I was visiting a relative a few weeks ago and while watching the news, another story of a bombing in Iraq came up. That is when the debate of what could be done in Iraq ensued.

A very interesting point that came up during our conversation is the fact that the Middle Eastern countries, since time immemorial, have been under the rule of an autocratic leader/military type regime. I mean it is ironically obvoius across the entire region that a dictatorial regiment has been keeping/kept the things under control (more-or-less).

Going there to liberalize a country (that has been "under control" by a single dictator and potentially similar individuals/organizations over time) on the pretext of providing a sense of democracy seems as crazy as enstating Communism in the US of A.

Which is potentially why we see/have seen groups like Hezbollah/Hamas/Al Qaeda/Taliban and whatever you have, come in and out of power.

If tyranny/absolute control is the way to rule, it seems downright impossible that we will see a sense of stability in this region.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

It's a point that I had taken up many a times early on in the war. One thing that the Americans neoconservatives never took into consideration was the effect such a political change would have on the population. When a population only knows dictatorships and tyranny, it takes quite a while for them to realize the benefits of something else. This isn't something that happens overnight.

To have thought that in a few years we would be able to walk in and set up a completely different political landscape and expect the people to be able to comfortably go along (simply because we had determined it was better for them) is unrealistic, as history has now shown. It takes time to build that kind of support and even longer for people to adapt to it and better yet, it's just that much harder to try doing that under the barrel of a gun or under foreign occupation.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I agree with you - I have met so many people that say: iraqi want to be free, they want to have democracy, every man is entitled to freedom, freedom of speech... I think the two latter are right but the whole things need to come alltogether and bears a certain cost: first of all, you need to have a population that understands what it means and actually that do want it, then you also need to build the institutions to support that kind of regime - which is not just by organizing elections... Your point about that region of the world is good, I would add the fact that it also bears ultra conservative religious caracteristics that have not evolved yet enough to let that kind of concept be understood by the masses

[CENTER]"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."[/CENTER] [RIGHT]~ Winston Churchill[/RIGHT]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

one word answer.

no

reason:: the people , for the most part, in the region are ass backwards.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Everyone wants democracy...you all should know that. ;)

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

We all know that, it's just that they don't know it... ;)

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

more importantly, don't understand it..... its the Jungle's rule out there... Might is Right

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

im just wondering,

do the people of the middle east as a whole, factoring in that there are indeed exceptions, realize that the rest of the world look at them like ''what the fuck is wrong with these people?"

i mean, do they enjoy not having a say and having tough laws imposed on them to the point where in one certain country, the legislature is still trying to pass a law whereas you wear a pin to show your religion?> do they like not being able to obtain jobs in saudi arabia b/.c of sharaic schooling?> why arent the people in iraq fed up with the al sadr milita killing everyone? i mean, you see ppl in the streets crying, but yet, no one speaks out in favor of hunting down moqtada. they cheer bin laden and his boys.....

insert sarcasm at this point, i want some pro-western terror attacks. lets get some americans and europeans in there with big bombs and lets attack mecca, some shrines, maybe a hamas building or three, some important oil buildings. and we can tape ourselves cheering for mecca being bombed right on the corner of church and vescey streets. (ground zero).

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

^you got to understand that most of them just don't really know any of way of living. When all your life has been under tyrannical rule, your vision is only able to go so far.

Think something similar to the Stockholm syndrome...

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=Kamal;405014]more importantly, don't understand it..... its the Jungle's rule out there... Might is Right[/quote]

economically, it's called the bazar type of economy: cheat if you can, lie if it brings you something, just look for short term (I'm pulling it a little) but anyways, this model has proven to be non-productive.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

even the turkish people are like this and thier country isnt that bad. which btw, wait a week until the pope goes to turkey. someone does something to him, and you will see the single largest rise in racial crimes worldwide.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Things take time, culture don't change like that. remember that this part of the world was also the crade of the persian empire that ruled the world while europe was fucking goats and the US did not exists. democracy took almost 200 years not become a stable political system - don't ask these people to put it up in 3 years

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

^Yup. And who knows. In another 300 years maybe something better will come along.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[talking out of ass] I don't think it is that much of a stretch for a country in the mid-east to set up a democratic system of government, to the extent that they would have leaders that are elected by popular vote. The problem is that there are so many things that come with the American version of democracy that we're trying to inject at the same time -- that's where the resistance really is, I think.

I suspect the Iraqis are ready for the idea of voting to control their own fate. Are they ready for separation of church and state, though? Are they ready for freedom of speech? Are they ready for a more westernized culture? I think Bush's vision is to turn Iraq into a mid-eastern version of the US. I think that's the real stumbling block.

[/talking out of ass]

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

i think gw learned his lesson when hamas was elected democratically.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[QUOTE=thesightless;405161]i think gw learned his lesson when hamas was elected democratically.[/QUOTE] true dat...one hell of a blow to his democratic middle eastern vision or as many others like to say the US is supportive of democratic systems as long as the person they want elected is elected. ;)

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

erm, democracy is a farce. It would never have worked if it hadn't produced so much wealth. This is a theological institution of government to have people elect politicians that they know nothing about. It's very easy for a politician to lie, and it's been proven over and over. However, the system is exploited, and many commonmen benefit from it, thus why it still exists. This, of course, would not have worked in Iraq where they run under a religious law as opposed to a state institutionalized law. But JeeDub didn't do his homework on the country and thus why we're clusterfuckered.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=Localizer;405327]erm, democracy is a farce. [/quote]

dont even. its the ONLY system where the people have a voice and the power to non violently remove thier leadership, AND, the implementations of term limits prevents abuse for the long run. do you think the ayatollahs would let the iranian people remove their athourity? me thinks not. do you see kim jong stepping down anytime soon?

it flaws itself when the people dont hold leadership accountable properly. if, 2 years ago, the ppl of the US on a large scale, put forth petition to abandon iraq, and overwhemingly suceeded, we would have had no choice. we screamed but didnt act. and if bush refesed, the people have the right to demand thier representatives remove him, legally.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=thesightless;405388]dont even. its the ONLY system where the people have a voice and the power to non violently remove thier leadership, AND, the implementations of term limits prevents abuse for the long run. do you think the ayatollahs would let the iranian people remove their athourity? me thinks not. do you see kim jong stepping down anytime soon?

it flaws itself when the people dont hold leadership accountable properly. if, 2 years ago, the ppl of the US on a large scale, put forth petition to abandon iraq, and overwhemingly suceeded, we would have had no choice. we screamed but didnt act. and if bush refesed, the people have the right to demand thier representatives remove him, legally.[/quote]

I'm sure the Romans thought that too.

Like I said, it succeeded because it produced wealth.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

There will be no democracy in the Middle East until the Arabs move out of the middle ages and drop their zealous love affair with their religion. It's hard to be democratic when you think that God has given you a mandate to beat and even kill your own women when they get too uppity and go out somewhere without their burkas on. You'll notice that places where democracies flourish are generally places where different views are tolerated. That's hardly the case in the Middle East.

And of course, by extrapolation, there will be no functioning democracy from Bush's efforts in Iraq. It's like trying to teach pigs to fly. And even if there could be a democracy in Iraq, functioning democracies don't come about from nations occupying and colonizing other nations and telling them "you will now have democracy, or else".

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Democracy is just what US wants to call it....in all reality....they just trying to set up a satellite nation....cuz of their access to OIL. Thats why they "care" so much. Had the same thing happened in middle of africa....or somwhere where there ISNT a natural resource to be exploited, they wouldnt give a rats ass about it. They NEED to set up a satellite nation so US can keep an eye on...and take on its NEXT opponent in the axis of EVIL.....IRAN! Iran HAS to be next....cuz the southern part of the entire Caspian Sea is in Iran, and the Caspian...has the LARGEST oil deposit in the World..Some few BILLION barrels of oil

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

The only reason to set up Democracy is so they can corrupt it. US has NO interest in helping other people. Their only interest is SELF interest.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=JahRasta;406223]The only reason to set up Democracy is so they can corrupt it. US has NO interest in helping other people. Their only interest is SELF interest.[/quote]

That's the nature of every human being, not just democracy.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Yes...but thats what seperates us from the animals. We KNOW what is right and what is wrong, and we have the ability to rise above our nature to be greedy. It may be a harder road...but its a higher road.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I do agree that we're not over there just out of our selfless desire to spread the joys of democracy all over the world. But actually, the spread of democracy is very much in the US's self interest (and most of Europe's, as well). Democracies tend to see more eye to eye and employ similar standards in their approaches to societal and economic issues. Sore thumbs like Chinese communists and Middle Eastern fundamentalists ruin the party. And when they mix with democracies, conflicts inevitably arise.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=thesightless;404902]one word answer.

no

[/quote]

I agree with sean here

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

what a honk of shit...democracy?....i dont think it helps...i mean america the great democracy setting democratic precedents and it still dug a whole took a massive steaming dump in it and then started to lather itself up in its own shit..and its democratic people in the democratic counrty with democratic institutions couldnt do a democratic thing about it... 2 party choice...yeah you have a and you have b....go for it....what kind of democracy is that...and im sorry but democracy in these terms so proposed can only function when the ideals of a democracy can be appreciated...when there is no education and poverty riddled people just trying to feed themsleves and live...how can a two party system be of any worth....only so that capitalist stool can pass without any unecessary friction.... democracy...ha...ha...ha.....israel is a democracy?....ha...ha...ha.... i think the only effective democracy is one in switzerland...and switzerland and its people and standard of living and wealth is high...they have the basics covered...that why they can work on other democratic objectives...the basics need to be covered first..there needs to ba a playing field from which these people can benifet from democracy...other wise thier votes dont count for shit...so what kind of democracy can it be?

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=malayday;407236]only so that capitalist stool can pass without any unecessary friction.... [/quote]

Now that made me laugh.:lol:

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Nicely put Malayday! NICELY put!

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Okay...so I could completely be off the deep end with this, but this is what I am starting to think. I think that democracy was created to take power away from god. Like a teenager, always fighting the power, rebelling against figures of authority. Democracy was born from mans need to fight the totalitarianisitc control of god and the church. Where every member, was inwardly rebelling, but outwardly a devout follower and a active "foot soldier" of god. Finding blasphemers or heretics in other people so what WE do behind closed doors doesnt get found out. After years and decades an centuries passed...we slowly revolted against GOD and Religion, by changing our beliefs, ceremonies, culture, and interpretation of "God's Will", to the point where the church and state are two seperate etities. Which, if I am not mistaken, is one of the key points of democracy. So NOW what we have is people saying...screw you God, I decide whats right for me.

Well..so I believe, and like I said before, I could be waaay off the deep end with this, and I am not saying that is a factoid about ALL the people, but it could be true for a LOT of people.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

wow, that's a hell of a leap there and perhaps you should have posted it in the atheist thread ;)

There's no denying that the US version was predicated on a separation of church and state to the extent that it wasn't a plurality, but that's a far cry from the conclusion you're trying to reach there.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

LOL....Like I said...I could be off the deep end with this.....but knowing human nature...its not completely absurd either.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

I think what he is pointing out is the ME is not ready to separte church and state.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[QUOTE=Lorn;407615]I think what he is pointing out is the ME is not ready to separte church and state.[/QUOTE] Now that may be the understatement of the year on this board! ;)

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=rubyraks;407621]Now that may be the understatement of the year on this board! ;)[/quote]

add on to the end

.........and they are currently killing 200-300 ppl a day around the world to re-integrate the two forcibly.

edit ::i quoted the wrong person. add that to lorn's texrt.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=JahRasta;407567]Okay...so I could completely be off the deep end with this, but this is what I am starting to think. I think that democracy was created to take power away from god. Like a teenager, always fighting the power, rebelling against figures of authority. Democracy was born from mans need to fight the totalitarianisitc control of god and the church. Where every member, was inwardly rebelling, but outwardly a devout follower and a active "foot soldier" of god. Finding blasphemers or heretics in other people so what WE do behind closed doors doesnt get found out. After years and decades an centuries passed...we slowly revolted against GOD and Religion, by changing our beliefs, ceremonies, culture, and interpretation of "God's Will", to the point where the church and state are two seperate etities. Which, if I am not mistaken, is one of the key points of democracy. So NOW what we have is people saying...screw you God, I decide whats right for me.

Well..so I believe, and like I said before, I could be waaay off the deep end with this, and I am not saying that is a factoid about ALL the people, but it could be true for a LOT of people.[/quote]

I don't know about this, basically, you are saying that democracy is a tool that we, the population, have created against the opressing power of religion. First of all, democratic ideas do not work against religious ideas - it is true that there are conflicts of power between religion and State but they have always existed and were usually well managed throughout the Middle ages You are right that some ideas behind democrcay like equality were used to separate the State and Religion in some Europeans countries (1905 in France) but look in the US, you still have a President that says god saves America - and the word god is on the dollar bill. Now, going "deeper" like you said, the true decline of religious activities is actually something both very new (this century) and certainly localised in the US and some countries in Europe. Andre Malraux once said : the XXIth century would be religious - or not. basically letting us understand that whatever crisis religion was going through in the 60-70s, it will be solved quickly Finally, you present the idea that man needs to rebel against power - which I have a problem with: a lot of people actually like to be controlled and do not want too much freedom. when it comes to religion, one of the reasons why we are not all atheist is that we hope that there is something after death and time - only parts that we do not control or seem to control in our lives. there is a need for us to thrives towards purely material and human things.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[QUOTE=RiseandShine;407627]First of all, democratic ideas do not work against religious ideas - it is true that there are conflicts of power between religion and State but they have always existed and were usually well managed throughout the Middle ages[/QUOTE] I don't necessarily agree with all that you said there, but this part in particular is extremely misleading...When the religion is governing the state, it's misleading to then say that conflicts between religion and state were "well managed". That's like saying the same in regards to any country governed by shariah law and I'm sure that wasn't the point you're trying to make.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

Finally, you present the idea that man needs to rebel against power - which I have a problem with: a lot of people actually like to be controlled and do not want too much freedom.

If that is the case...then why are we soooo afraid of Socialism????

People DO want freedom...but they forget the OTHER part...RESPONSIBILITY! People DO NOT realize that with Freedom comes responsibility, without it....it would be Chaos.

The US president - Dubya...says God Bless America...now do you REALLY think that God cares about Political States?? God blesses one country and damns another? Does God really care about political boundaries we draw....seperating us from another country which is not that different? Is God REALLY that PETTY?? Or do you think God cares more about how we...as individuals conduct our lives?

If Dubya really cared about God blessing America....then he never would have gone to war with Iraq...a war where innocent US Soldiers....casualties numbering in the THOUSANDS.....are dying for a war that was based on a personal (presidential), vendetta...against a country who made an oil deal with South American instead of the US. The MAIN reason for going into Iraq was to set up a satellite nation that will sell oil to us at a good price. Granted it also helps if the VP's (Cheney) company - Haliburton is already there protecting and refining the oil. THat was the VERY FIRST thing they secured when US forces invaded Iraq. So much for the human equation. Fuck the innocent people, ...lets save the oil!

US ...is moving away from the Church and God's Will....on a rocket! Instead of expelling it, I see that US is embracing the 7 deadly sins. Not EVERYONE does this...but there is a fast growing trend in that direction.....

Democracy, in essence IS working against the religious state, because, people are weak...and will succumb to the wrongs of this world more than what is right of this world, otherwise there would BE no need for a religion...or a God. If we all were truely good people, then there would BE no religion. But we NEED it...so that we are conscious of the choices we are making and the direction we are going. Seeing what we need to do is right....ie..the 10 Commandments....instead, we are making a B line in the opposite direction.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

[quote=rubyraks;407633]I don't necessarily agree with all that you said there, but this part in particular is extremely misleading...When the religion is governing the state, it's misleading to then say that conflicts between religion and state were "well managed". That's like saying the same in regards to any country governed by shariah law and I'm sure that wasn't the point you're trying to make.[/quote]

sorry to be so far away from your belief - and sorry for trying to mislead you ;)

no, here, I'm saying that church and State have coexisted - in Europe, during Middle ages, there was the Church and the state and they were distinct. when I mean conflicts, for example, when hospitals were created, there was a suddenr rush to know who will have more power over these insitutions... but in general, thoughout history in Europe, in the Middle Ages, there have not been many crisis between church and the State.

Re: Can the concept of "democracy" survive in the Middle Eastern/Arab regions?

You see what I can't understand is how you could distinguish church from state during the middle ages. During that period of time, they were one and the same. I mean, hell, England's king created his own version of religion, just so he could do whatever the hell he pleases.

To me, co-existing sounds like there's some seperation of the two, but the state was the church and the church was the state.