the nation and attempt to accept the values and the identity of the nation they live in. They must in a way give their loyalty to the nation they reside in rather than to the nation that they ethnically belong to. This is not always the case and in these cases the govt of the nation may have a possible cause for concern as it may face instability of some kind as these minorities will most likely attempt to promote their own national interests and in more extreme cases even civil wars are possible. [/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It is has become increasingly recognised by academics world wide that the face of globalization will also be followed by fragmentation as a contradictory bi-product of globalization itself which will lead to both shrinking and increasing the gap between nations and states:[/FONT][/SIZE][URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37933#_ftn10"][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#800080][10][/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]”…future politics will be shaped by the contradictory, but interrelated, forces of globalization and fragmentation.”[/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]There are many examples of nation-states functioning in unity and with a kind of coherent national identity even though they have large ethnic minority groups, the prime example of this would be the US. The United States have more than 200 million people living there and most of them are of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds but they all unite behind the ideas that bind them all i.e. national interests such as anti terrorism, wars, taxes and freedom. Further more America as a quite young nation-state, with practically no native population (the red Indians are very few in numbers and even less in power), has very little real identifiable national identity; however for these reasons the so called national identity is constantly reaffirmed through the use of flags symbols, national anthems (pledging allegiance to the flag). This is seen as necessary in order for the state to function effectively even though in reality different parts of the US are extremely different from one another in tradition, culture and politics. [/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]So it is perhaps more difficult for a state to function with a minority population but it is not impossible and as for national identity it is extremely important for a nation-state to reaffirm if it wishes to maintain power.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Word count 1985[/SIZE][/FONT]

[U][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Bibliography[/FONT][/SIZE][/U]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Ian Clark (2002), [I]Globalization and Fragmentation[/I], OUP[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Barrie Axford, Gary K. Browning, Richard Huggins, Ben Rosamond (2002),[I]an introduction to Politics,[/I] Routledge[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Eric Hobsbawm (1999), [I]Age of the Extremes, The Short Twentieth century 1914-1991[/I], Abacus[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Scott Burchill, Richard Devetak, Andrew Linklater, Matthew Paterson, Christian Reus-Smit and Jacqui True (2001), [I]Theories of International Relations[/I], Palgrave[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Baylis and Smith (1999), [I]The Globalization of World Politics[/I], OUP[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Graham Evans and Jeffrey Newnham (1998),[I]the Penguin Dictionary of International Relations[/I], Penguin Reference Books[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]-[/SIZE] [SIZE=3]K.J. Holsti (1995), [I]International Politics, [/I]Pearson Education[/SIZE][/FONT]

The master piece...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

copied and pasted it, will give it a read later today ;-)

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

same here...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

you mak some good points ... let me ask you ... ina country like US .. where imigrant groups grow larger by the day .. do you think this minorities will be able to reach a point in which they will rise against ( or at least an attempt to ) the government ?

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

no, actually ill go as far to say never. ask the immigrAnts to the US. i.e. peloquin and others. frankly, as much as the lib whino's cry about things like the patriot act and phone surveillance, it isnt nearly as bad as anyone says, and frankly, outside of legal drugs and socialised medicine, this place is the leader in social and economic freedoms. and in the end, even with the people who i speak to, we are all just americans. and this incorporates people from pakistan, aghanistan, india, china, japan, korea, south america, europe... once you're here, you realize, no one cares where you are from. just dont push unwanted beleifs and dont impede my life and you are fine. its the idiots who get the ire.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

^^^ social freedoms? LMAO, like what???

And nobody in the US cares where you from because there are only two countries in the American mind: the US and the rest.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Social freedoms my ass, you're free as long as you're a lover of the free market and don't care about other people, AND as long as you know how to suck the hardline Christian's dicks. You are alright Sean, but I see a totally different American than you I guess...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Yeah but why do you think the US gets such a hard on for their flag??? No other country not even Britain (a country that once had the largest empire) has such a fanatical devotion to its flag! Its because America is made up of immigrants who have absolutely nothing in common and this idea that America has given something to them is all bullshit...you see these young Mexicans and Portoricans fighting in Iraq because America has given so much to them...bullshit...I really didn't want to get into this and I knew that this would end up in some sort of argument about the US...I don't really have a grudge against any country in particular it just pisses me of how the US is soooooooo fucking patriotic...but tell me this whats the difference between that so called patriotism and nationalism??? The US now days has all the fucking trademarks of an empire... P.S. the US may have social freedoms compared to places like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and N.Korea but compared to Europe...no...none really.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

thats too bad for the both of you then. here, no one cares. its that simple. the non US world only sees things like the anti-immigration news, hardline vocal people with asinine opinions, and stupid politics. most people here, are simply american, and couldnt give a shit. it isnt US and everyone else. maybe because your anti american media says so, but that is hardly the truth. for every GW2 and pat robertson, there are a few million people just the opposite.

and im sick of the point, so say it jan, what social freedoms dont we have outside of drugs and medical?

and last time i looked, it was europe who was pondering things like immigration quotas to certain countries, britian has the most intense civilian surveillance on the planet, more racial tension than here....

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

^^^ how about prostitution, topless beaches, ... (just staying in my sphere of interest :mrgreen: )

patriotism is politically correct nationalism imo, nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

freedom of speech, freedom of association...but hey got the right to bear arms...I wonder how many of your fellow Americans have actually read the constitution and I wonder how many of those with an IQ above 80 think that the US today is what the founding fathers intended it to be...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

shpira, did you bother to ask why so many "mexican and puerto ricans" are in iraq?

because they come here poor, looking for oppurtunity, and the youth who cannot afford a private collegiate education get it paid for by the military. its a huge incentive for someone loooking learn a trade at an extremely high lvl, but cant pay for it themselves. the mliitary academies that they are permitted to attend are great universities, and the on the job training is tops.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

we have hookers in certain places, topless beaches as well.

speech and association are covered a well. again, it isnt our countries with laws preventing controversial views like holocost denial.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

no patriotism is supposed to be love for your country where as nationalism is thinking your shit doesn't stink...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

[QUOTE=thesightless;449965]shpira, did you bother to ask why so many "mexican and puerto ricans" are in iraq?

because they come here poor, looking for oppurtunity, and the youth who cannot afford a private collegiate education get it paid for by the military. its a huge incentive for someone loooking learn a trade at an extremely high lvl, but cant pay for it themselves. the mliitary academies that they are permitted to attend are great universities, and the on the job training is tops.[/QUOTE]

See...you just said it. REAL freedom is the ability to make it outside of the army, in normal society. You say there's less racism in the US, I say there may even be more, be it latently. What the fuck is freedom if you need to go into the army to get something done?

At present there are more ethcnic tensions in Europe than in the US, and for once I do agree that Europe could learn a great deal from the US when it comes to integration. The other side it that the tension is mostly focused on the Muslim minorities (except in France, there it's just foreign youths in general), because we are kinda very close to that area. Nevertheless my country now has 2 Islamic deputies of state in the Govt (or state secretaries, need to confirm). They are fully integrated, and I trust them more than some of my native Dutch representatives :D

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

man freedom of speech and association my ass...You are living in an illusion I have nothing more to say...In the 60's the US prosecuted people and killed on the basis that they are communists now it does the same the label has just changed...

The US as a country is the biggest load of bullocks so many lies told and people still believe... As for the poor Mexicans what has American given to them that is so valuable that they should go to war where "their" govt. will give them depleted uranium shells to use and then when they get ill from them say its due to normal background radiation...then they get home don't have a health care system and god knows the army will not help them so fuck it they'll die and no one will remember...we can always get a whole other bunch of retards and even though they are not old enough to drink we'll gear them up and ship them of to kill and when they go fucking insane and torture and kill civilians...oh well we'll cover that up to fuck it...its darkies killing darkies anyway... thats the US for you in short...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Yao, Shitpira, have either one of you been to the US? Excuse me here as i don't have time to sit and wait for your dumbass answer, i'm guessing, NO, in which case, stfu about what you think you know. I'm pretty tired of being painted as a dumbass american who can't read, doesn't have any freedom, and doesn't give a shit about anyone, and ohhh, i'm being lied to, blah blah blah. The only people i don't give a shit about, are idiots who stereotype an entire group of people based on what they "heard" or what they think they know. It's really disgusting tbh.

I've been to your country, now you come to mine, and i'll show you a different America than the one your sucking off the end of the media's cock.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

[quote=Shitpira;449981]man freedom of speech and association my ass...You are living in an illusion I have nothing more to say...In the 60's the US prosecuted people and killed on the basis that they are communists now it does the same the label has just changed...

The US as a country is the biggest load of bullocks so many lies told and people still believe... As for the poor Mexicans what has American given to them that is so valuable that they should go to war where "their" govt. will give them depleted uranium shells to use and then when they get ill from them say its due to normal background radiation...then they get home don't have a health care system and god knows the army will not help them so fuck it they'll die and no one will remember...we can always get a whole other bunch of retards and even though they are not old enough to drink we'll gear them up and ship them of to kill and when they go fucking insane and torture and kill civilians...oh well we'll cover that up to fuck it...its darkies killing darkies anyway... thats the US for you in short...[/quote]

lol@ that whole post. you're an idiot. jesus, did bululu create an alias? way to stereotype and simplify. you don't know shit about the US. It would be a waste of my time to tell you differently, because you still wouldn't get it, so i won't bother.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

yao, are you kidding me?

they indeed have the option to pursue education without the military aid. but it is at the public institutions, and for minimal money, the highest tutition for a public uni here is 6K a year in cali, and 3.5K for NY, cheaper in most other areas. but the military is guaranteed training and job with pay, so for the bottom tier of income, it is there so they can attain a higher lvl of education/job training than from a public institution.

shpira, you really dont have a clue and have a vengence against this place. you are targeting an extremely small portion of people and making it sound like it is how the whole palce works. i dont see a homeless person in london and say "wow, the UK really ignores thier poor" beause a small segment of society is in severe distress. stop beleiveing all the "america is evil" hype. ask someone who actually lives here instead of relying on a reporter or commentator with an agenda. if you dont beleive me, go ask em.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

ask jenks, who, ( and no offense jenks), lives is what outsiders deem the deep heart of america, i.e. republican territory, the heartland, middle america and every other stereotype liberal cunts call the region, on what life is really like, cuz hey, im in NYC, and we have it all here. so ask him, is it really nothing but white people who are in the KKK and attend mass every day?

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Its nothing personal...I can write a book on all the things that are wrong with the US and yes I have been there (Florida)...I simplified my argument purposely not to get bogged down in shit YOU as Patriot don't know about YOUR own country...I am perfectly satisfied with this outcome I am an Idiot and you live and love USA, OK...thats fine with me.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

Yeah I generally think of the east coast being quite nice and if I had to live somewhere in the US it would be New York most likely...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

you arent an idiot, i never said that, so stop being sensitive. i just want some reasoning on why you think we live in communist america.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

[quote=thesightless;449958]thats too bad for the both of you then. here, no one cares. its that simple. the non US world only sees things like the anti-immigration news, hardline vocal people with asinine opinions, and stupid politics. most people here, are simply american, and couldnt give a shit. [/quote]

Spot on.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

you didn't jenks did...i don't think you live in a communist america...I said the US killed so called communists 40 years ago (there is a famous case of a couple that took the fifth when asked if they were communists... they were killed as traitors their last name is something Jewish and began with an R can't exactly remember) and now you do the same for so called terrorists they can't take the fifth and if they do its of to Guantanamo bay for them... so where is your freedom then? its like Nazi Germany!

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

[quote=Shitpira;449992]Its nothing personal...I can write a book on all the things that are wrong with the US and yes I have been there (Florida)...I simplified my argument purposely not to get bogged down in shit YOU as Patriot don't know about YOUR own country...I am perfectly satisfied with this outcome I am an Idiot and you live and love USA, OK...thats fine with me.[/quote]

again, you're missing the entire point, which isn't surprising. I know about my own country - you don't. I don't love the USA and i'm not this big flag waving hoorah american that you think the entire country consists of. i really don't give a fuck. Check this chief, there are 300million people here, but you've been to florida, so excuse me, you're the expert on how we live now. :roll:

Put the newspaper down and do your own research.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

[quote=Shpira;449998]so where is your freedom then? its like Nazi Germany![/quote]

now i'm a nazi. :roll:

nice one dude, you're hitting for the cycle.

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

No...I actually quite liked florida...as I said the east coast generally is OK...I know there are 300 million of US citizens and most of them vote and they elect a govt...now ok they were cheated the first time, what happened the second? therefore most Americans ARE flag waving idiots when it comes down to it, otherwise Bush wouldn't be in power..

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

im an inmigrant myself, been here for 8 years now, the way i see it capitalism is whats holding up everything together here in the states, thats why nobody says nothing .. as long as you get your paycheck and pay your taxes everybody could care less where your from ...............

about the crazy flag people and all the shit you see on tv is just propaganda

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

See I criticize your govt and you find yourself insulted...if you can't separate the two than I really can't help you man...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

:suicide:

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

How many of your neighbors or friends own a flag? How many have it on display?? That the only point I am making...I know very few people that own flags of any countries...unless they are football fans or some shit like that...

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

fuck it its really not worth it...I don't care you live there not me... ta..ta..

Re: Fuc^ing hell...

dont use futbol and shit in the same sentence pliz