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[ms] · Est. May 2002

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the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

42 durable postsStarted 2007-01-12Latest 2007-01-18
#36973Post 1 of 42

[URL]http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/12/house.medicare.ap/index.html[/URL]

go go go

get this fucking bill passed PLEASE> the country needs it. the people require it. its morally right. the only thing will be hurt here is a few companies that already have asinine profit margins.

and to GWwho.

shut the fuck up on this subject. you are rocking our economy and job sector, fucking up your stupid war, so you have good and bad, but on this one.... you are just being stupid on behalf of your cronies.

#788037Post 2 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[QUOTE=thesightless;433108][URL]http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/12/house.medicare.ap/index.html[/URL]

go go go

get this fucking bill passed PLEASE> the country needs it. the people require it. its morally right. the only thing will be hurt here is a few companies that already have asinine profit margins.

and to GWwho.

shut the fuck up on this subject. you are rocking our economy and job sector, fucking up your stupid war, so you have good and bad, but on this one.... you are just being stupid on behalf of your cronies.[/QUOTE]

word. and why the hell not, imo? If negotiating on the open market is good enough for private entities, it ought to be good enough for the government, too.

#788042Post 3 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

seriously, as anti-socialism i am, i dont even think, i know that socialising the pharaceutical industry will only help people world wide, so what if 3 of the 3k+ companies are removed from the NYSE.......

and if they dont want to nationalize them, at least force "non profit" status and HEAVY regulation in regards to how much profit they keep in reserve, advertising, and lawsuits.

#788045Post 4 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

wow, I never thought the day would come when I'd hear those words from you...

damn pharmies! :evil:

#788067Post 5 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

dude, even with a good policy, i still have to fork over 120 a month for the shit i take for my arm....

#788082Post 6 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

does the fact that for profit pharmies will never look for the cure because it's unprofitable factor in?

#788109Post 7 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

I'm sure it does.

#788113Post 8 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

even better for us would be to actually find one and charge everyone else for it, i.e. the cold war human virus research and cure research, ....

infect everyone, keep those who you allly wqith around.

#788125Post 9 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Sightless..... do you understand WHY drugs cost so much in the USA vs. overseas, or Canada?

This is a topic I know a lot about, because my dad is a healthcare lawyer.

The reason is a simple one. Government Price Controls.

In Europe and Canada, the governments have set price caps on pharmaceutical sales. While this helps the people in their country, the effect on the USA market is to raise our costs.

It's simple business economics:

Research and development for new drugs costs money. A shitload of it. It also takes a long time. The average drug takes years to reach market. However, the patent for the drug is only good for 20 years. (It used to be 17 years) What people don't understand is that the patent goes into effect WAY before the drug ever becomes a reality. So that 20 year timeclock is ticking while you work your ass off to develop the drug, test it on animals, then to human trials, then get it approved by the FDA, and finally bring it to the market. By the time all that happens, drug companies rarely have more than a year of exclusivity left in their patents. And then you have companies trying to void your patent early. Once the patent is expired, the generic companies come in and copy your drug. But since the generics don't have the cost of R&D (because you already did all the research for them) they can undercut your prices. So.... you spend nearly 20 years and billions of dollars to bring a drug to market, and you have like 12 months to recover those costs.

But in Europe, and Canada the government says: "Hey, you can't charge market price. You can only charge what WE decide is fair." So, the drug companies are left with a choice:

  1. Don't sell their drugs in Europe.
  2. Sell the drugs at the government set prices, and recover the losses elsewhere. (Namely, the USA where we do not have price controls)

Either way, they have to charge more money for the drugs.

So in an indirect way, the USA is actually subsidizing the prescription drugs of practically the entire world. THAT is why we pay so much for drugs. We're paying more so the rest of the world can pay less.

#788134Post 10 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

If people stopped taking a prescription for every little sniffle and sneeze we might see something change as well. Demand is out of control. And not in a good way...imo.

#788137Post 11 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Time for the government to subsidize Pharmasudical R&D probably do one way or another already. Like your points subterFUSE will see what happens

#788191Post 12 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Government subsidization of drugs isn't the solution. The free-market provides far more capital than the government can. Leave it alone.

The only change I would make would be to tell Europe and the rest of the world to fuck off. Let them die from preventable diseases if they insist on imposing price controls. They aren't helping us, so why should we help them?

#788225Post 13 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=subterFUSE;433275]Government subsidization of drugs isn't the solution. The free-market provides far more capital than the government can. Leave it alone.

The only change I would make would be to tell Europe and the rest of the world to fuck off. Let them die from preventable diseases if they insist on imposing price controls. They aren't helping us, so why should we help them?[/quote]

How much market share would the US pharmasudical companies lose globally with your approach? Aren't there already other companies out there making what could be considered generic versions of brand name drugs so isn't the american public the biggest suckers in this equation by essentially being held hostage by the pharma companies and their political allies.

#788305Post 14 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=AntonyM;433312]How much market share would the US pharmasudical companies lose globally with your approach? Aren't there already other companies out there making what could be considered generic versions of brand name drugs so isn't the american public the biggest suckers in this equation by essentially being held hostage by the pharma companies and their political allies.[/quote]

Antony.....

There are a few things I feel you probably are not understanding here:

  1. Often, the government set price caps in foreign countries are so low, that the US companies are selling their drugs at nearly a loss. They might capture some profit, but certainly not enough to run the company without charging the USA more money. If we didn't sell to these countries with price caps, then the profit lost would be almost negligible.

  2. Generics. Do you understand what generic drugs are? A generic drug company is one which does not perform R&D for new drugs. Instead, they wait until the patent protection expires and then they copy the drug as best they can. Since they did not spend nearly 20 years doing R&D, and spend billions of dollars on that R&D, they are able to produce the drug for less. They can therefore undercut the prices of the name brands who actually developed the drug.

What this means to the name brand companies, who are the ones who we owe credit for developing all the new treatments and cures in the world.... is that they have a VERY strict set of conditions applied to the operation of their business. They have to come up with an idea for a drug. Then they have to patent that idea. When they get the patent, they have 20 years to bring that drug to market and sell it exclusively. So they have their chemists, biologists and engineers work tirelessly for years trying to figure out the secret of the medicine they are trying to invent. Once they come up with the compounds, they have to test them. First on animals, then on people. This process takes years. Then they have to get the FDA to approve their drug for safe use by the public. This isn't easy either. If you are lucky, you might be able to think of a drug.... get the patent..... get it through trials.... get it approved.... and get it to the shelf with maybe 6 months to 1 year of exclusivity left.

So you get what that means? It means that if you are a chemist for Pfizer, currently the world's largest pharmaceutical company.... you might spend your entire career working on a single drug. Can you imagine that? You work for 20 years, non-stop on getting a single pill to a patient for their use.

Not only that, but when you finally get that pill out to the public.... you only have a few months where you can sell it. So you need to recover the costs for R&D for all of those years. If you can't recover the costs in those few months left before the patent expires, then the generics are going to come in and take your market share. Remember that the generics didn't have to go through the process of inventing the drugs, and getting it tested for safety, etc...

So.... what do you think would happen if we pushed for generics harder? It would help generic companies make more money, right? Of course. AND, it would provide people with medicine at cheaper prices, too.... right? Yes, it would.

But can you think of any drawbacks to that plan? How about this.... Remember that the generic companies are not developing new drugs.... only making cheap copies. (In fact, they often are not "copies" at all, but futile attempts at copies) Since the generics did not spend years and years working with the drugs to develop them, they often can't create a good copy. Furthermore, they aren't subjected to the same FDA scrutiny. While this may be unimportant when dealing with an over-the-counter asprin, it's a totally different story when dealing with a chemotherapy drug.

More importantly there is the fact that if we didn't have the big drug companies working on new drugs, where are we going to get them from? Generics are not developing new drugs and cures. Governernments aren't doing it, either. So, if you eliminate big drug companies.... we aren't going to get cures for diseases 20 years from now.

Governments can't subsidize the health industry as well as the free-market can, plain and simple. Drug companies are corporations, and they raise capital just like any corporation does..... through selling shares of stock. People invest in these companies with the expectation of return on that investment. That return is driven by profit. Eliminate that profit, and you lose investors. Lose investors, and you lose capital for R&D for new drugs. And trust me, the government isn't about to subsidize the drug industry to the level that the open market will.

And generic companies are only one of the obstacles, too. Drugs companies also face huge costs from litigation. We are living in such a lawsuit infested world now, and the legal costs to these drug companies are unbelievable. Did you know that at just about any point in time, for any drug you can think of.... there are probably lawsuits in progress in every single state in the USA? Take a look at the Income Statement for a drug company sometime, and see how much money they spend in a single year on litigation. It is insane.

Socialized healthcare sounds like such a great idea, and people always talk about how well it works in other countries. Well, they fail to understand that a large part of the reason WHY it works in other countries is because we in the USA are indirectly subsidizing it for them by paying more. They pay less because their government sets rules which violate the basic principles of free trade, and we pick up the slack. If we go the same route in this country, you will see a major hit to the development of new drugs.

I think finding cures for future diseases is pretty important. How about you?

#788343Post 15 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

What a dirty bizz. Make money of people that are ill. Wonderful. Thank you USA.

PS. Mr. Fuse are you aware the Pharma companies take out doctors to "sell" their product? Are you aware that these sells people have an unlimited spending cap and wine and dine at the finest resturants? R&D. Gotta love it. I could go on and on. Still does not justify the price. Most research groups get FEDERAL grants to do their research. I am sure there is a lot of money at stake, but I really think it is more a bizz with underlying of "we want to help people". Here in the USA there is a very small % of preventive medicine, everything is after and everything is with the pill.
[quote] I think finding cures for future diseases is pretty important. How about you? [/quote] Probably the same line the Pharma companies use in their litigation. I do not buy one bit.

I hate to say this ... but Pharma companies are equivlent and as greedy as the tobacco industry. Political contributions equals hand in legislation, legislation equals company incentive which equals company control. What the tobacco company has been doing for decades. Pharma the " new smoke "

#788408Post 16 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Most of there pills have more frightening side effects I wouldn't even think of touching them.

#788420Post 17 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

  1. Only 4 of 47 drugs who had $500+ million in revenue received any government funding (NIH)

  2. It can take 17 (US) years for patent approval for a drug depending on the country. It takes 13.5-15 years just for drug approval. The actual time under patent for a drug is 5-7 years.

  3. We pay higher for prescription drugs but other countries pay higher than us for Generics. Italy and Japan pay almost 2.5x's as much for their generics.

  4. R&D is close to 1billion dollars per drug with a high failure rate.

  5. You also have direct-to-consumer advertising which takes the 2nd largest chunk out of a drug's revenue.

  6. Finding cures makes no money for pharmies. They're about treatment specific drugs because that's what they make their revenue on.

  7. If i'm not mistaken, Johnson n Johnson is the biggest pharmie atm.

For the most part, I agree with Subter. The price to pay for pharmies is a small tradeoff for the progress that they're making for us. They're the ones getting screwed. The true ramrods of the healthcare system are the insurance companies. They should be the ones you're yelling at, whether it's Medicare/Medicaid/Hospice or your HMO's and PPO's.

#788422Post 18 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[QUOTE]Most of there pills have more frightening side effects I wouldn't even think of touching them.[/QUOTE]

like addiction ... so you can go back to your doctor to get a refill. Now that is R&D ... not only will we not cure you, if you want to continue to feel good we will need you to come back after twenty days and get another refill. $ $ $ $ .

#788426Post 19 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote] 7. If i'm not mistaken, Johnson n Johnson is the biggest pharmie atm.[/quote][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] There are actually four : [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Glaxo SmithKline, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Merck, Pfizer, and Eli Lilly

FYI ... did not want to state this ...

Part 1

[/SIZE][/FONT][QUOTE]But the arguments of the pharmaceutical industry do not really stack up. For a start, their profit margins were already fat even before the Trips deal came into force. Secondly, R&D costs are dwarfed by money spent on marketing drugs. Thirdly, only 10% of R&D goes on drugs that account for 90% of global disease, with the bulk spent on first-world afflictions such as obesity. Finally, the drugs made available at lower prices are limited in supply and are still more expensive than generic substitutes.[/QUOTE] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] Part 2

[/SIZE][/FONT][quote] When you look at drug companies and their reason for existence, you have to acknowledge that they exist only to sell pharmaceuticals (to generate profits for shareholders), and that if they are going to be more successful, they have to continue to sell more pharmaceuticals to more people. Thus, because we have a capitalistic society, and because public companies like Merck have to answer to shareholders, the battle cry or operative mantra, so to speak, turns out to be "Make more money," not "Serve the public good." You see, it is the nature of the corporation itself that can ultimately be destructive to society, regardless of the positive intentions of those who work there. In this case, the intention of the corporation is quite simply, "Maximize profits." And that intention clearly collides with broader issues like serving humanity or actually healing people. To be more specific, if you teach people how to PREVENT caner, heart disease or diabetes (three diseases that are at least 90% preventable, by the way), then you lose billions of dollars in profits as a drug company (because people who aren't sick don't need drugs). Thus, the idea of teaching disease prevention stands opposed to the obligations of the corporate leaders: to make more money! This is one reason why disease prevention is simply not taught in this country. [/quote]

so cannon fodder to all you that believe Pharma are "good".

#788427Post 20 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=Localizer;433525]

  1. You also have direct-to-consumer advertising which takes the 2nd largest chunk out of a drug's revenue.

[/quote]

This drives me insane. Those effin adds make me want to puke. Talk about propaganda and public manipulation. Gah!

#788430Post 21 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

refer to my most above Lorn. The truth behold ...

#788452Post 22 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=Lorn;433532]This drives me insane. Those effin adds make me want to puke. Talk about propaganda and public manipulation. Gah![/quote]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. What if I told you that their marketing strategies were aimed at specific times of the day for specific drugs? IE, sleeping pills in the evening, anxiety drugs during the day for house moms, etc...

I was also stating that J&J is at the top of the list with Pfizer close behind. But I'm sure Pfizer might jump ahead because there are talks of Viagra being OTC since the patent is almost up.

also asdf...In response to your last quote. 6. Finding cures makes no money for pharmies. They're about treatment specific drugs because that's what they make their revenue on.

:)

Capitalism is about money. No company is truly altruistic, not even not-for-profits. It should be a given that if you establish yourself as a company in the United States, you WILL be in it for the money and nothing more.

#788516Post 23 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Regardless of what you think about corporations.....

Imagine living in a world without them. We would be back in the stone age.

I bet most of you people on this board don't even drink tap water. You probably drink bottled water, like I do.

So there you have it. The most basic resource needed to sustain life. And you get it from a corporation. ;)

#788521Post 24 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[QUOTE=subterFUSE;433205]This is a topic I know a lot about, because my dad is a healthcare lawyer.[/QUOTE]

Well, I, personally, am also an attorney and my specialty is pharmaceutical antitrust litigation. For the last 6 years, I've been litigating cases directed specifically to the issue of drug pricing for the biggest drugs and drug companies in the market. I don't have the time to go into great detail about this right now and I'll try to write more later, but suffice it to say that:

  1. What you set forth as fact is a pharmaceutical company's worst nightmare, represents the worst case scenario and is not a reasonable starting point for a discussion on this topic.
  2. Although R&D is a large component of price, it is just that, a component, and drug companies do not deserve a free pass because they incur R&D costs.
  3. You are giving the pharmaceutical industry [B]WAY[/B] too much credit. I can't think of a dirtier industry, and I suspect that if you knew what was really going on, some of which I can't even discuss, you wouldn't feel so warm and fuzzy about them.

To be continued...

#788542Post 25 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Mr. Fuse,

I drink tap water. Frankly the only thing that I will pay for that is close to water is beer.

xoxoxox,

Mountain man.

#788544Post 26 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=asdf_admin;433662]Mr. Fuse,

I drink tap water. Frankly the only thing that I will pay for that is close to water is beer.

xoxoxox,

Mountain man.[/quote]

;)

#788545Post 27 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=toasty;433639]Well, I, personally, am also an attorney and my specialty is pharmaceutical antitrust litigation. For the last 6 years, I've been litigating cases directed specifically to the issue of drug pricing for the biggest drugs and drug companies in the market. I don't have the time to go into great detail about this right now and I'll try to write more later, but suffice it to say that:

  1. What you set forth as fact is a pharmaceutical company's worst nightmare, represents the worst case scenario and is not a reasonable starting point for a discussion on this topic.
  2. Although R&D is a large component of price, it is just that, a component, and drug companies do not deserve a free pass because they incur R&D costs.
  3. You are giving the pharmaceutical industry [B]WAY[/B] too much credit. I can't think of a dirtier industry, and I suspect that if you knew what was really going on, some of which I can't even discuss, you wouldn't feel so warm and fuzzy about them.

To be continued...[/quote]

My dad specializes in getting drugs approved by the FDA, primarily.

Looking forward to further discussion. ;)

#788551Post 28 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

I completely understand what they HAVE to do. You have shareholders ... and shareholders want money. So it is a war that can never be won. I guess as a wise man says " pick your battles wisely "

#788970Post 29 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

I hope your beer doesn't taste like water...yuck. ;)

#789420Post 30 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[QUOTE=subterFUSE;433665]My dad specializes in getting drugs approved by the FDA, primarily.

Looking forward to further discussion. ;)[/QUOTE]

OK, a few thoughts here on pharmaceutical pricing.

First off, much of your argument seems to presuppose that generic drugs are bad. For the pioneer drug manufacturer's standpoint, that's certainly right, but from a consumer's standpoint, nothing could be further from the truth. Think about it in practical terms -- you go to the pharmacy to fill a script, and if there is a generic available, there is a remarkable difference in what you pay.

BTW, for a generic version of a drug to be substituted by the pharmacy, it has to be what is known as AB-rated, meaning that it is bioequivalent, i.e., it has the same safety and efficacy profile as the referenced drug. This does not mean that it is identical -- they will typically have the same active ingredient (because you can't patent a chemical compound) and will have different inactive ingredients -- but it will work in the same way. They probably won't be the same color as the branded drug, might be bigger, might be smaller, might not be scored, might not be compressed in the same manner, but it has to work the same as the original for it to be substituted. In terms of effectiveness and safety -- which is really what counts -- they are the same, and referring to a generic as a cheap knockoff might make sense from the standpoint of a competing branded drug manufacturer that wants consumers to have a reason to stay with the drug, but the reality is that from the standpoint of a consumer, there is rarely a difference, and if there really is a difference, a physician can write a script as "dispense as written" which disallows generic substitution.

The other thing to remember is that making a generic version of a drug is not as easy as just going into the lab and whipping it up. Generic drug companies work extremely hard to reverse-engineer the drugs in terms of safety and efficacy and then re-engineer them to work around the patent. Back in 1983, Orrin Hatch and Henry Waxman co-sponsored a bill that would allow for the entry of generic drugs to encourage companies to come to market with competing generic versions of branded drugs. If a company can manufacture a generic version of a drug that does not infringe on the patent of the branded drug (or if it can demonstrate that the underlying patent is invalid), it is awarded with 6 months of exclusivity where it is the only drug company that can sell a generic version of the drug, and no other drug company can begin selling another generic until that 6 months have run.

You might think, "6 months, big fucking deal." Well, it is a big fucking deal, both to the branded manufacturer and the generic manufacturer. A great example of this is the antibiotic ciprofloxacin a/k/a Cipro which gained great notoriety after 9/11 because it is what is administered to someone who has been exposed to anthrax. Cipro is the best selling antibiotic on the planet and has annual sales in excess of $1 billion. Let me say that again, because it bears repeating -- every year Cipro is on the market without generic competition, Bayer brings in $1 billion. That's $830 million [B]per month[/B].

You might remember after 9/11 that there was a great deal of press about there not being a generic version of Cipro available, and Bayer being vehemently opposing any attempt to allow a generic into the market. The reality, however, is that there have been generics locked and loaded for Cipro since at least 1997 -- Bayer, however, paid the would-be competitor to stay off the market, and consumers paid the price.

It works like this -- when a generic competitor certifies that its drug will not infringe the branded drug's patent, the branded manufacturer has an automatic right to sue for patent infringement and stay the entry of the generic competitor for 30 months. This invariably happens whether the infringement suit has any merit or not because 30 months without competition equals enormous amounts of money -- using Bayer as an example, when it sued its would-be competitor, it protected its stream of $2.5 billion over the next 2 and a half years.

On the even of trial, Bayer entered into a settlement agreement where it paid the alleged infringer $100 million up front and $25 million per year to refrain from coming to market -- and because that would-be competitor didn't enter the market, its 6 months of exclusivity never began to run, and no other generics could come to market, either. Bayer preserves its monopoly, the generic manufacturer makes more than it could on the open market, and consumers are hung out to dry.

It would be great if this was an isolated example. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens routinely when drugs are coming off patent or generic competition is imminent. My favorite was when a drug company, on the eve of its patent expiration, filed a patent covering the substance the body creates when metabolizing the drug to stretch its monopoly another couple of decades. Even though the patent was ultimately denied, they went a few months without competition while the dispute was ongoing, and that's what's really important. This is the landscape in which these companies compete.

You are correct that when generics come to market, the effect on the branded drug's market share is significant. Within 1 year, generics normally take approximately 80% of the market share. What about those 20% that stay with the branded drug? Do they pay less because of the presence of competition? You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. Through something known as "market harvesting," the prices of branded drugs actually increase after generic entry to try to make as much money off the loyalty of those that stick with the brand rather than switching to the generic.

Anyway, the point is this: pharma companies do good for society, and they should be rewarded for that and allowed to make money, even a lot of money. The question is when enough is enough. R&D is a huge expense, but it is an expense that drug companies have, for years, willingly taken on in exchange for the promise of ridiculous profits. Nowadays, however, that expense is being eclipsed by marketing-related expenses.

Blockbuster allergy drug Claritin is a good example to use here. Claritin is an example of a drug where the marketing cost more than the development -- over $1 billion in marketing. Something a lot of people don't know, however, is that Claritin, as a drug, really isn't all that effective. Its manufacturer's own studies, the results of which are publicly available to anyone willing to dig, shows that it is only slightly more effective than a placebo. Nevertheless, Schering marketed the hell out of it and people pop it like candy. At least they did, until it was getting ready to come off patent and go OTC. At that point, Schering began cannibalizing its own market for Claritin by pushing Clarinex, a drug that is chemically and clinically almost identical to Claritin but which fetches the higher branded prescription price. Pretty smart, I suppose, but most consumers who take Clarinex don't know that (1) there's almost a 50/50 chance that it won't do shit for you, and (2) even if it does work, it is virtually indistinguishable from its cheaper predecessor.

And as for the costs of litigation, cry me a river. Although I can't go into specifics, I can think of specific instances where a drug company has released a drug into the marketplace knowing it would kill a percentage of the people that took it and didn't offer any warning on that somewhat important point. Keep in mind, we're not talking here about a life-saving treatment, where in the absence of taking the drug, the person might die anyway -- I'm talking about a drug that would be equivalent to elective surgery. Yet, it gets released into the market because the determination is made that the drug will make enough money that the wrongful death claims can be paid and the company will still clear a profit. Personally, I consider that criminal.

I could go on and on and it's really tough to explain being handcuffed to some extent as to what I can and can't say on the topic, but the overarching point I'd like people to take from this is that the pharma industry is looking out for their best interests, first, second, and third. They are not motivated by altruism, and ought not get a free pass because they -- like every other industry -- have R&D expenses and have to face competition at some point.

As an aside, I'm not sure where you're getting your figures on the time it takes to bring a drug to market and the amount of time left on the patent once it hits the market -- again, I would consider that to be the worst case scenrio and much more the exception than the rule, and most drugs have much more than a year to recapture their R&D costs. If they didn't, it wouldn't be a good investment of those kind of resources, because drugs don't generally come out of the gate with those kind of sales anyway -- normally takes a couple of years to build up a head of steam. Generics have been around for decades, and the grim predictions you offer have been proven wrong, with pioneer drug companies doing quite well financially.

Sorry this is so disjointed, just kinda rambling. I gotta get back to work.

#789439Post 31 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

haha. i can not wait for a response.

... Mr. Fuse? ;)

#789448Post 32 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

:shock:

#790681Post 33 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

I was waiting for toasty to jump in on this one...he's got tons more to say on the subject that I could...

and with that, well said toasty :Bingo: :Respect:

and I'd just like to add one more thing, I can't understand how anyone could argue in the pharmie's favor while ignoring the most basic fact that pharmies will never make the cure or teach prevention. This is what our government funding should be focused on...for gods sake the last real cure that was created was for polio over 50 years ago! Cancer, AIDS, etc....are you fu*king kidding me?! They could come up with billions of ways and drug cocktails to stall the disease, but little or no progress on curing it...that just doesn't make any rational sense. :evil:

#790708Post 34 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=rubyraks;436102]I was waiting for toasty to jump in on this one...he's got tons more to say on the subject that I could...

and with that, well said toasty :Bingo: :Respect:

and I'd just like to add one more thing, I can't understand how anyone could argue in the pharmie's favor while ignoring the most basic fact that pharmies will never make the cure or teach prevention. This is what our government funding should be focused on...for gods sake the last real cure that was created was for polio over 50 years ago! Cancer, AIDS, etc....are you fu*king kidding me?! They could come up with billions of ways and drug cocktails to stall the disease, but little or no progress on curing it...that just doesn't make any rational sense. :evil:[/quote]

Because they'd go out of business with cures. Chemotherapy for cancer is expensive and keeps everyone, including docs, in business. It's demented, especially when the axiom for physicians is 'do no harm.'

#790751Post 35 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

^I understand the whys...This is just one of the examples of a flaw (or deficiency) in the capitalist system that so many hold sacred and dear.

#790753Post 36 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

Sure capitalism is flawed. So is every other ism. The real question is which one works the best for this screwed up world we live in.

#790762Post 37 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

My point wasn't to dismiss a capitalist economy, but to point out that for all the good it does sometimes non-capitalist measures need to be taken to make up for it's shortcomings and this certainly is a prime example.

#790795Post 38 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=toasty;434742]Anyway, the point is this: pharma companies do good for society, and they should be rewarded for that and allowed to make money, even a lot of money. The question is when enough is enough. R&D is a huge expense, but it is an expense that drug companies have, for years, willingly taken on in exchange for the promise of ridiculous profits. Nowadays, however, that expense is being eclipsed by marketing-related expenses.[/quote]

I did corporate finance at a major pharma company for 5 years. Good post, and I agree with pretty much all of it. A few thoughts I'd add:

  1. DTC advertising, selling, and marketing: I would love to see an industry-wide crack down on this. If we're talking about adjusting the financial playing field for a highly regulated monopolistic industry that makes many products that for many people are non-negotiable in short run demand (ok, granted that there are also a lot of drugs that people don't really need either...), then this is a good place for the FDA to start.

  2. Regarding prevention & education: I agree that this would be great - but this issue goes much deeper than just the pharma companies. The current healthcare paradigm is a product of the actions of big pharma, the medical community, the government (i.e., FDA), and the modern food industry. A tangible change in the way society views healthcare has to change all three of these. And it's almost sacreligious as a layperson to challenge a physician...and the only people who really have the funding to run the major double-blind placebo studies are, of course, pharma companies.

Looking beyond symptom treatment...supplements & minerals...fresh, organic foods...avoidance of artificial colors, artificial sweeteners, preservatives... These are all things that carry no value to pharma, doctors, FDA officials, or food providers. For example, our modern health care paradigm thinks:

  • that partially hydrogenated oils are ok for you to eat
  • that milk produced from a non-grazing cow raised on antibiotics and growth hormones is just as good as natural milk
  • that there is no consequence to you from regularly eating heavily processed frozen foods bout at your local supermarket.

This list goes on and on and on.

If you want to look beyond the prescription pill to see what you might be able to do for your long term health, you've got to do all of the work on your own. Because the pharma folks, the doctors, the FDA, and the food retailers are not on your side and they're not going to help you.

#790802Post 39 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

[quote=rubyraks;436185]My point wasn't to dismiss a capitalist economy, but to point out that for all the good it does sometimes non-capitalist measures need to be taken to make up for it's shortcomings and this certainly is a prime example.[/quote]

Gotcha. Perhaps that is what we will see in another thousand years.

#790882Post 40 of 42

Re: the one thing i will back pelosi all the way on.....

credit killed the conscious star.

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