[QUOTE]Newsweek

Aug. 14, 2006 issue - The Bush administration insists Iraq is a long way from civil war, but the contingency planning has already begun inside the White House and the Pentagon.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14206642/[/url]

Sure, this planning is beginning over three years after the beginning of the war, but hey, what do you want? :roll:

Is there any doubt any more that Iraq is not, in fact, "a long way from civil war?" At this point, it's just a matter of semantics. If you've got a bit of time, check out this article from this week's Time -- interesting read about the status of things on the ground.

[url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1223363,00.html[/url]

What a mess.

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im gonna place bets on betoniraq.com

simply because we are at the point where either 100% of iraqis actually wanted hussein. or they just dont care. so my feelings have become cold. i know there is so much good happening there that hardly gets out, but when these fucking radicals would rather kill thier own then lose power...... and they people being killed dont fight back..... eh..... im tired.

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[QUOTE=thesightless]i know there is so much good happening there that hardly gets out, but when these fucking radicals would rather kill thier own then lose power...... and they people being killed dont fight back..... eh..... im tired.[/QUOTE]

You would think that's the case, but the guy who wrote the Time article was on CNN this morning to talk about it, and he was asked that question point blank -- "Surely, there is some good news over there, right?" He responded that they are desperately trying to find some, but that the current situation is really, really bleak, and that any time there appears to be good news, it turns out to be not-so-good upon further reflection. Really, really sad.

He indicated that the only time there is any calm is when US troops are around -- the violence ticks down, or moves to a different area where there isn't a (US) troop presence. The message I took from it was that if and when we do leave, restraint is cast aside, and Iraq descends into utter chaos. If we stay, however, things aren't good, either. It's a tragic catch-22.

There are those that say that if you want to make an omelette, you've got to break some eggs. At this point, this better be one hell of a tasty omelette to justify what has happened over there. The real problem, though, is that we still have to make the omelette -- we can't just break a bunch of eggs and leave -- but Rumsfeld, Bush et al, are just now looking for a recipe.

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ya kinda mistook my thoughts. ill clarify. with a few basic examples.

1. there are more people who have power and plumbing than ever. this is great if only fto show them that life doesnt have to be hardships.

2. there are more hospitals open now than since the days of when saddam took hold.

3. massive public works prodjects are under way to make the coutry more accessible. not just baghdad.

4. the one thing that drew my ire when i heard it first. the happenings of the central iraqi plains in the 80's....... when the kurds and other minor sects rebelled aginst saddam, the guy actually had the central swamplands drained. he actually destroyed his countries enviornment, cutting off the only source of food, agriculture and income that the people there had. the UN and human rights watch estimated it ended up killing over 2 million in the course of 20 years. he literally turned a tropical region into a desert. well, we are working hard to restore the canals and rivers that flowed there once. think about what would happen if the US gov;'t decided to destroy the california forests, or the new englad fisheries because someone voted democrat, or if clinton had the army burnout the cetral farmlands because we voted republican after him.....this always bothered me so much,.... if only because you arent just punishing those who defy you, you are destroying the land, and lives for years and years to come.

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well, your comments seem to be directed at the notion that life under Saddam was better, although I don't know that anyone is advancing that idea. That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make.

If you read further into the Newsweek article I cited, it suggests that Bush's plan in the event civil war breaks out is to pull our troops, leaving the country to work it out on its own. That could be catastrophic, or it could be the thing that needs to happen for long-term stability. It's pretty clear, though, that a lot of Iraqis are going to die between now and the time that anything is resolved one way or another. That is an unavoidable reality of the current lay of the land. It's just a mess.

My biggest fear is that we will go through all of this -- and subject Iraqis to all of this -- and at the end of the day another dictator is installed and we're back where we began, only the eggs are broken and there's no omelette.

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Its going to be brutal and bloody. No matter how one feels about the original reasons for the US going into Iraq in the first place, I must say it seems we bear responsibility for the mess (if that is what it is) that Iraq is now facing. To just leave them to duke it out amongst themselves seems insome way lowly on our part. I certainly don't have the answers to solve these kinds of dilemmas. I am fearful the world is going to become increasingly violent over the next 5-15 years.

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[QUOTE=thesightless] simply because we are at the point where either 100% of iraqis actually wanted hussein. or they just dont care. so my feelings have become cold. i know there is so much good happening there that hardly gets out, but when these fucking radicals would rather kill thier own then lose power...... and they people being killed dont fight back..... eh..... im tired.[/QUOTE]

Respectfully, looking back at this, I think this is based upon the fundamentally flawed view -- a view shared by Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al -- that Iraq was a homogeneous country under Saddam. Under Saddam, you had Kurds living semi-autonomously in the north, you had a Sunni minority in charge, and a Shi'ite majority being oppressed -- distinct groups that shared a collective border, but little else. Talking about Iraqis killing each other fails to recognize that Iraqis view themselves as Sunnis, Shi'ites or Kurds first, and Iraqis a distant second. They owe no allegiance to their nationality.

Removing Saddam from power removed the one regulating force that kept this powderkeg of a country from exploding earlier. Understanding this helps to make clear why we were not "greeted as liberators" -- we probably were by the Shi'ites initially, but to the Sunnis we were wrecking a pretty good thing they had going, and it's natural to expect that they wouldn't take it lying down.

The long and short of it is that Bush drove us headlong into a war he doesn't even fucking understand without any sort of plan beyond "shock and awe." My comments should not be interpreted to mean that I think Saddam should have been left in power by any stretch, but removing him from power without an understanding of the likely repercussions or a plan to deal with them is just tragic and is the number 1 reason we find ourselves where we do...

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nah, its not that. its just past the point where we know what was there. IMHO, the people in the sunni triangle have long gone past the point of no return. it simply seems that no one wants peace. there isnt a single person on the planet who isnt mentally handicapped who can tell me that the people there dont know who is a 'insurgent' and who isnt. how in the world can they prefer the situation as opposed to peace.... the US lead coalition obviously isnt there to take over the place. they are openly saying the will hand it to the people, and the people give me the view that they dont want it.

at this point, i still pay attention to whats going on, but my empathy for the people has faded. im now outside the school of thought that maybe we would see a revolution of ideas within the country, with an eye towards a representative gov't and peace and law and order. their government, from reports, seems to be infighting so every little contingent gets just a bit more than the next....when they need to be sacrificing for progress. the afghans did it. and karzai has not had the large scale problems allawi (sp) does. dont get me wrong i know that there is still taleban elements trying to charge up a campaign, but they have a lot of foreign fighters there as well......

seriously, and i will be honest here, not gonna debate any facts, just my opinion. im simply done with the whole region. each player has their hands somewhere else. everyone is trying to sabotage each other. just since 9/11 and that events focus on the region, you have syria in lebanon, iran in syria and lebanon, iran calling for death to jews, the taleban fighting to retain a clerics control over people, iraqis killing each other simply out of spite at this point, and further east into kashmir, and south into africa. they are spreading chaos thoughtout. its beginning to stir up in turkey as well. my patience and understanding have long gone and now i find myself looking at BBC's news when i get home and i no longer fell happy or sad when i see a report, im just like ''when will someone step up and end it. i just dont care what happens, just stop killing each other becuase a stupid religion is losing its foothold on the people.

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^^I know how you feel

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just use the USA as an example. after france and spain helped us out, the people themselves stood up and started walking. it did take us 12 years from declaration to actual organized government on a federal scale, but we tried, we fought back, and everyone sacrificed.. and later on when this country wanted to split in two, the northern states took the initiative to fight for something called freedom for all and stopped the second most horrific time period in human history. we could have laid back and allowed slavery to continue simply out of reason of different social ideals, but we fought back and gave an entire race of humans equal foothold over time.

all it takes is effort and a strong will to do what is neccessary. no matter what the cost. and frankly, the people of iraq are bearing the cost, but not giving the effort.

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last thing.

its time. its time for the entire world to realize the area needs a forceful hand in sorting out, or we need to leave it alone and simply protect isreal. either everyone goes in with a united military presence and forces peace, or we let them fight it to the death and to the victor goes the spoils.

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Check this out. Beautiful view on reconstruction in Iraq and why it's failing and of course - who's paying for it...

[url]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5626642[/url]

and don't even give me that shit that npr is 'liberal' and 'democratic'. as a moderate, it takes both sides and is one of the best stations out there.

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NPR smokes hippie lettuce before reporting. :p

Reconstruction is failing because Shiites and Sunnis hate each other.

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[quote=Localizer]

and don't even give me that shit that npr is 'liberal' and 'democratic'. as a moderate, it takes both sides and is one of the best stations out there.[/quote]

hi. let me show you something. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . welcome. learn. npr is about as independent as fox news. they are very left. you need to learn about the rfar right and thier misguided thoughts before you call NPR moderate. they are pretty left. [IMG]http://www.solarviews.com/raw/earth/earthafr.jpg[/IMG]

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the news can be, yes, but i throw that aside, the more in-depth issues are what i'm concerned about....and ya, i've seen and been to quite a few countries around the world...have you? probably not, so sit down.

"Deputy Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction Ginger Cruz oversees the audit, inspection and investigation operations established to prevent waste, fraud and abuse in the U.S. reconstruction of Iraq. Cruz just returned from Iraq."

give it a listen rather than jumping the gun.

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[quote=Localizer]....and ya, i've seen and been to quite a few countries around the world...have you? probably not, so sit down.[/quote]

Great, you're a fine tourist. I've been to quite a few countries as well, how is that relavent to this discussion?

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i have. and i live in NYC, so the world comes to me more than anyone else on the planet. again though, it has zero revelence that i have been to mexico, canada, ireland, england, argentina, and peru.

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[quote=Jenks]Great, you're a fine tourist. I've been to quite a few countries as well, how is that relavent to this discussion?[/quote]

it's very relevant considering i don't go as a tourist, but as a learner. i don't travel for leisure, i travel to expand knowledge. it's also relevant in the fact that your buddy, sightless, posted the picture of the world. taking in what the rest of the world views about our foreign policies and actions is crucial. anyway, you still veer away from the topic at hand, which is reconstruction. so make this a worthwhile debate and rather than critique my knowledge, dig up some information and hit me back with something legitimate rather than sarcastic comments.

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[quote=thesightless]i have. and i live in NYC, so the world comes to me more than anyone else on the planet. again though, it has zero revelence that i have been to mexico, canada, ireland, england, argentina, and peru.[/quote]

again, it has all the relevance in the world if you know what you're doing there....

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[quote=Localizer] anyway, you still veer away from the topic at hand...[/quote] you veered this topic off track by assuming you're the only person that's travelled the world, and your opinion is somehow more relavant than thesightless'.

my last post was this:

[quote]Reconstruction is failing because Shiites and Sunnis hate each other.[/quote] ^on topic.

So please continue unless you'd like to post more of your credentials.

I'm just sayin... :NotMe:

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[quote=Jenks]you veered this topic off track by assuming you're the only person that's travelled the world, and your opinion is somehow more relavant than thesightless'.

my last post was this:

^on topic.

So please continue unless you'd like to post more of your credentials.

I'm just sayin... :NotMe:[/quote]

nope, i kept it on topic and have....sightless threw it off topic and you followed to back your buddy. i replied to his sarcasm. i have continued, and like i said, give a listen and post what you think since the clip is not a biased discussion but rather an overview of what's working and what's not.

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[B]Mission Accomplished!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :RockOn: [/B]