Highlighting the fact that the religious right and Bush are tightly aligned:

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9533-2004Aug17.html[/url]

[quote][b]Pastors Issue Directive in Response to Reelection Tactic[/b]

By Alan Cooperman Wednesday, August 18, 2004; Page A04

Ten teachers of Christian ethics at leading seminaries and universities have written a letter to President Bush criticizing his campaign's outreach to churches, particularly its effort to gather church membership directories.

The Aug. 12 letter asked Bush to "repudiate the actions of your re-election campaign, which violated a fundamental principle of our democracy." It also urged both presidential candidates to "respect the integrity of all houses of worship."

...

"When certain church leaders acceded to the request of the Bush/Cheney campaign to hand over the names and addresses of their congregants, they crossed a line," the letter said. "It is proper for church leaders to address social issues, but it is improper, and even illegal, for them to get their churches to endorse candidates or align their churches with a specific political party."

...

The campaign has come under growing criticism since The Washington Post reported July 1 on an instruction sheet for Bush's religious "coalition coordinators." It listed 22 duties, beginning with: "Send your Church Directory to your State Bush-Cheney '04 Headquarters" and "Identify another conservative church in your community who we can organize for Bush."

The ethicists' letter said that "Christians, individually, should prayerfully seek God's direction when voting, but when any church leaders contend that they speak for God and have the right to tell congregants how to vote, such leaders have assumed prerogatives to which they have no right." [/quote]

A commentator on the radio this morning suggested that Bush's strategy is to shore up the evangelical Christian vote with the belief that those folks alone would be enough to win him the election. This is more or less consistent with other things I've heard about Bush basically preaching to the choir, if you'll pardon the pun, at all of his campaign stops not just to create the illusion of rabid support from a television perspective, but also to energize his base to turn out to vote to build his numbers that way rather than targeting swing voters, as conventional wisdom would suggest.

It will be interesting to see how this works. I'm banking that it won't -- I just don't think the decision to vote or not to vote is changed in that way, and the people that are attending those rallies and are politically involved are going to vote anyway...

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

And this:

[quote] In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel?s occupation of the rest of its ?Biblical lands? (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the Antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to earth. [/quote]

[url]www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/04/20/apocalypse-please/#more-859[/url]

Thank God I am Roman Catholic. :wink:

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

[quote=mixu]And this:

[quote] In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel?s occupation of the rest of its ?Biblical lands? (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the Antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to earth. [/quote]

[url]www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/04/20/apocalypse-please/#more-859[/url][/quote]

:HolyShit: That's some crazy shit.

Man, the evangelical christians are fucking nuts. My parents dragged me and my sister to a few of those churches in north Dallas when we were young, and the thought processes of these people were absolutely shocking.

All non-christian music was a tool of the devil to corrupt the youth.

AIDS was god's punishment on gays. Yes, one preacher stated that as a [b]fact[/b] in front of several thousand people, at which point my parents stood up and left.

The wife of one preacher was told by a hypnotherapist that she was molested as a child. From then onwards, most, if not all people that went to that preacher for counseling were told that they were molested by their parents as children and that all their problems were the result of repressing it. Half of them believed it.

And the whole time, there was constantly drama from people cheating on spouses, youth group leaders getting down with the high-schoolers, etc, etc. Fucking hypocrites, all of them. All of that left a bad taste in my mouth about organized religion in general, and anybody in a position of power who is using their warped beliefs to make decisions that affect the rest of us.

There was nothing like being dragged to one of these places on a Sunday morning on the back end of a hard acid trip and watching the walls wave while the preacher was spewing his bullshit. ;) At least we had some damnable fun of our own sorts in those little prisons. 8)

Fortunately, my parents have since "seen the light", now go to some hippie church in Boulder where a previous preacher compared Christianity to Shamanism, and purposely taunt their more evangelical friends and family members. ;)

Religion/belief is irrational, and irrationality on a large scale and organized basis scares me. That is like organized lunacy IMO. :Crucify:

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

[quote=mixu]And this:

[quote] In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel?s occupation of the rest of its ?Biblical lands? (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the Antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to earth. [/quote]

[url]www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/04/20/apocalypse-please/#more-859[/url][/quote]

Hoorah, its all our fault!

As an aside, the Dome of the Rock/Al-Aqsa mosque actually stands on the site of the first and second temples. In fact hostorians believe that the actual part of the temple where the mosques are now was the holy of holys -where the ark of the covenant was kept!

Many Jews here, and in the States, are actually worried that Sharon and Bush are so close specifically because of Bush's relationship with fundamental christians, a reason why possibily in a recent survey of US Jews 75% polled said they would be voting for Kerry.

Not true. I am Catholic, of course God speaks to me not in church but in life. I am not a crazy Christ lover that goes around and damns people. Not my job. My God states not to judge, for it is unjust and unfair. As the saying goes "who are you to judge ?!?". Funny. Yet true.

I do not believe in those people, nor do I believe they are part of my "house". There is a such thing as extreme and yep that would be it. Not to bash anyone who is, but God is a choice within a given person. They choose to believe, it should not be a forced action, nor do I think it should be.

Choice = Freedom. Simple.

Happy Your Day!

Asdf_Admin is about to preach a sermon. Amen brother. :)

[quote=Yao]Religion/belief is irrational, and irrationality on a large scale and organized basis scares me. That is like organized lunacy IMO. :Crucify:[/quote]

Score one for Yao because he hit the nail on the head here. There is no god anywhere. We have science and nature, thats it. Love everybody because we're all humans. Please folks lets keep this politics though, and not get off on a religion thread. Everybody here wants to debate, and we all know that debating politics is enough for one lifetime, debating religion is another.

Plus I dont want to embarass any crusaders on this site in a debate about religion...its not my schtick! :)

To me there is a God, and there is nothing in this life that prove otherwise. Science is the chase to prove God, but you can not prove something that is in someones heart and is a choice. If you wish to "see" you will. It is that simple. I promise.

... :wink:

these so called christian's(and catholics) are fools, but dangerous fools, and that is worrying :Scared:

[quote=asdf_admin]Not true. I am Catholic, of course God speaks to me not in church but in life.[/quote]

Catholics aren't the nutcases - just the fucking evangelicals. ;)

this is the strange thing ... I do not think you guys are fools? So why bash and hinder the peaceful? I have done nothing to anyone, and I will continue not to push my ways or views. I will let life play it's role and I will go with what I feel is strength and power in my life. Even more, to understand and help me get to the next day.

Don't you see ... it is a lifestyle, something that helps me understand, and grow, something I love, and enjoy. And yet that is bad? or not good? You can not say that, nor is there anyway you could prove to me that it is.

I wait for a intelligent argument. Not just simple judgement.

PS (K) Thank You.

my thought on it is this: if religion enhances your life, so be it, do it. If it doesn't, that's OK, too. The problem arises when religion is foisted upon someone. That, I guess is my concern with Bush being in the hip pocket of rabid fundamentalists -- there is a possibility that religion will find its way into policy.

I agree with you on that. I do not believe in forcing anything upon anyone. It is just that simple, we all have our own free will, we can choose what we want. I have your backing on that.

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

My problem with Bush's tactics are that he will probably divide the nation even more than ever. Or is it already divided and he's just picking sides?

[quote=asdf_admin]this is the strange thing ... I do not think you guys are fools? So why bash and hinder the peaceful? I have done nothing to anyone, and I will continue not to push my ways or views. I will let life play it's role and I will go with what I feel is strength and power in my life. Even more, to understand and help me get to the next day.

Don't you see ... it is a lifestyle, something that helps me understand, and grow, something I love, and enjoy. And yet that is bad? or not good? You can not say that, nor is there anyway you could prove to me that it is.

I wait for a intelligent argument. Not just simple judgement.

PS (K) Thank You.[/quote]

The history of the church is what bothers me and is why I said that christians are fools. How many christians/catholics have any idea about the history of their church? Do you? I would like to think that there are many who do but the unfortunate truth is there isn't and I guarantee if most did there would no longer be the support for it that it currently receives, especially those members of the Roman Catholic church.

But don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the fundementals that are taught(thou shall not kill etc) and I understand that some people get fulfillment from it and it helps them lead better life's, like yourself :wink:

So my apologies if i offended you :Naughty:

[quote=toasty]my thought on it is this: if religion enhances your life, so be it, do it. If it doesn't, that's OK, too. The problem arises when religion is foisted upon someone. That, I guess is my concern with Bush being in the hip pocket of rabid fundamentalists --[b] there is a possibility that religion will find its way into policy[/b].[/quote]

And it doesn't already?

:unsure:

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

[quote]The history of the church is what bothers me and is why I said that christians are fools. How many christians/catholics have any idea about the history of their church? Do you? I would like to think that there are many who do but the unfortunate truth is there isn't and I guarantee if most did there would no longer be the support for it that it currently receives, especially those members of the Roman Catholic church.

But don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the fundementals that are taught(thou shall not kill etc) and I understand that some people get fulfillment from it and it helps them lead better life's, like yourself Wink

So my apologies if i offended you [/quote]

No problem. You are very correct, just because you believe in God, does not make you a good person. History of the church and the people behind, have been very very bad and prove that exact point. That is the black & white in life. I believe in my Lord, and all his blessing. But, yet I also understand there are people who wish not to. That is the beauty of choice. To me, it makes you no less no better, it makes who you are, a human. As equal, as fair, and as fun as me.

I am different. You will not find many like me out there. I will not burn you, I will not damn you, I will only LOVE you. :Tongue: So I guess I am a little fuct up.

I believe the truth will one day be know about the true Pataky Pal.

[quote=Yao]Religion/belief is irrational, and irrationality on a large scale and organized basis scares me. That is like organized lunacy IMO. :Crucify:[/quote]

:ROFLMAO: Religion is irrational and irrationality [b]scares[/b] you!!!! LOL quote of the year. LoL, you really put yourself on a pedestal with that one.

The only thing more rediculous than blind evangelism is people who act like they cleansed themselves of any human transgressions because they have been fortunate enough to receive a miseducation.

Besides evangelicals drive me crazy but this is America. And if you are going to make me tolerate a bunch of lazy asses living off of my hard earned money then i am going to make you endure more evangelism. Enjoy!

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

Hey MyLexicons back . . . . it's been quiet without matey!

sup dave :Bingo: feels good to be back:D

Re:: Bush and Evangelical Christians

[quote=davetlv]...why possibily in a recent survey of US Jews 75% polled said they would be voting for Kerry.[/quote]

Not the reason - 'cause they traditionally voted Democratic. But that's changing - some of 'em started to realize that you either support pro-Israel Republicans or anti-sam Democrats (and can't do both selectively). Is current NYC mayor a democrat? Both front-running mayoral candidates were Jewish - although I s'pose Bloomberg could've been riding the Giuliani wave :WinkNSmi:

[quote=mylexicon][quote=Yao]Religion/belief is irrational, and irrationality on a large scale and organized basis scares me. That is like organized lunacy IMO. :Crucify:[/quote]

:ROFLMAO: Religion is irrational and irrationality [b]scares[/b] you!!!! LOL quote of the year. LoL, you really put yourself on a pedestal with that one.

The only thing more rediculous than blind evangelism is people who act like they cleansed themselves of any human transgressions because they have been fortunate enough to receive a miseducation.

Besides evangelicals drive me crazy but this is America. And if you are going to make me tolerate a bunch of lazy asses living off of my hard earned money then i am going to make you endure more evangelism. Enjoy![/quote]

Heheh, you didn't quite get my point there, did you now? Irrationality is inherent to the human nature, so don't worry about me being miseducated. Which makes me think I'm talking to a firm believer here?

Nice little discussion I had with a classmate of mine, who is protestant:

She: "How can you live with the idea that it all ends when you die, that there is nothing after life? That sounds really scary to me, I could never do that."

Me: "How can YOU live your life in service of a God or whatever, thinking that there is something beyond without knowing it? If there's nothing, you spent your whole life on that for nothing! I'd rather just take what I can get now, and make something of my life here."

Personally, I think it is one big joke. Either your God doesn't exist, or he ran away scared from what he created. Or he must've been really, really high on stuff when he did his creating thing :Nice: