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Turkish membership of the EU?

28 durable postsStarted 2006-10-20Latest 2006-11-09
#34112Post 1 of 28

Turkey has been pushing for a long time to become a member of the EU. The formal application to join the European Community—the organisation that has since developed into the European Union—was made on April 14, 1987. Turkey was officially recognised as a candidate for membership on December 10, 1999 at the Helsinki summit of the European Council, having been an Associate Member since 1963. The negotiations have started on October 3, 2005, a process that is likely to take at least a decade to complete.

[B]Issues and problems regarding membership[/B]

Their possible future accession is now the central controversy of the ongoing enlargement of the European Union. An overview of the issues at hand:

  • Differences in fundamental values and culture between a predominantly Muslim country (99.8% of the population) with current dominantly Christian and non-religious EU members, all of which are historically Christian.

  • The Turkish government's refusal to officially recognize the state of Cyprus, a current E.U. member, technically nullifies any negotiations and promises made between Turkey and the E.U., and is the greatest obstacle to Turkey's accession to the E.U., much before other issues.

  • Only 3% of Turkey's territory lies in geographical Europe. Furthermore, the Turkish capital is not in Europe, but, like the smaller member state Cyprus, in Asia. Turkey's membership would mean that the European Union's external borders would now reach Middle Eastern nations such as Syria, Iraq and Iran.

  • Turkey's large size and poverty. Turkey would upon accession represent an expansion almost equal in population to that of the 2004 Enlargement while the Turkish economy has been known for very unstable growth and sharp recessions despite some recent improvement. Many question whether the EU can support and "absorb" such a large and poor state, and many member states are wary of a potentially huge wave of poor Turkish immigration. (note: when Eastern European countries like Poland joined, some countries worried about immigration waves too. This was even the case in the early days of the united Europe when Portugal and Spain joined)

  • Turkey's large political power once in the Union. Its almost 70 million inhabitants will bestow it the second largest number of representatives in the European Parliament, after Germany. With the current rate of population increase some fear it might even surpass Germany by the time of accession; thus drastically altering make up of the European Parliament.

  • Many have continuing doubts on the commitment of the Turkish state to democracy and human rights, and its ability to reach European standards in these issues as gender equality, political freedom and minority rights

So much for the reservations and issues. That's not what this thread is about. Imagine that Turkey complies to all of our minimum standards and conditions regarding economy, democracy and human rights, would it then be a good idea to let the country join the Union?

[B]Arguments pro membership[/B]

Turkey as an EU member would be a good buffer against fundamentalist threats coming from the ME. Moreover, it would exclude the possibility of the country ever becoming a fundi islamic nation.

Apart from that, a muslim country in the EU could bring the EU and other muslim countries closer together which could have a positive effect on diplomacy and conflict handling. These are the main reasons why the Bush administration has been lobbying in favor of (swift) accession

[B]Arguments contra membership[/B]

On the other hand you can ask yourself if the above is enough to justify Turkey's accession. We've just had a massive englargement of the Union to the east, confronting us with the fact that the current organisation of decission making isn't adapted to such a large Union. The Constitution could've solved that, but as you know it made a crash landing and is in the fridge for the time being. At this time further expansion would mean the downfall of the Union as a whole. That's why the chairman of the European Commission, Barosso, said that after the accession of Bulgaria and Romania in 2007 a further expansion is not possible before the political structure of the Union is modified.

Moreover, I have a problem with prioritizing Turkey's membership procedure while stopping other country's procedures. Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia and Montenegro for instance are closer to Brussels and would benefit a lot more from membership as it would be a push in the back to get their political and economical structures organised and to solve ethnic tensions in the region. It has only been somewhat like 10 years since these countries became independant after Yugoslavia collapsed and they're still in the middle of getting everything "on the road." Imo they deserve membership more than Turkey.

Apart from that, you can't deny that Turkey doesn't really have cultural, historical or geographical links with Europe like the other members have. You can ask yourself where the real "borders" of Europe are. At a certain point the EU will have to draw the line and stop expanding. Imo beyond the Caucasus in the North East and the Balkan peninsula in the South East you're not in Europe anymore. If you ask me allowing Turkey to become member is a bit exagerated in that perspective.

Finally there's the public opinion. During the past few years the EU citizens have lost (a part of) their faith in the Union due (in part) to the rapid expansion. The EU was originally created by six founding states in 1958, but has grown to its current size of 25 member states. There were five successive enlargements during this period, with the largest in 2004, when 10 new member states joined. A growing number of people have lost insight into what the EU actually is and who all the members actually are. Furthermore, a large part of the population is against Turkish membership. Forcing that down the citizen's throats would damage the EU a lot internally imo.

In other words: I'm not radically opposed to Turkish membership since it has some benefits, but at this point I'm not at all in favor either. Maybe someone else here has an other opinion on the matter, so let's hear it!

(Btw, sorry for the long ass post, but I wanted to provide some essential info and facts for those who don't live in Europe)

#732689Post 2 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

shame we cant all call each other earthlings....

#732693Post 3 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

^^^ in an ideal world, you know...

Sure would like to hear your opinion on the matter Sean. I wonder how Americans see this in relation to fundamentalism and muslim terrorism...

#732698Post 4 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

you really want it.

ill keep it as simple as i can and you can ask in depth as to what you see.

  1. i want the USA to get a government not as agressive, but in ways, more aggressive in pushingpeace and eliminating ppl like the taleban, the ICU and the shit in africa....not looking for reason to fight, but taking those who give a reason.

  2. then i want to see north and central and south america get on the same page as the EU did. start here in NY and work south.

  3. then, even if we cant get these two continents together, i want to the the US, canada and mexico, combine in a way with the EU, to form one giant global organization dedicated to stability first, peace second, and force only when neccessary for getting rid of ppl like kim jong and others. (i.e. people looking to create rifts as opposed to finding a common ground.).

  4. asia, for the most part, after ww2, got its shit together, even with all the tiffs and the taiwan situation, they have rarely pushed each other towards violence. getting them on involved would be a great way to apply pressure to the toilet region west of india and east of europe.

  5. allow the middle east, if they are truly dedicated to following a stricter veriosn of life, to act in isolation. create a trade programme for fuel, and keep it based upon that, no more aid, no more humanitarian efforts. if they want to destroy thier people b/c some stupid asshat wrote a fictional book about a guy who wears a bath towel on his head, so be it. we no longer need to give money to those seeking to erode and kill our lifestyles and freedoms.

  6. i.e. an equal, worldwide goal of power sharing, devotion to peace, and elimination of problems. one common army like the UN has whereas troops from boston, london, berlin and tokyo operate under one flag. and for one flag. ill put a picture of earth from the space station on the flag.

#732961Post 5 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

I'm frantically opposed to Turkey joining the Union, mainly based on their disrespect of human rights, not recognizing Cyprus (and not even trying to come to a solution). Looking from the union's side, I don't think expansion is a good thing at all at this moment, even Romania and Bulgaria joining it is something I don't like. This is simply because it's clear to see that the rest of the union (predominantly the 'old' part) is still coming to terms with the last batch that joined - we're having discussions on labour migration and whatnot over the last batch, and the new one is already marching in.

For most people, the expansion is taking place way too fast - and I agree: an economic body such as the EU must stabilize itself after expansion in order to avoid internal conflicts. But it's almost like they're pushing the expansion down our throats, and while I do think that the balkan and Eastern European countries can be a great assett to the EU in both cultural and economic terms, this needs to be done with care.

Regarding Turkey, there is another catch when it comes to the European fear of Islam: the problem is [I]not in Turkey itself[/I], but lies in the fact that when it would become a member state, extremist groups that have not had a chance under the current Turkish regime can easily cross borders into countries that aren't as strict on those groups (Holland for example), and deploy their activities there with possibly disastrous consequences. Extremists have far less freedom in Turkey than they do in most European countries, so the EU members themselves should get a much better checking system in place before they even think of letting Turkey in - it might become a favoured passage of many ill-willing groups into the EU itself...

#734339Post 6 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

No for me.

#734961Post 7 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

U got a reason to go with that?

#738054Post 8 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

60% against so far.

#738123Post 9 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

lower than i had expected to be honest, but as far as i know the US is specifically in favour of it since it might according to them provide a buffer against the ME Muslim states. Not to mention the weakening effect it might have (temporarily though) on the European economy, which is of course in the US's advantage. Not trying to bash here, simple geopolitics ;)

#738314Post 10 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

You got that right, yao. It most certainly is in our favor to have Turkey in the EU, but I think there may be another reason you overlook...Iraq. With everything going on there, the Kurds will walk away with a lot more power than they'd had previously. Helping Turkey into the EU may appease Turkey's feeling about that and also may appease the Kurds in Turkey not to get any ideas.

But alas, I'm against. The EU has grown too much too fast and they still have a long ways to go before they've successfully integrated the last round of entries, both economically and politically. Let alone the security issues that would arise with Turkey in the EU.

#738321Post 11 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

Spot on with the last remark, and I think your suggestion on the Kurds might also be a good point Ben...

#739878Post 12 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

The Kurds remark is indeed a good point, but I guess the shit with the PKK/violation of human rights is a reason to keep them out instead of giving them candy.

Why is "everyone" so anxious on hading out presents to Turkey in the first place? Serious question I'm asking myself and I guess the ME buffer might just be the answer to it.

Btw Yao, spot on about the geopolitics side of the story imo!

#739888Post 13 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

Definitly against!!!

#739896Post 14 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

Lemme guess Louis, you're from the Greek side?

#739902Post 15 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

[quote=KinKyJ;398231]Lemme guess Louis, you're from the Greek side?[/quote] Yeah!

#740138Post 16 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

:roflmao:

okay, you're the only one that doesn't even need a long explanation to vent his opinion here, lol

#743133Post 17 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

No for me, mainly for their treatment of the Kurds.

Also, if only 3% of the territory is actually in Europe, it's a bit silly isn't it?

#743147Post 18 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

it's all politics man, the Us wants that buffer (as does Europe itself), and I guess the latter is drooling over the economic opportunities out there: the last batch of eastern European countries was stretching it though, and they still want to add Romania and Bulgaria pretty soon too.

Remarkeable how principles seem to just dissapear when economics are on the line, although it seems that in the case of Turkey it will remain a stumbling block - they're already making mention of breaking off the negociations, which means throwing away 40 years of talks.

#746439Post 19 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

I don't want to be bad or sth, but Turkey definitly can't become an EU member. Check the daily news for god sake. Turkey faces increasing nationalism, continuing religious and ethnic discrimination, prosecution of dissenting, pacific opinions and excessive military involvement in politics. From my point of view, Turkey?s entry into the EU will have profound consequences on the future direction of the EU. I believe that the inclusion of such a large country with a 'different culture' and poor economy might make it extremely difficult for the EU to deepen its integration. What about the Cyprus issue! Turkey refuses to acknowledge the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Cyprus"][COLOR=black][B]Republic of Cyprus[/B][/COLOR][/URL] (an EU member), as the sole authority on the island, but instead recognises the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Republic_of_Northern_Cyprus"][COLOR=black][B]Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus[/B][/COLOR][/URL] in the North. Another issue is that Turkey and Turkish Cypriots, for 30 years rejected all UN proposals, but suddenly backed the 2004 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_plan"][B][COLOR=black]Annan plan[/COLOR][/B][/URL] aimed at reunification of the island, but was subsequently rejected by us (Greek Cypriots) on the grounds that it did not meet our needs. There are lots of other issues to mention but i think that those i mentioned above give a picture why Turkey cannot become an EU member!

#746513Post 20 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

^^^ I agree completely with that. How on earth can a country become member of a club of which one of the members is subject to a sea and air embargo?

On top of that, I don't like the Turks' attitude at all: now that the EU is being critical about Turkey, a growing number of Turks is losing its faith in the union and even started to "distrust" it. C'mon, what kinda bs is that???

#746857Post 21 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

Same as when you don't get something you really want and try to justify it by suddenly saying "It was a piece of crap anyway"...

#748083Post 22 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

Inderdediddelydoo partner, just like the way you talk about women :mrgreen:

#748250Post 23 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

Always. Those that reject me are whores, standard.

#748479Post 24 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

[B] EU sets deadline for Turkey on Cyprus imports[/B]

[B]BRUSSELS, Belgium[/B] (Reuters) -- The European Commission gave Turkey until mid-December on Wednesday to open its ports to shipping from Cyprus or face consequences for its European Union membership talks.

"Failure to implement its obligations in full will affect the overall progress in the negotiations," the EU executive said in a critical report on Turkey's progress.

Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said the EU had decided "to give a chance for the diplomatic efforts to find a solution" on the Cyprus trade issue.

"The Commission will make relevant recommendations ahead of the December European Council if Turkey has not fulfilled its obligations," the report said.

The 25-member EU executive criticized a slowdown in reforms since Ankara began talks last year but stopped short of recommending consequences for its accession process, leaving the decision to EU leaders when they meet on December 14-15.

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan ruled out a collapse of the EU talks, expected to last at least a decade, but acknowledged some negotiating 'chapters' might by held back.

"There is no chance of a rupture or anything like that, in my view. A suspension, a breakdown of consultations, the train halting at the station, these are not possible," he told Turkish reporters, adding: "There could be a slowdown on chapters."

[URL="http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/08/turkey.eu.reut/index.html"]Full story[/URL]

#748825Post 25 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

So they will open the ports, but not before they've rapidly implemented a number of policies on import/export that will strongly disadvantage and discourage Cyprian traders and companies...it's all in the game.

#749174Post 26 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

What I was thinking: from a purely legal point of view, don't they indirectly recognize Cyprus if they make a customs deal with them? I mean, you can't make a deal with a party you don't recognize in the first place, right?

#749176Post 27 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

[QUOTE=KinKyJ;405335]What I was thinking: from a purely legal point of view, don't they indirectly recognize Cyprus if they make a customs deal with them? I mean, you can't make a deal with a party you don't recognize in the first place, right?[/QUOTE] hmmm...shall we apply this same rationale to the Palestinians?

#749180Post 28 of 28

Re: Turkish membership of the EU?

^^^ that's comparing apples with lemons imo

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