dude, im sorry, and this goes especially out to kinky, i know its gonna piss you off. probably miroslav too. sorry again.

but

EDIT.............second thoughts here............... lets just say i find the religion despciable at its heart.

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance[/URL]

i heard about the law, but never knew the name. but now the parties within the country are fighting against reforming this law....... fuck that. these people who stand behind keeping this law , and i dont give a damn what thier beleifs are, should be shot dead. no trial, no attempt at understanding, just shot dead. fuck.........its disgusting.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Disgusting stuff...

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exactly, and the fact that the people there are fighting to prevent a return to the anglo-saxon based law (law of every country not controlled by an imam/sheik/or cleric), makes me think there is more to the region than militants that give it a bad name.

basically, if a woman is raped, and there arent 4 men who witnessed penetration, the woman can be hung for adultry...sick

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Its this kind of stuff that makes people like us make generalizations about an entire culture. Truly horrific and I hope it is only isolated pockets of fanatics who follow these laws, because if it is wide spread I can only shudder in horror at the outcome of confrontation, which seems to be inevitable in this day and age.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

nope. its a national law that was imposed when the country islamicized 30 or so years ago...... the fact that the people there are fighting the gov'ts attempt to reform it..... SICK.

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[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5337752.stm[/url]

Here is an article about this

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

you know what, just give them back hussein, and put a border fence around everything between greece, russia and india.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

One culture is in the 21st century AD the other 21st century BC Hopefully this ordinance will go the way of the Dodo At least people are getting pissed about it I had no idea the ordinance even existed The process may be slow at time but enlightenment is the key

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

^^Good point about changes being slow

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Sean, what pisses me off is not your opinion, but the fact that a guy with a brains and a sharp opinion like you is too blind/dumb/something else to see the difference between a religion and those who speak/act in its name. Or to say it like it is: abuse it at will.

The Qur'an clearly states that man and woman are equal. Yes, the man is the head of the family, but with that authority comes the obligation and responsability to honor his wife, protect her and take care of her.

"... And live honorably with them. If you don't love them, you don't love something in which Allah has put a lot of goodness." (Qur'an 4:19, free translation)

There are plenty of guidings like this to find in the Qur'an, but I'm not gonna bother searching and citing them all...

That's the theory. Sadly men seem to have a gene which forces them to seek domination over others by all means. And in general women are the first ones to take that "friendly fire." In all cultures, religions and civilisations this has been the case. Just think of the Inquisition and the witch hunting for example. Or less drastic and less ancient history: the fact that women still get paid less than men for doing the same job.

As for the Hudood Ordinance, well of course it's disgusting. But I'm sure that you'll agree that - when having read the above excerpt from the Qur'an - it's also very "un-muslim". So when then is it that shit like this is still carried out in the name of Allah? Not because the islam is a barbaric religion, it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with Sharia. I'll explain...

Sharia (and not "the" Sharia) is the legal framework within which public and some private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It's often thought that all muslims live by the Sharia rules, but this is a misconception. All muslims live by the rules set out by Allah and his prophet (basicly the Qur'an in other words) whereas only muslims living in islamic states are subjected to Sharia.

What I'm getting at is that it has certain laws which are regarded as divinely ordained, concrete and timeless for all relevant situations (for example, the ban against drinking liquor as an intoxicant). But it also has certain laws which are extracted based on principles established by Islamic lawyers and judges (Mujtahidun). It's the latter source of litigation which makes the Hudood Ordinance possible together with any other measure which the "elite" deems necessary to keep a nation under the thumb. Keep your citizens dumb and affraid and they will do whatever you want. Yet another principle which has stood the test of time.

So yes Sean, the Hudood Ordinance is disgusting and I even dare to say blasphemy from a purely "Qur'anic" perspective. But bashing a world religion because some fools abuse it to dictate and kill people is just as disgusting if you ask me.

Don't take this as "try reading a book before you open your piehole", but you really should do some honest research on the islam I think. Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is power (the latter is a principle which is stressed very much in the first part of the Qur'an btw).

So final conclusion: religions aren't "retarded" or "digusting", human interpretations and the ideologies which come from that sometimes are.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

Well thought out and worded reply Kinky.

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Great points Kinky

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Thanks guys, I'm just trying to share some factual information in order to put an end to a few prejudices which hurt both muslims as non-muslims.

I admit I had a pretty fucked up perception of islam as well in the past. But that changed when Erzina told me she's muslima. She and her friends made me realise that not all muslims are hardlining twits in robes or burkas. Actually, the more I read (about) the Qur'an, the more common grounds I find with christianity.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

points are well taken, but it doesnt change my mind about it, the religion has nearly eliminated one other religion, is on the way to killing off buddism, the people who live where the religion is dominant are seething at the teeth to kill jews, thier heroes are mass murderers, and they continue to expand via the sword. oh yeah, cats and dogs are now banned in suadi arabia b/c they show western influence.

they(those in the ME) view erzina as a sinner as she doesnt follow quaran law above that of her home country (i forgot!) she is marrying a non muslim, she embraces western influence, and mixes with men. jsut look at her parents.

she is the exception, not them. they are controlling, violent and the population there stands behind them, or do we need to watch more parades where they wrap children in martyr clothing and prepare them for jihad.

im sorry, this last week has pushed me beyond the ''its only militants'' POV.

you have nasrallah on tv saying he wont hadn over those soldiers unless isreal releases a murderer b/c he is a hero within the muslim community.

there are signs of progress, currently notable in lebanon. the people in the north voiced out agaisnt hezz, the govt allowed isreal to operate , they got syria out, and they just helped the embassy staff. but in general, its fucked, they are fucked, and not worth the lives, effort or money, let them revert back to 2000BC. shit the king of bahrain was just sued for kidnapping kids and using them as slaves........

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=thesightless;375314]points are well taken, but it doesnt change my mind about it, the religion has nearly eliminated one other religion, is on the way to killing off buddism, the people who live where the religion is dominant are seething at the teeth to kill jews, thier heroes are mass murderers, and they continue to expand via the sword. oh yeah, cats and dogs are now banned in suadi arabia b/c they show western influence.[/quote]what religion are you talking about (the nearly eliminated one I mean)?

Listen, it's like that one-liner "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Same goes for religion.

If you think it's right to say that the [B]islam[/B] is responsible for killings and what not, I think it's fair to say that christianity is responsible for the death of 6 milion jews during WWII since the Nazis had the words "Got mit uns" on their belt. It isn't a secret either that the Vatican had close (but secret) relations with Hitler as well. And don't get me started on the cruelties carried out in the name of the Lord when we colonized Africa...

Most blatant example are of course the crusades. When charging on muslims, the crusaders yelled "God wants it." The muslims from their side yelled "Inch' Allah" (God wants it).

Of course the above is bullshit because the Bible doesn't command us to slaughter jews and muslims or abuse black people. But guess what? Neither does the Qur'an.

As for your statements about Erzina: I've copy pasted this thread and sent it to her. I think she's in a better position to give an intelligent answer to what you wrote.

[QUOTE] you have nasrallah on tv saying he wont hadn over those soldiers unless isreal releases a murderer b/c he is a hero within the muslim community.[/QUOTE]1. The murderer you're talking about is a hero in the HEZBOLLAH community, which - like I've already explained in another thread - might call itself "muslim", but sins against the principle that muslims can't kill other muslims (Qur'an). 2. Nasrallah doesn't give a shit about that guy being muslim or not. He's just trying to act tough towards the outside world as well as his own people after being humiliated by the Israeli army. 3. The kidnapping of the soldiers nor the imprissonement of the Lebanese guy have anything to do with religion, but everything with politics.

[QUOTE] there are signs of progress, currently notable in lebanon. the people in the north voiced out agaisnt hezz, the govt allowed isreal to operate , they got syria out, and they just helped the embassy staff. but in general, its fucked, they are fucked, and not worth the lives, effort or money, let them revert back to 2000BC. shit the king of bahrain was just sued for kidnapping kids and using them as slaves........[/QUOTE]Yup, there are indeed signs that the country wants to progress. So why do you say they're not worth the trouble then? Because you think Arabs are an inferior race or because you want the fundamentalists to gain another stronghold?

As for the king of Bahrein: if there's a link between islam and enslaving children, then there's also a link between christianity and child prostitution in South East Asia.

Once again, try to see the difference between what is really happening and what influencials from whatever side want you to think is happening.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

dude, why do you keep insinuating that i am saying a beleif system is physically killing ppl? the people are, they are just doing it for the most part on behalf, and in justification of, said beleif system. they use it as a crutch. i didnt say go town to town in america and kill muslims, i said the region is fucked and should have a fence put around it. as a whole the people there are so ass backward b/c of thier strict beleif. the religion they killed of would be the first religion. Z. it was the religion of the persian empire before sheiks decided to ''implement'' a new religion by force. this is also the caus eof the crusades. hebrew and christianity existed peacefully before the expansion and the crusades were a result of the war when the muslim agressors took jerusalem (everyone's holy land, not just theirs)

and yeah, you are right on politics, but the p09olitics are driven by the fact that the lack of an islamic state exists between gaza and golan to keep it simple. they hate jews, they dont just hate isrealis. they seem to be more leinient to christians in some areas b/c of the size of the christian population there.

and the quaran does call for the killing of others, read Q2 190-192, the most obvious, and the one verse singled out by the more vile ppl to justify the deaths. but it tells of forgiveness. forgiveness for those who convert. also they tend to point out verses Q9 verses 1-5 , which are defended by saying thier historical contexts are different, then why are they still literally being interpreted by masses to justify. im not opening this bottle of worms any more.

[quote]Yup, there are indeed signs that the country wants to progress. So why do you say they're not worth the trouble then? Because you think Arabs are an inferior race or because you want the fundamentalists to gain another stronghold? [/quote]

you keep putting words in my mouth bro. i say they arent worth the trouble beause 95% of the people arent in favor of biting the bullet and accepting peace with each other, the jews, the rest of the world. they want victory in the long run.

how can you ignore what is happening on 3 continents? it isnt isolated.

i know E is an AOK cat, she has to be to deal with you, but again, drop her off in saudi arabia and see what they think of her lifestlye.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

please man no one is putting words into your mouth you talk a load of crap some times bro...respect to you as a human being but kinky hit it one head when he said its not your opinion that offensive..its the fact that you have a sharp mind...your intelligent and interested..and yet your so blinded by your hate that you cant think straight..... i hope the very best for you...

on another note the hudood ordinance is a statute which exists in a country no more than 60 years old...its in the process of being demolished;...it was implemented by a man who's vision was twisted and fuked by the people he left in charge..and he was killed by the cia (isi) before he could fix the shit....the whipping and lashing does not actually happen or stoning or and cutting or burning or whatever....the unfortunate fact however is that there have been countless nimbers of women who have suffered terribly because of it....there is however NOTHING islamic about it....NOTHING....so dont talk about how much this "shows" how "dispicable" this religion is...at its core...you aint nothin but a hater g....

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=malayday;376193]....the whipping and lashing does not actually happen or stoning or and cutting or burning or whatever....the unfortunate fact however is that there have been countless nimbers of women who have suffered terribly because of it....[/quote]

Way to contradict yourself there. It's too bad you weren't there to personally set the women straight on all of that "whipping and stoning and cutting" stuff...I'm sure they were all just imagining things. smart guy..

Here's a few things I found in just five minutes of time on google. Before I go on, let me just save Malayday the time and tell you all now:

Ignore all of these articles. These articles are all just biased "pseudo intellectual" Western fantasy! Although some women somewhere may have suffered terribly for a while, there is NO pattern of systematic abuse against women, minorities, or political/religious dissidents in numerous Muslim societies throughout the world! Not in the REAL Islam, wherever that is. Religious police don't beat women in Saudi Arabia, Iran's clerics aren't cracking down on basic women's rights, the Taliban didn't mutilate women in Afghanistan, and all that "Honor Killing" crap you've heard about is just a joke. Got it?

Finally, if you must read these articles, keep in mind that there was no whipping, lashing, stoning, cutting, or burning or whatever of any of the women at any time.

Move along. Nothing to see here. It's America's fault. Stop being a hater. [B] "Afghanistan: Self-Immolation Of Women On The Rise In Western Provinces"[/B] [URL]http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/03/ea74ad8e-9b91-4cbd-b7f7-f13b521dce2b.html[/URL]

[B]"Afghanistan: Self-Immolation By Women In Herat Continues At Alarming Rate"[/B] [URL]http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/02/f287f1fb-4a6e-4a65-bf1c-d2d48e7e9a6f.html[/URL]

[B]"Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue"[/B] [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm[/URL]

[B]"Iran: police attack women's day celebration"[/B] [URL]http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/03/09/iran12832.htm[/URL]

[B]"Iran’s Islamists terrorise young women with acid"[/B] [URL]http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5152[/URL]

[B]"Amnesty: Iran to stone woman to death by end of month"[/B] [URL]http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8061[/URL]

[B]"Women ejected by force from Iran stadium" [/B][URL]http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6090[/URL]

[B]"Crackdown on women spreads to Iran’s provinces"[/B] [URL]http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7178[/URL] [B]"Iran to hang teenage girl attacked by rapists"[/B] [URL]http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5183[/URL] [B] "Pakistan: Police Arrest Women Runners"[/B] [URL]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3693/is_200505/ai_n14801781[/URL]

[B]Pakistan: Two women murdered in "honor killings"[/B] [URL]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3693/is_200407/ai_n9430152[/URL][B]

"Pakistani woman jailed for being raped in Saudi Arabia, deported" [/B][URL]http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/04/26/pakistani-woman-jailed-for-being-raped-in-saudi-arabia-deported/[/URL]

[B]"Honor Crimes in Yemen"[/B] [URL]http://www.wunrn.com/news/01_15_06/011706_yemen_honor.htm[/URL] [B] "Egyptian Police Obstruct Search for Missing Christian Woman"[/B] [URL]http://www.christianity.com/religiontoday/1350834.aspx[/URL]

[B]Jordan: Honor Killings law blocked"[/B] [URL]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3088828.stm[/URL]

[B]"India: Police won't let women file rape charges"[/B] [URL]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3693/is_200208/ai_n9118448[/URL]

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

hey man, im not blinded by hate, i pointed out a systematic pattern of behavoir that has existed for a few thousand years. yet everyone wants ppl to apologize, simply out of fear. no one outside of the muslim community finds it offensive. churches have already been attacked, mistakenly i might add as the pope is the ehad of the roman catholic church and tyhey bruned down the coptic sect of christiantiy.

im just waiting for someone within the region to voice out against this shit, all the killing and politics there and still NO ONE says ''maybe we need to calm down"" much like 70% of the population says about Bush. they issue demands to us, and others and explicitly say ''if you dont heed our call 100%, we wont deal with you, or we will kill you""

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=malayday;376193]please man no one is putting words into your mouth you talk a load of crap some times bro...respect to you as a human being but kinky hit it one head when he said its not your opinion that offensive..its the fact that you have a sharp mind...your intelligent and interested..and yet your so blinded by your hate that you cant think straight..... i hope the very best for you...[/quote]I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't put words in my mouth either. I respect Sean as a person as well as the opinions he voices. I never said he's blinded by hate, even though my post was very sharp. If I indeed thought that, I wouldn't have put that much effort in writing such a long ass post. My only intention was to provide some info about the difference between the Qur'an and Sharia in order to point out that outrageous abuses in commited in the name of Allah are in fact only serving those in power and have nothing to do with religion.

[quote]on another note the hudood ordinance is a statute which exists in a country no more than 60 years old... its in the process of being demolished;...it was implemented by a man who's vision was twisted and fuked by the people he left in charge..and he was killed by the cia (isi) before he could fix the shit....the whipping and lashing does not actually happen or stoning or and cutting or burning or whatever....the unfortunate fact however is that there have been countless nimbers of women who have suffered terribly because of it....there is however NOTHING islamic about it....NOTHING....so dont talk about how much this "shows" how "dispicable" this religion is...at its core...you aint nothin but a hater g....[/quote]Frankly I don't care in how many countries it has been existing for how many years. It exists and it shouldn't I don't care who implemented it and I don't care how he came to his end. It exists and it shouldn't. I don't care whether the whipping and not are being carried or not (no offence, but how do you know this yourself?). It exists and it shouldn't.

Frankly, after having read your post, I still don't have a clue what message you want to get across. The way I understand it is: "Stop making such a big fuss about some irrelevant detail like this. And oh btw, it's not muslim fyi..."

[quote=thesightless;376312]hey man, im not blinded by hate, i pointed out a systematic pattern of behavoir that has existed for a few thousand years. yet everyone wants ppl to apologize, simply out of fear. no one outside of the muslim community finds it offensive. churches have already been attacked, mistakenly i might add as the pope is the ehad of the roman catholic church and tyhey bruned down the coptic sect of christiantiy.

im just waiting for someone within the region to voice out against this shit, all the killing and politics there and still NO ONE says ''maybe we need to calm down"" much like 70% of the population says about Bush. they issue demands to us, and others and explicitly say ''if you dont heed our call 100%, we wont deal with you, or we will kill you""[/quote]I think you're tackling a fundamental issue there Sean! Unlike the catholic church, the islam has no "big boss", no official representative. Imo that's a painfull discussion which muslims need to sort out once and for all: who has the right to speak in the name of islam, representing the majority of believers. If that question doesn't get an answer, those who shout the loudest will keep on giving the impression to the rest of the world that they're the ones in charge...

Hmmm, come to think of it: I wonder why it is that they don't have an equivalent of the Pope in the first place. Something to get into... I hate my curiousity sometimes :p;)

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=thesightless;375822]dude, why do you keep insinuating that i am saying a beleif system is physically killing ppl? the people are, they are just doing it for the most part on behalf, and in justification of, said beleif system. they use it as a crutch. i didnt say go town to town in america and kill muslims, i said the region is fucked and should have a fence put around it. as a whole the people there are so ass backward b/c of thier strict beleif. the religion they killed of would be the first religion. Z. it was the religion of the persian empire before sheiks decided to ''implement'' a new religion by force. this is also the caus eof the crusades. hebrew and christianity existed peacefully before the expansion and the crusades were a result of the war when the muslim agressors took jerusalem (everyone's holy land, not just theirs)[/quote]Maybe I expressed myself poorly. In short my point is that the religion is (ab)used as a mean to achieve a goal which has hardly anything to do with the religion. Greed and hunger for power: yes, speading the word of Allah: nope.

[quote]and yeah, you are right on politics, but the p09olitics are driven by the fact that the lack of an islamic state exists between gaza and golan to keep it simple. they hate jews, they dont just hate isrealis. they seem to be more leinient to christians in some areas b/c of the size of the christian population there.[/quote]They don't just hate "infidels", they hate anyone who doesn't ask "how high?" when they say "jump". Even muslims. Just read the [URL="http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/"]Baghdad is Burning[/URL] blog.

[quote]and the quaran does call for the killing of others, read Q2 190-192, the most obvious, and the one verse singled out by the more vile ppl to justify the deaths. but it tells of forgiveness. forgiveness for those who convert. also they tend to point out verses Q9 verses 1-5 , which are defended by saying thier historical contexts are different, then why are they still literally being interpreted by masses to justify. im not opening this bottle of worms any more.[/quote]Why? I guess the answer to that is obvious. What would you do if you wanted to manipulate people into terrorism? Exactly.

[quote]you keep putting words in my mouth bro. i say they arent worth the trouble beause 95% of the people arent in favor of biting the bullet and accepting peace with each other, the jews, the rest of the world. they want victory in the long run.[/quote]It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth, I just didn't get your point. You could be right about 95% not wanting to bite the bullet, but imagine crazy fuckers like Hezbollah living in your street... You'd get the bullet before you could bite it. Fear is a great motivator and the violence against their own people just proves what their real intentions are. Yup, exactly what you wrote...

[quote]how can you ignore what is happening on 3 continents? it isnt isolated.[/quote]I'm not ignoring that at all. It's in fact one of the things (apart from the climate changing) which worries me the most. My point all along is that the current strategy we use to counter it, doesn't work. Should we stop fighting them? NO Should we try harder to get a dialogue going with those the fundis haven't recruited yet? YES

[quote]i know E is an AOK cat, she has to be to deal with you, but again, drop her off in saudi arabia and see what they think of her lifestlye.[/quote]I agree completely and after reading the above I guess you agree that not all muslims are per definition bad.

Anyway, my better half took the effort to reply to your statement earlier on... [QUOTE]It's a pitty that Sean thinks that all the muslims are terrorists or something similar to that. Religion has nothing to do with the shit that it's going on in the world. Actually, he's not the only one who thinks that way... Remember the Belgian guy that I met in Matka??? Well, he thought that the war in Macedonia was a religious one!!! Why? Because Albanians were involved and since they're muslim... he automatically drew that conclusion! So I had to explain everything from the begining to clear things out... Now I don't wanna be misunderstood, I'm not attacking anyone here. There are some "new versions" of muslims here in Macedonia. They have their own rules (which are not based on the Qur'an) and they try to get as many people as possible in their "clan"... In general the most naive ones go there! They dress ridiculous, cover their wives with black scarfs from head to toes etc. They talk bullshit all the time, trying to convince (manipulate) u that everything that u do is wrong...in short, brainwashing! So, due to assholes like that (who only try to make money the easy way) the PURE religion gets a bad image.

One last thing: Sean mentioned my parents. Ok, they might not be perfect at the moment cuz they're giving me shit about u, but the reason they're doing that is because they're pissed at me. Ok, that's another subject.

My point here is that they've taught me, or better yet, they gave me "permission" to lead the lifestyle I'm leading. They've never interfered with what I wear, what kind of haircut I have, ... Just as long as I keep my values as a person. I remember once I was buying mini skirt with my dad, and I was like "Nah,that is too short"...His response: "That's whay it's called MINI. Either u show everything, or get urself a long skirt!!!"

Everything has to do with the mentality, and the circumstances where people live. So, if my parents were as he has represented them, your family would've been eliminated within 24hrs ;)

Wow, way too long reply :D [/QUOTE]Straight from the horse's mouth ;)

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

ok kinky...i apologize for coming across like that....im not saying your saying sean is full of hate...it just seems to me like he is...because almost all of his posts have defamatory implications....it seems a bit one sided for me....but to all i say im sorry.... if you misunderstood me or if i didnt articulate my self well enough....i truely do not want to be percieved this way because anything i say will simply be disregarded...i respect and admire the healthy curiosity you guys have when it comes to the real world and i wish there are more like you... i was simply talking about the hudood ordinance...one which exists in pakistan..not iran or saudi...the wahabi dominated traditions are sponsered by them....there is set money which goes out to almost every mosque in pakistan and imsure throughout the muslim world from the wahabi saudi;s....they pay they support and to go against thier specific style interpretation (would not want to call it fundamentalism beause it doesnot talk of the fundamentlist belifes that islam is based on....i guess my version of islam fundamentalism would be sufism)...it is a misconception to call extremists fundamentalists....but anyway all i wanted to say was that yes on paper it seems more horrific than it is....in reality the hudood ordinace in pakistan does not really implement all that....and wikipedia is an unmonitered unreliebale source unless you already now a bit about what your looking up..its great as a tool but i dont think it should be used as the only reference.... i agree with the fact that sadly enough the muslim extremist orthodoxy that has now imposed itself on some nations has ineveitably lead to the suffering of women...its fuked up..really fuked up...but to attribute that to islam is unfair...islam has a very modern and liberating religion even though i wouldnt call myself a muslim i know enough about it to know that it infact holdwomen in the utmost high regard....paradise is underneath a womens feet...please..its a metaphore..much like the quran..try and understand the essense of what is said...not the literal thing...

but yes there have been many instances where women have been treated like total animals....they get acid thrown on thier bodies and the cant even claim rape....its complete bullshit... really deplorable....but the muslim connection is simply not there...i think in hindu culture the wife of a dead husband is burned alive with his dead body....thats fuked isnt it..... and majority of this crazy shit that happens happens in the slums or the villiages the rural areas where govt law doesnot even stand...it is the tribal warlords and thier rules..and they might support them by saying oh yes it can be interpreted from the quran as this but in reality these people are not muslims...just because my name in mohammad does not mean im a muslim..just as if your name in john...or jesus....haysoos...haha..and if a dozen johns and haysoos's go and pillage and rape all in sight in some project in oakland...you wouldnt blame christianity....even if they said oh yeah God told em to...you just wouldnt...

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=malayday;376412]i agree with the fact that sadly enough the muslim extremist orthodoxy that has now imposed itself on some nations has ineveitably lead to the suffering of women...its fuked up..really fuked up...but to attribute that to islam is unfair...islam has a very modern and liberating religion even though i wouldnt call myself a muslim i know enough about it to know that it infact holdwomen in the utmost high regard....[/quote]

OK, then give me some specific examples of these modern and liberating Islamic societies that hold women in the utmost regard. I can give you plenty of examples of Islamic societies that don't. Here's an example I have for you, from Saudi Arabia:

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm[/url]

That's one about how the GOVERNMENT-sponsored Saudi Arabian police force let young women burn to death back in 2002, because they didn't have "proper Islamic dress". Note that it was the GOVERNMENT that did this, not just a few backwards tribal people. Also, note that this government-sponsored group acted IN THE NAME OF ISLAM - as they defined it.

And there are plenty of other examples like this in plenty of other Islamic nations as to how the government systematically oppresses women and others in their societies.

I couldn't care less about how Islam is maybe a beautiful and peaceful religion in theory. Give me some specifics.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

please dood...lets try and understand what is being talked about...a nation and its policys have extremely different ways of becoming....the process that they go throw the history of thenation itself..the reason for its existence and so forth....im sure you will find a lot of disparities amongst these "muslim" societies....thier version of implementing is is a version afterall...its taken from an original source...the original source is not what is at fault you see....its the versions and the reasons fro those versions and the way they are vary because they the result of human implimentation and subject to human interpretation which im sure we can all agree can be irrational unreasonable and narrow minded..it is human after all...so first lets make that distinction miroslav...and then lets talk

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=malayday;377295]please dood...lets try and understand what is being talked about...a nation and its policys have extremely different ways of becoming....the process that they go throw the history of thenation itself..the reason for its existence and so forth....im sure you will find a lot of disparities amongst these "muslim" societies....thier version of implementing is is a version afterall...its taken from an original source...the original source is not what is at fault you see....its the versions and the reasons fro those versions and the way they are vary because they the result of human implimentation and subject to human interpretation which im sure we can all agree can be irrational unreasonable and narrow minded..it is human after all...so first lets make that distinction miroslav...and then lets talk[/quote]

As I said before, I don't give a shit about what the original source maybe was like. Theory is useless. I care about what is actually happening in the dominant version(s) of Islam today.

And what I see happening is that extremism in Islamic communities is just running rampant. I realize that most Muslims personally are not religious extremists. But I do believe that the religious fanatics in their midst are continuing grow in power and are gaining control of their societies. And now, these barbarians are transitioning from just torturing their own people in the name of God (sometimes with government support) to expanding their vision to other parts of the world.

It would have been best for the world if the moderate Muslims would have been able to take things back and reinstitute civilized principles like respect and compromise. But they didn't (or couldn't), and now America and other nations in the world will do it for them. And that's really unfortunate, because the result will be a war in which many innocent people on all sides will be killed along with the religious zealots.

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

pakistan had a democracy void of religion until a religious military coup took over and implemented the law to take the country to a strict version of sharia. it happened in 1979, and you can learn about it [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia-ul-Haq%27s_Islamization"]here[/URL].

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

brother man...you hit in on the head..zia ul haq took over pakistan and started the process of what he called 'islamisation' this was the cause of the huddod ordinance and all sorts of loony shit in the country's constitution...before he could fix shit up and make it reasonable and in 'real' accordance of 'real' Islam...the cia killed the bitch...from then on the country's been divided, confused and basically fuked..

and on a nother note..i was wondering if you could note the sort of similarities between Pakistan and Israel...particularily in thier formation...its a point i wanted to talk with you guys about...

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

[quote=Miroslav;377369]As I said before, I don't give a shit about what the original

It would have been best for the world if the moderate Muslims would have been able to take things back and reinstitute civilized principles like respect and compromise. But they didn't (or couldn't), and now America and other nations in the world will do it for them. And that's really unfortunate, because the result will be a war in which many innocent people on all sides will be killed along with the religious zealots.[/quote]

haha..you really think america and the 'coalition' of the 'willing' are going to teach 'them' respect and compromise...yeah by showing them what the opposite of it looks like eh....:lol:

Re: my incindiary comment of the day

^^^ [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbisiXR9b5U[/URL]