[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=405238&in_page_id=1811&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5[/url]

Wow...

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[URL]http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=3822&&&edition=2&ttl=20060915193919[/URL]

it will take awhile, but read that.

typical reaction. its OK for us to go batshit, but you guys cant open your mouth. hopefully, it passes, but sadly i think there will be riots and deaths realted to this..... they really cant just calm down and realize that the world is a different place who doesnt want to accept thier beliefs on how to live in society.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

I think you are right about this not passing without more riots and what not.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

its fucked up. ppl cant quote someone that dies a few hundred years ago, but a certain governmental leader is encouraging ppl to make cartoons to trash the holocost. (but he says it didnt happen, catch 22 huh)

Re: Pope insults Muslims

Some very interesting comments in that bbc post.

This one is good.

[quote]Anyone who takes the trouble to read the Pope's speech in its entirety - I have done so in both English and the German original - will notice firstly that the Pope was not actually discussing, let alone commenting on, Islam, and secondly that his intention was to comment - negatively - on Western secularism. That Western nations have wronged Muslims in the past I would willingly acknowledge, yet the reaction to this speech speaks of ignorance, even stupidity, and an apparent persecution complex [B]Alex[/B], London
[/quote]

and this one

[QUOTE]seems there are persons of the muslim community, including its leaders, that are too quick to judge .. or am i the one too quick to judge here? :) if anyone gives comments while feeling angry .. that person should restrain himself first and then make the comment befitting a Muslim or a Christian - with understanding, wisdom and no judging. [B]Joe[/B], Vevey
[/QUOTE]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

my fav was

[QUOTE]its time for the religion of peace to show it. throughout the geographical region it encompasses, we see only violence and no outrage[/QUOTE]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

here is one from another point of view...

[QUOTE]This hypocrisy from the West is just ridiculous. When someone utters anti-Semitic remarks he is attacked from all corners by the West and all its media (remember poor old Mel Gibson)... BUT when we Muslims show our disapproval to an anti-Islamic comment, it is suddenly dubbed as an "overreaction"...... come-on people.... get out of this illusion that the West is a pack of saints.....

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CALL THIS AN OVERREACTION!! [URL="http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/profile.jspa?userID=5371426&edition=2&ttl=20060915193919"]Taimoor Mahmood[/URL], Singapore
[/QUOTE]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

i saw that one too. but when mel gibson or pat robertson open thier traps, most of us either ignore them and let it go, or call them a moron and tell them to shut up. we dont run down to the local church or synagouge(sp) and riot, fight and burn shit.

tell me one normal person who thinks mel gibson's religous views are normal. he is a SICK actor though, but then again so is cruise.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

damn. now the vatican has stepped up security according to the BBC. they cant be that stupid could they? wow could you imagine........

Re: Pope insults Muslims

I don't want to even contemplate the idea.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=thesightless;376009]damn. now the vatican has stepped up security according to the BBC. they cant be that stupid could they? wow could you imagine........[/quote]

your talking about a group of people who use religion as an excuse to stone a woman to death for numerous evil things, like having sex out of wedlock...

could they attack the vatican? wouldn't put it past 'em.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

Here's my personal opinion. The muslims as a general community need to back the fuck off and get their own house in order before they go demanding any more apologies from anyone else.

I recognize that there are untold millions of muslims around the world who are decent, peace-loving people. But the facts of the matter are:

1. There is a significant portion of overall muslim society that is extremist and violent, and/or that supports these ideas. Extremism is so pervasive in many muslim-dominated regions of the world that it is difficult to separate it from local culture and politics.

2. The muslim nations and leaders are not doing SHIT about it.

I've had about enough of these islamic people who demand apologies from the rest of the world while at the same time remain silent (if not cheer) when members of their own communities commit atrocities against the rest of the world. Whatever the Pope says, I don't see him asking anyone to strap on a bomb and kill themselves and others in the name of Christianity. It would be nice to see these big islamic talking political heads show HALF as much indignation over the extremist members of their own societies who are actively taking steps to kill everyone who isn't a fundamentalist nutjob like them. When Ahmadinejad says that the holocaust never happened and that Israel needs to be obliterated, those same islamic blabbermouths don't say SHIT. I don't see them at all concerned with how Christians feel when they do their victory dances caught on CNN camera after terrorists have killed another batch of innocent people.

So, no offense, but until they address their own society, they can shut the hell up. Insofar as they take no action and don't even express any indignation against their own home-grown terrorists, they are complicit with them.

We shouldn't give them any apologies. And if they refuse to take any action against the extremist elements of their own society that threaten others, then the rest of the world should. Even if that means that we have to use force. The difference is that we'd be reacting in self defense and in the name of future peace, whereas the extremists are killing in the name of ruthless imposition of their intolerant religious beliefs on everybody.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

bro, im actually clapping after reading that one. honest and true.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

bottom line you can't say shit without SOMEONE being offended by it.

Ever notice though that when God is brought in vain, some Christians may denounce it but it's just a bit of hot air really, whereas as soon as Mohammed is cast in a negative light, some people go off the fucking deep end?

Re: Pope insults Muslims

for the 4th year in a row. No.

waitasecond, are they overreacting again?

Re: Pope insults Muslims

no one is saying shit man.....read the whole page for a second...i would have hoped that you pseudo intelectuals would take pride in having an objective discussion or atleast one which is not so one ended...its just emotional reaction perpetuated by emotional reaction....and this dichotomy between 'them' and how they are a fucked up 'society' haha..common....is there really a need to dehuamanize and disassociate so badly...you would be surprised how much the u.s constitution and bill of rights coincides with quranic teachings...or islamic discourse...the difference is very superficial and i dont think this vilolece or whatever is because of some crusade to spread the religion....thats a mis understanding its motivated by a sense of pride coupled with alot of illetracy and iggnorance...and for most of them quite a bit of oppression and miserable poverty and hoplessness.. just because you live protected little life in front of your computer listning to tunes and going out listning to john fukin digweed every weekend doesnt give you the kind of perspective you need to talk sense in these forums...please...

oh wait that struck a note did it...was i talking about you? oh wait did i offend diggers?...pissed are ya..want to fuk me up and make me look ridiculous so you can go on thinking your right and muslims are the problem.... reflect brother(s)...reflect..

Re: Pope insults Muslims

ok...since you are apparently not just the "pseudo intellectual" sitting at a computer listening to John fucking Digweed like the rest of us, maybe you should better enlighten us as to the objective discussion you think we should be having.

So, if you could please answer the following:

1. What is the intent of radical Islamists violent acts in America, Europe, and Asia (think back to the Bali bombings, etc.)?

2. What do radical Islamists want from others in the world who don't share their views?

I look forward to your objective answers.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

1. death
2. death

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=thesightless;376076]bro, im actually clapping after reading that one. honest and true.[/quote]

Thanks, Sean... you and me, we can hold it down and keep it real on this forum 8)

Re: Pope insults Muslims

Right, is everybody done sucking the other one's dick? :p;) [quote=malayday;376191]no one is saying shit man.....read the whole page for a second...i would have hoped that you pseudo intelectuals would take pride in having an objective discussion or atleast one which is not so one ended...its just emotional reaction perpetuated by emotional reaction....and this dichotomy between 'them' and how they are a fucked up 'society' haha..common....is there really a need to dehuamanize and disassociate so badly...you would be surprised how much the u.s constitution and bill of rights coincides with quranic teachings...or islamic discourse...the difference is very superficial and i dont think this vilolece or whatever is because of some crusade to spread the religion....thats a mis understanding its motivated by a sense of pride coupled with alot of illetracy and iggnorance...and for most of them quite a bit of oppression and miserable poverty and hoplessness.. just because you live protected little life in front of your computer listning to tunes and going out listning to john fukin digweed every weekend doesnt give you the kind of perspective you need to talk sense in these forums...please...

oh wait that struck a note did it...was i talking about you? oh wait did i offend diggers?...pissed are ya..want to fuk me up and make me look ridiculous so you can go on thinking your right and muslims are the problem.... reflect brother(s)...reflect..[/quote]malay, first of all a little tap on the fingers. I understand that you had an "ow please not this shit again" moment when you posted the above. Hell, I have that feeling quite a lot when I some posts in this forum, so I can relate to it. However, using that tone of "voice" has no other effect than people being offended and you being regarded as an arrogant turd. Result: the point you're making is being missed completely. That's a shame, especially because I agree with a large part of what you're saying.

I follow the points in this thread a long way, meaning that I agree with the fact that people shouldn't have such long toes and a ultra short fuse. Einstein once said that "all is relative" and at the end of the day, that's a fact that stands like a brick house.

To me it doesn't matter which religion is being "insulted." I hate muslims who keep on nagging about cartoons and what not just as much as jews nagging about the injustice being done to them during WWII...

However...

Given the current events (and those of the past years) on the international scene, I understand the reactions to this quote perfectly. Since the aftermath of 9/11 it has become a trend to bash islam as being a religion of hate and violence. I've made my point about the effect of generalising numerous times, so I'm not going to go into that again. Just read my previous posts on that subject.

The judgement whether the papal quote is insulting or not left aside, I think this has got to be one of the largest blunders a pope has ever made in recent history. In a time when religious issues are highly sensitive, it's just asking for trouble. I think pope Benedictus has proven his critics right: he's a very intelligent man with great knowledge of the scriptures, but he's unwordly as well. I honestly ask myself what the added value of that quote was in his speech anyway.

So what is the result of this "unfortunate" incident?

• Benedictus has robbed himself from the position of highly respected moderator in the debate between the different parties. Another missed opportunity to get out of this crisis.
• Speaking as the head of the catholic church, he has given the fundamentalists the perfect "told-ya-so-excuse" to justify their hatred against not only the West and the jews, but against the entire christian community as well.
• The fact that "allied" muslim countries react to the statement as well, is a dangerous sign. Turkey for instance is a democratic state with a clear division between religion and government, yet they expressed their disapproval too. If this polarisation doesn't stop, we're going to wake up one fine day and realise that once again the world is divided in two blocks.

More oil on the fire...

[quote=Miroslav;376216]ok...since you are apparently not just the "pseudo intellectual" sitting at a computer listening to John fucking Digweed like the rest of us, maybe you should better enlighten us as to the objective discussion you think we should be having.

So, if you could please answer the following:

1. What is the intent of radical Islamists violent acts in America, Europe, and Asia (think back to the Bali bombings, etc.)?

2. What do radical Islamists want from others in the world who don't share their views?

I look forward to your objective answers.[/quote]I think Sean answered that perfectly, but forgot "world domination". Anyway, I think it's hardly relevant Miro. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything in maladay's post which defends the fundamentalists or their actions.

I just ask myself who in our camp (apart from the weapon and aero industry) profits from chasing moderate and democratic minded muslims into the camp of the radicals...

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=KinKyJ;376345]I think Sean answered that perfectly, but forgot "world domination". Anyway, I think it's hardly relevant Miro. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything in maladay's post which defends the fundamentalists or their actions.[/quote]

Point taken, he doesn't explicitly defend them. I guess I just take away from his writing that he disagrees with anyone who attempts to call out any part of the Muslim community about the religious extremism that is festering there and plaguing the rest of the world. Perhaps I need to read more careully...

[quote=KinKyJ;376345] I just ask myself who in our camp (apart from the weapon and aero industry) profits from chasing moderate and democratic minded muslims into the camp of the radicals...[/quote]

What I'm curious about is: where are these moderate and democratic minded muslims, and if there are significant numbers of them, why do muslim societies appear to be decidedly UN-moderate and un-democratic? If you look at Islamic societies, it's hard to deny that repressive fundamentalism is pretty pervasive throughout their social structures, down to their laws and institutions.

The pope says some dumb thing, or a Danish cartoonist draws a picture, and tens of millions of Muslims around the world are ready to riot and demand apologies. The Saudi Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice kill some women or children, and suddenly there is no rioting or outrage. Why?

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=Miroslav;376353]Point taken, he doesn't explicitly defend them. But the message I generally take away from his writing is: any time anyone attempts to call out any part of the Muslim community about the religious extremism in their society and how it plagues the rest of the world, it's apparently always the non-Muslim's fault for being too emotional, not understanding enough about how the Constitution and the Quran have similarities, or whatever... I don't buy it. It's BS.[/quote]You're right, that's class A bs! We might show too little understanding or know too little about the islam, but there's a difference between a believer feeling insulted (which I can understand) and fundamentalists seeking world domination.

The Qur'an and the US Constitution remark belongs in the same drawer imo. If you'd say muslim values and christian values show many similarities, I'd agree. But comparing a religious text to a constitution... Nah, doesn't go for me.

[quote]I recognize that not all muslims are radicals. But if you look at their societies, I think it is hard to deny that radicalism and intolerance is pretty damn pervasive down to the very institutions and guiding principles of their societies. I recognize that the US is no paragon of perfect virtue and justice, and that one needs to be careful to avoid a paradox here of being "highly intolerant of the intolerant people". But when their problematic elements start leaving just their societies and spreading out into the world, I think something ought to be done to stop it.[/quote]Correctemundo. I wonder why it is that there aren't more muslim countries like Turkey... Ow yes, I forgot: a Khalashnikov is more persuasive than common sense... Imo the ME needs more Ataturks.

[quote]And some of the liberal intellectual paralysis on the topic is astounding to me.[/quote]You kinda lost me there... Come again?

[quote]The pope says some inappropriate thing, or a Danish cartoonist draws something, and millions of Muslims are ready to riot and demand apologies. Saudi police let children burn to death in a school because they are not properly dressed in accordance to Islamic law, and suddenly you don't hear a THING out of any Muslims. Where are these moderate and democratic Muslims, and why are they not rioting and demanding apologies?[/quote]WOW! When did that happen? That's repulsive! :shock::shock::shock:

But to answer your question: I guess you can compare the situation to the Germans under Nazi rule. Everyone tagged along then too even though not all Germans were Nazis. If the police can let kids die in a fire, what else are they capable of? I'm not saying it's ok nor am I looking for excuses. To be honest, I wonder what I would do if I lived in the ME... I guess I'd keep my ass out of trouble as much as possible to protect myself and my family...

As for the moderate muslims living here: I think they should get themselves organised and voice their opinion instead of scratching their asses (with the left hand of course ;))

Re: Pope insults Muslims

haha ...left hand..yeah.. your right man i guess sometimes i say shit which will only enrage...but thats why i asked people to reflect...your totally right about everyone sucking each ohers dicks here man...some of these threads are full of shit layered upon shit....so its sad to see..because this 'layering of shit' will surely lead to the firm belief that the shit is true..you know what i mean...bullshit supported by more bullshit and eventually no voice of reason..of reflective understanding or even an attept to do so... as as far as mirosav was asking the intent all i wanted to make clear was (according to the discussions up to that response) that it seemed like the intent is percieved to be a sort of imposition of beliefs and way of life..and that is simply not true...is it death then?....perhaps it is...is it terror then..plausibly and assumably...but why?....for what?...for the sake of it....thats farce man...not possible....the deeper reasons is something that needs heavy speculation and in depth evaluating....its not just a or just b....and it is definatley not islam..it just isnt...so lets not belittle our own intelect please... we are supposed to be cool...

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=FM;376169]bottom line you can't say shit without SOMEONE being offended by it.

[/quote]

This is true.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

they killed a nun....... :what

is it OK for us to riot now? can i kill a cleric? can i firebomnb a mosque? can i parade in the streets? time for us to react like they do.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=malayday;376405]..bullshit supported by more bullshit and eventually no voice of reason..of reflective understanding or even an attept to do so... as as far as mirosav was asking the intent all i wanted to make clear was (according to the discussions up to that response) that it seemed like the intent is percieved to be a sort of imposition of beliefs and way of life..and that is simply not true...is it death then?....perhaps it is...is it terror then..plausibly and assumably...but why?....for what?...for the sake of it....thats farce man...not possible....the deeper reasons is something that needs heavy speculation and in depth evaluating....[/quote]

YOU still haven't said shit. For someone who is so cocky about others just layering "shit upon shit" in here, your statements seem to be surprisingly devoid of any meaningful content. Perhaps I've missed your point, but what I'm getting from your response above is:

1. You say we need to stop talking bullshit and have a "voice of reason" and/or "reflective understanding" of the Middle Eastern situation, and of the fundamentalists' intent.

2. You apparently have no clue what their intent is. But you are certain that their intent ISN'T "imposition of beliefs and way of life". And then you ramble on a bit about a few things that it MIGHT be and conclude by saying that we need to spend more time in "heavy speculation".

So, to summarize, it appears that you have nothing to offer. Don't seem to support non-Islamic nations taking action...don't seem to support Islamic nations in their actions, either...you just want to heavily speculate about something, but you don't know what. Do you really even have a point?

Shit, man...get a spine and take a stance. I'm just glad we don't have you in any elected office. You could be watching terrorists detonate your own family members on a bus somewhere, and you'd still be sitting around pseudo-intellectually jacking off about how you need more time for "heavy speculation". :roll:

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[url]http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/17/060917085717.hyi6hm06.html[/url]

Ridiculous.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

and he has apologized.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5353208.stm[/url]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=Lorn;376472][URL]http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/17/060917085717.hyi6hm06.html[/URL]

Ridiculous.[/quote]

Agreed... And frankly, I'm sorry, but there IS a link between Islam as it is practiced in Islamic nations today and violence. Those same Iranians who take this opportunity to make up a story and further shore up the Islamic ranks against the US and Israel are also the ones who are brutally cracking down on women, dissidents, etc. in their own nations right now. And they're doing it in the name of what they at least claim as their religious and cultural mandate.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

The world is big enough for all of us...I just don't understand the need for any of this crap on either side. I guess its in our blood or something.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=Lorn;376610]The world is big enough for all of us...I just don't understand the need for any of this crap on either side. I guess its in our blood or something.[/quote]

It is in our blood, in a way...it's a part of human nature. Unfortunately, it sometimes takes only one side to start a fight.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[URL]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showpost.php?p=376719&postcount=54[/URL] ;)

Re: Pope insults Muslims

What the fuck are these muslims whining about now? that they are not following a vicious and violent religion? Great, so they prove it by burning effigies of the pope and chanting for his death, attacking catholic churches, and even shooting an Italian nun! :evil:

Re: Pope insults Muslims

I agree with many people's comments that I too am sick of these violent Islam extremists and their reactions. I saw on the news that now they're demanding the Pope be executed. Could you imagine if they actually did kill the Pope? I just can't believe our leaders tolerate these threats and actions. Are we really that weak in the U.S and Europe that we let things like this happen?

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=superdave;376876]I agree with many people's comments that I too am sick of these violent Islam extremists and their reactions. I saw on the news that now they're demanding the Pope be executed. Could you imagine if they actually did kill the Pope? I just can't believe our leaders tolerate these threats and actions. Are we really that weak in the U.S and Europe that we let things like this happen?[/quote]

Certainly in Britain we are, we seem to bend over backwards to lick the arses of these evil bastards, and our country is flooded with them :evil:

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[URL]http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23367232-details/The+Pope+must+die%2C+says+Muslim/article.do[/URL]

Another ridiculous news item..:roll:

Re: Pope insults Muslims

two words.

BORDER FENCE.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

on a completely, [B][I][U]NON serious thought[/U][/I][/B]...

im going to get a rather large group of hasidic jews, and christians with bibles and rosaries in hand, and head down to the NY embassies of iran, saudi arabia, pakistan, egypt, and then we are going to burn efficigies of imams and then take the koran and jump all over it. it sounds good? why not act identical to them so no one can say the other is overreacting? i think it would be funny in a sarcastic fuck you kind of way

Re: Pope insults Muslims

Would be funny...but we would need to be prepared for the consequences.

Re: Pope insults Muslims

[quote=thesightless;376898]on a completely, [B][I][U]NON serious thought[/U][/I][/B]...

im going to get a rather large group of hasidic jews, and christians with bibles and rosaries in hand, and head down to the NY embassies of iran, saudi arabia, pakistan, egypt, and then we are going to burn efficigies of imams and then take the koran and jump all over it. it sounds good? why not act identical to them so no one can say the other is overreacting? i think it would be funny in a sarcastic fuck you kind of way[/quote]

Oh no, can't do that, that would be provoking racial hatred, however if it was the other way round....

Makes me fucking sick! :x