[url]http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20061103/pl_nm/usa_elections_bush_dc_9[/url]

Wow. Takes alarming nerve, I think, to drag a country into a war with no plan for success, resulting in the deaths of countless people, and then start challenging the opposition to come up with a plan to unfuck the fucked up situation you created.

We all know that Bush doesn't have a plan. I'm increasingly concerned that he doesn't even have a goal or a mission, though. Seriously, what is the end game at this point? Whose side are we even on right now? BTW, "freedom" is not an acceptable answer... :roll:

If the mission was to rid Iraq of WMDs, that mission has been accomplished -- it was accomplished before we got there. If the mission was to remove Saddam from power, that mission has been accomplished.

Anyone have the vibe from the reports that are coming out of Iraq that there is no longer a clearly defined insurgency, and that we're now looking at full blown civil war? Are we on the Shi'ite side or are we just trying to keep order? What exactly are we looking to accomplish? "We'll stand down when the Iraqis stand up" just isn't carrying the day for me anymore.

I seriously don't have an answer for any of this, nor do I think it is my responsibility to have one. If anyone had a good idea for how to get out of this mess, I assume they would have voiced it by now. One thing is clear, though -- "staying the course" or whatever you want to call it is not much of a plan when no one ever knows where "the course" will lead.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

That takes some balls! And the sad thing is, that'll work with his base and those dumbass 39% of Americans who STILL think he's doing an acceptable job. Pathetic! :roll:

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

oh they had a plan, but it was a plan by donald rumsfeld, which is the equivelent of me planning to operate on steven hawkings spinal cord .......

the only thing about this waste of a war on behalf of a waste of humanity that i stand behind is that running is the last fucking thing we should do. we caused the mess, we owe it to the future generation and the general concept of peace to stick it out until the government can operate without the fear of al sadr's buddies killing thier families.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

but he is right, while he has a so called plan, they dont, they just want to run away fron it and let the iraqis deal with it, which plain and simple, is not fair. to anyone.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

Have you even been listening to most of the democrats? There are few (note: I'm not saying none) that have suggested we should cut and run, contrary to popular republican opinion that all of them have said that. Most have said we should come up with a timetable in the context of a plan to stabilize the area. No definitive dates, just some approach to actually getting somewhere over there, as opposed to this continous downward spiral of a clusterfuck and a will to maintain the status quo by the administration. So long as Bush and his cronies maintain this war is "for the long haul", they look at what's going on right now as merely a bump in the road.

Similar to in a work environment, some semblance of a deadline gets people to move quicker and be more effective (even when that deadline isn't "set in stone") and that wouldn't be a bad thing for this bumbling "corporate" administration.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

He has a plan but he hasn't bothered sharing it with any of us citizens. Its scare tactics. Absolute rubbish. And in the meantime, the money being spent should be the real issue imo.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

You mean kinda like how he had a reason for invading Iraq in the first place, but never really shared it with us citizens? ;)

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

he has a plan to exit, it securing the country, whatever that means............

but you cant kill everyone there, and there isnt a uniformed army killing civilians, its a closet group in society...

at least us americans can learn how to fight back if we are ever invaded. hide and kill our neighbors. blame the invaders.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[quote=rubyraks;401371]You mean kinda like how he had a reason for invading Iraq in the first place, but never really shared it with us citizens? ;)[/quote]

Exactamundo.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

we should have just nuked the region to the ground on sept 12 2001.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

Seriously -- at this point, what is our mission? If we're ever going to be able to claim victory, we need to know what our goal is. Right now, it seems like we're just hanging out.

We can't just pull out, but we're in an awful catch 22 situation.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

seriously? you wanna know?

i have talked to a few people, a. a NYPD det who is counter terror with the FBI and CIA., b. my brother james, current ARMY, c. my cousin keiran, an ARMY colonel in iraq right now.

where we stand, and be ready you wont like this.

we have to continue as we are, due in major part to the conventions, OR, we can get tough and break some law.

1. delcare martial law
2. curfew, strict and early,
3. begin house to house searches, for a variety of reasons. we need to find where the weapons are, where the explosives are. this can only be done by a lock down, house to hosue search. this will also yeild a monster amount of intelligence in regards to how al sadr's army is operating, obtaining info about gov and police employees
4. be ready to ''shoot to kill''. again, you cannot understate, in terms of military action, that the ones causing 50 deaths a day are not a uniformed army, but an organized group of civilians who seem to have access to iraqi governmental information.
5. once you know where the intellignce, weapons, and explosives came from, you need to cut off the supply.
6. keep them voting, encourage the economy, and get some public works.
7. geographically, we are able to restore the central swamplands that hussein destroyed in revenge. this will enable a return to agriculture and allow the people to earn a living and eat.

once you eliminate those who clearly do not want anything but chaos until we leave, in order to take control, you will see a decline in deaths, a slight return to normal living regarding the ability to walk the streets.

yet again, i will stress, that nearly every international treaty prohibits any offensive on civilians, and these groups, like al sadr's army, hamas and hezzbollah, know this too well and expose it. but these agreements need to be abandoned in the middle east, as thier armies, are nothing more than organized civilians who are registered with the UN as ''military''

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

^^ well, that's a POA, but it still leaves the fundamental question of why we are there unanswered. What is it we're looking to accomplish?

Think back to when you were a kid and you played with your friends around the neighborhood. You and your friends decide to have a race, but because you're not on a track that has an obvious end point, you say something like, "OK, let's race from here to the second oak tree." You do that for obvious reasons -- if you didn't do that, you'd just keep running, because no one would know when they'd won.

We're in the same situation here. Its tough to know when we're ready to leave when no one knows what the end is supposed to look like. I'm afraid we're just running, with no idea which oak tree is the finish line.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

^^^ [FONT=Arial]Yes, this is being fascist, plus it is just extremely expensive[/FONT]

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

I think why we are there has already been accomplished....ie ousting Sadam. We are still there because we didn't estimate how effed up the place would become after Sadam was ousted. So it seems to the whole is a cover up job. imo.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[quote] well, that's a POA, but it still leaves the fundamental question of why we are there unanswered. What is it we're looking to accomplish [/quote]

we got step one and maybe 2 done, depends on where you stand regarding the baath party's former chemical munitions, which are currently in either syria or iran, and the few baath dissidents who attested to this were killed. the deposing of saddam is also done.

now, IMO, we need to get thier government in gear, and if we cant, then the world as a whole needs to step in and divide the country religiously and allow islam to destroy yet another possible nation where people hold the power.

there is a judgement that needs to be made once moqtada al sadr is dead or jailed, and that is based on the question we must pose to the people there.

"what do you want? freedom? then embrace it. religious leadership? then enjoy your countrymen being killed by whichever sect has the most power in the end.

there really isnt anything more we can do other than hire Doc emmet brown and go back in time and kill bush 1, clinton and bush 2. these 3 men are solely responsible for the heavy american involvement there.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[quote=RiseandShine;401428][FONT=Arial]plus it is just extremely expensive[/FONT][/quote]

Expensive as shite!

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[QUOTE=thesightless;401431]"what do you want? freedom? then embrace it. religious leadership? then enjoy your countrymen being killed by whichever sect has the most power in the end.[/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that should they choose religion over freedom, we should cut and run? :p

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

Whether or not he fully admits it, the only "goal" by default that Bush has right now by staying there is the goal of nation-building.

That means that all Bush has to do is:

1. killing all the opposition(s) and create peace
2. build all of the infrastructure and get the economy to work
3. create all of the civic/governmental/institutional processes that lead to the democratically oriented outcomes he wants to see
4. change the Iraqi peoples' opinions, values, and cultural characteristics that they have cultivated over generations for thousands of years, so that they embrace his American-style democratic system now.

:)

".......MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!....."

bwaaahahahahahahahaha.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

moehahahahahhah....'piece of cake man!!'.

Seriously...it's not going to happen unless the change comes from within. But seriously serious: the US is not going to walk away and give up control of the oil they've established now, or the strategic advantage that control of Iraq will give them in the region. It's too precious.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

^^Good observation. Still its costing us a crap loud in terms of money and lives to keep that strategic advantage.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

Your industrial and political elite seem to think it's wortht the cost mate....

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[quote=Yao;401862]Your industrial and political elite seem to think it's wortht the cost mate....[/quote]

No doubt.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[quote=Yao;401722]moehahahahahhah....'piece of cake man!!'.

Seriously...it's not going to happen unless the change comes from within. But seriously serious: the US is not going to walk away and give up control of the oil they've established now, or the strategic advantage that control of Iraq will give them in the region. It's too precious.[/quote]

yeah, the nation building thing will definitely not happen. No nation at any point anywhere on the world has ever succeeded in militarily occupying another nation and recreating its entire culture, economy, and political process in a few short years. If Bush does seriously think that he can do it, he is WAY more arrogant and stupid than any of us ever even imagined.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

spot on. But he doesn't think he can do that, he just wants a govt there that he can control, and he has already set the conditions for his support to this clique in charge now. The moment they don't listen to him, he'll drop them and get himself another set of puppets to rule the country.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

I mean come on...everyone know democratic freedoms are what everyone wants.;)

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[quote=thesightless;401338] .......

the only thing about this waste of a war on behalf of a waste of humanity that i stand behind is that running is the last fucking thing we should do. we caused the mess, we owe it to the future generation and the general concept of peace to stick it out until the government can operate without the fear of al sadr's buddies killing thier families.[/quote]

yep - I agree with that entirely (although should never have been there to begin with)

it doesnt look pretty does it.

It still freaks me out - that they can find 80 odd bodies in one 24 hour period around Bagdad - can you imagine the furore and hysteria that would happen if even 10 or 20 bodies were found in washington/New York/settle (wherever) . Its almost incomprehensible - to live in that kind of fear and expect everyday people to 'stand up' to the insurgents. What kind of life is that?

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

^A crapy life.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

At the cost of 100 Americans a month and $200 Milllion per day, the only thing we owe is to ourselves, to put an end to this madness. The biggest problem is how to maintain some sort of foothold in the region in order to create a buffer between Iran and Syria/Lebanon, since we had to oust Saddam who was already doing that.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

I guess we could invent a synthetic oil so we wouldn't need that part of the world. Just a thought.

Re: Bush challenges Democrats to offer plan for Iraq

[QUOTE=Miroslav;401588]Whether or not he fully admits it, the only "goal" by default that Bush has right now by staying there is the goal of nation-building.

That means that all Bush has to do is:

1. killing all the opposition(s) and create peace
2. build all of the infrastructure and get the economy to work
3. create all of the civic/governmental/institutional processes that lead to the democratically oriented outcomes he wants to see
4. change the Iraqi peoples' opinions, values, and cultural characteristics that they have cultivated over generations for thousands of years, so that they embrace his American-style democratic system now.

:)

".......MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!....."

bwaaahahahahahahahaha.[/QUOTE]

Agreed that that seems to be what we're doing now -- however, remember this?

[QUOTE]"I don't think our troops should be used for what's called nation building."

• George W. Bush, Second Presidential Debate, 2000[/QUOTE]

:roll: