[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
yeah, woo hoo, lets fuck over the companies who bought the land.....
if i were BP or total, i would take the 6 month window to disassemble every single peice of machinery and ship it to where they can still operate freely, not under a ""do as i say, not as i do"" socialist leader.
but shit, if it lowers gas prices, do it everywhere. my desire to see a free economy and the need to drive around conflict.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Socialist? I heard he was a populist...
So, any high altitude bombers on their way to restore our fine neo liberal system?
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Protectionism for 15-20 yrs under a development-orientated regime, then a transitional period of 5-12 yrs towards the free market.
It's a way to to it.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
good , im kinda happy the spanish government and spanish and brazil companies have came out today saying they are leaning to pulling out their resources from bolivia and no longer investing in the country. best news in regards to economic policy in ages. morales just pushed a little too much. he was planning on taking 82% of revenues and now it is gonna bite him in the ass when he loses a monster source of income from the companies
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
^^^ Hear hear!
True. Morales excuse was that he wanted control over the energy supply of the country. Nice excuse to steal from others that have invested in the country, created employment AND pay taxes.
I can't believe this actually possible today.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
socialism is the complete opposite idea of how i view a positive economy. its too limited in scope to the independent business owner. with all due respect to nederlands, who the fuck is the government to tell me how much i can make and limit me if i want to work harder all the while allowing somone who works half as much to earn equal. like unions only worse, unions can be controlled, governments cannot.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Lemme tell you something else then: this fine capitals system of ours is one that keeps extracting resources from South America and Africa (not denying their own faults here, just concentrating on the deficiencies in that beloved capitalist system of yours and playing devil's advocate), thereby hampering any serious development.
Where the fuck do you think the REAL money goes man, into Bolivia? Hell no, the concessions bought there are peanuts in comparison the the profits that oil companies make on the Western market. Those companies also work in close harmony with the elites in Bolivia, who are all too happy accepting that money and selling out their country to secure their positions. Everyone is getting pissed off at Morales because if he nationalized oil, he'd take the control over that resource out of the hands of Western transnationals and the country's elite, the ones that are profiting off it right now. An open market can only flourish if it's competitive, and the South-American market laregely is NOT, especially that of Venezuela and Bolivia. By trying to nationalize oil, it would become (1) a resource that can be redistributed by the govt and (2) a resource whose profits can be redistributed by the state.
The stories of Africa and South America are virtually the same in this sense, and in both case the West that is boasting it's democratic system profits of the deep division between upper class and the middle and lower class and the patron-client system which it officially despises so much to secure it's interests. All you have to do is a litle studying up on the money flows to see this, guys....
Europe and America are NOT about real development. They are about creating an environment that is favourable to their politics and their economic expansion. What bugs me so much is that the predatory behaviour among politicians and elites in Africa and South-America are facilitating this so well. :evil:
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
I'm SO going to back this up with a nice article later on, which i'm readin for my exam tomorrow...it says everything I said, only better (that guy finished his studies :D )
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
lets face it, outside of """"NATURAL BEAUTY""", africa has nothing to offer a leading nation or company as a reason to invest, there are zero incentives there other than a sense of guilt. and obviously that isnt enough when we let aparthide last for as long as it did, guys like mugabe run around and basically let half the population destroy the other half.... harsh reality it is.
yao, i am fed up with your militant evil views. please stop of i am referring you to your government. j.k. and you forgot to add point 3 to ur 3rd paragraph. (((3.a resource that will no longer be viable to extract for a few years once the companies who got fucked take thier expertise and equipment back to europe and brazil.)))
and the big problem with capitalism in third world nations isnt capitalists, its the governemnts of said countries. like with immigration here, we are bitching aobut the mexicans and salvadoreans being here, while we should be looking at why they come here like they do. 1. mexican government, 2. mexican government, 3, the repsective societies where drug lords have more pull than officials,
and there should be a division of the classes....IF you want it, earn it. people who are lazy, uneducated etcetc dont deserve to be wealthy.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Yeap, it's like fucking Miss Universe contestants: everybody wants that, but unless you're the chairman of the jury, you're stuck playing with your wiener...
What's wrong with you Yao, or should I say Mao? You a commie fag son?
Oh btw, I did my share of charity today: I had a piece of sandwich left over from lunch and I Fedex'ed it to Etheopia.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
I'll get back on this once i'm capable of formulating a coherent answer again, since i'm utterly pissed off with blowing my exam today due to the fact that the goddamn degenerate piece of shit cunt professor that made it had me read 3 full books about the philisophical problems development studies is currently facing when trying to assert globalization and in the end asks me specifically about little lists of terms that are hidden somewhere in the stockpile of articles I've read for today. [SIZE="6"][B][COLOR="Red"] F**KING BITCH[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
And it wasn't just me....more than half the class fucked this one up big time. Pissed people all over the place - [I]"did she want us to understand the bigger picture or simply likes posing questions the way they do on primary school?"[/I]
Really...she went around telling us she wants us to develop our academic skills...then neglects to reflect that in the way she questions us during an exam. This was by far the worst exam in 7 years, subpar stuff. I read a whole goddamn book on Values in economics, backed up with an Arestotelian framework (basically telling us that even neo-liberal economies are NOT essentially rationalist, but constantly influenced and constituted by values of which the prime 3 are Freedom, Justice and Care), and she goes around asking for the - [I]literally[/I]- single paragraph about the position of women in economics under the influence of globalization and how i can relate this to another article, thus bypassing the message of the book completely and in every single fucking way.
God i need to kill someone right now. This means my trip to Africa will be cut short by at least a week to begin with, THANKYOUVERYMUCH VAN ZANTEN!!! :evil: :rant: :AssKicki: :Anal: :DumbAss: :BangHead: :Gotcha: :Die: :KillYou: :Boom: :spank: :hanghim: :blah::Middlefi: :lickmyha:
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
well thats what you get for studying a feild that has zero factual basis outside of dead people's opinions on what they disliked in others. and how they were right in the end. you know, just like every philosopher from decartes to hefner, they all had the only solution..... philosophy and sociology... the only majors to leave you with no job skills for helping the real world but a unhealthy viewopint on how to fix it.. go figure.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Dude, i'm learning about development policies (which incorporate economics and their theories) and political distortions in Africa, now how does that not qualify as valuable for a career in international politics and development? Really, if it's a joke then sorry for my reaction, but it'd better since otherwise that is one of the most retarded things I've ever heard about my studies mate.
And btw...i'm still completely worked up, don't expect too nuanced answers right now...
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
if you really wanted to help you would learn to act as an agent, get a group of companies together, fund a public works prodject to get a fucking highway built, or a canal so equiequi over there can get a glass of water that doesnt have a dead lions blood init. then you could have a company go in there, hire people and try to create a financial basis to build on rather than asking the west to ""forgive debts"" that were incurred the last time somone had an idea to fix africa. get a trade skill that they need, not another opinion based on someone else's opinion that failed before. obvioiusly the capitalism model works, look around at the coutries that use it or a modified version of it to fit government. USA, england, japan, china...see a trend there>? lets take a peek at how to tackle this one.... 1. just forcefuly remove the african leadership. 2, take a decade building infrastructure and planting the seeds of business. 3. after 8 years begin funding a public vote where anyone can run for government and let it be unrestricted.
none of this.....waaah they were raped economically.....cry baby shit. if they wanted to survive they would do it themselves. they are helpless and sadly, only the stronge survive. rule of earth since the ameoba.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Why do we want to get Africa on the same level as we are anyway? Another continent sucking our oil reserves dry? Fucking up the Kyoto norm even more? Damnit, it's already bad enough that the Chinese are stealing employment from us as it is.
And apart from that, where are we going to sell our obsolete weapons and dump our chemical waste when Africa gets civilised?
God, it's been decades since we've brought civilisation and christianity to the bush, we've taught them how to dig up raw materials and plant banana's, we've built roads, ports airstrips to export it all to civilisation. Then the fuckers thaught they could do better and demanded independence. We gave it to them and what do they have to show for 50 years later? Nada, nothing, niente.
Columbus and the Conquistadores burned, looted, raped and killed throughout the Americas. Now do you hear the Latino's bitchin'? No, they got their shit together and started planting poppys and coca.
It's all Darwin to me. Like Sean said: survival of the fittest.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
[QUOTE=thesightless]if you really wanted to help you would learn to act as an agent, get a group of companies together, fund a public works prodject to get a fucking highway built, or a canal so equiequi over there can get a glass of water that doesnt have a dead lions blood init. then you could have a company go in there, hire people and try to create a financial basis to build on rather than asking the west to ""forgive debts"" that were incurred the last time somone had an idea to fix africa. get a trade skill that they need, not another opinion based on someone else's opinion that failed before. obvioiusly the capitalism model works, look around at the coutries that use it or a modified version of it to fit government. USA, england, japan, china...see a trend there>? lets take a peek at how to tackle this one.... 1. just forcefuly remove the african leadership. 2, take a decade building infrastructure and planting the seeds of business. 3. after 8 years begin funding a public vote where anyone can run for government and let it be unrestricted.
none of this.....waaah they were raped economically.....cry baby shit. if they wanted to survive they would do it themselves. they are helpless and sadly, only the stronge survive. rule of earth since the ameoba.[/QUOTE]
(1) I am not specifically in favour of forgiving debts, although one cannot deny in any way that they are the result of economic and political practices that have been aiming at tying African and South American economies to the Western ones in a subordinate position. This is pretty complex to explain in short, but it boils pretty much down to very unfavourable conditionalities attached to the loans whose effect in the end was a capital flight to the West rather than accumulation in the underdeveloped countries - whereas the dependencia theory voiced by the South American developement school is too extreme in putting the guilt on the Western countries, the modernization theory which was the bedrock of most Western development ideologies has been proven far too linear in it's approach in the first place, not to mention the fact that it does in no way take into account the cultural realm of politics and development: it basically states that we need to incorporate the underdeveloped countries in the modernization path which the West is following now. EG: "What is good for us, is good for you."
This implies a certain universalism in cultures all around the globe, a universal way of looking at modernization and development. Can you see how ridiculous that is? It is the particular (the Western neo-liberal ideology, which is but one of many) disguising as the universal. The failures in the past 40 years of development have proven this approach a grand failure already.
(2) My research this summer is EXACTLY about the new ideology which led to the African community not only asking for debt reduction, but also a financial ?plug? of 64 billion dollars a year during the period that they think they need to realize an array of (totally unrealistic) development goals. NEPAD ? The New Partnership for Africa?s Development ? is this new plan, and the African Peer Review Mechanism is what was supposed to serve as a review mechanism for the political and economic development which the subscribers to the programme have undergone. It was supposed to put a check on the governments that wish to enter it, and sanction those that did not qualify. This plan again (like the dependencia theory) places most of the guilt with the West and does in no way engage in some selfreflection for the continent when it comes to the political disorder which is still rampant on the continent and which is the biggest drawback on any possible form of development right now. It is this last issue (corruption, predatory politics and neopatrimonialism) that has drawn my attention, and I intend to serve as an agent which puts these issues in the spotlights so that finally the international community wakes the fuck up and African elites and governments start realizing that real development can never take place until real change takes place. The current way in which Africa politics and economics are exercised are not in any way compatible with the global market which thrives on the neo-liberal economic ideology.
You see, I?m not a fucking treehugger as some of you might seem to think. I?m not a proponent of the way in which the capitalist system and democracy are exercised right now (they mainly serve as a means to expand Western influence and spread Western values globally), but I am most certainly not blind to the fallacies of the systems that still prevail in the community of underdeveloped countries my friend.
The way you look at it would only work in an ideal setting, in which every actor in global economics and politics would be equal. But that is not how it is Sean: capitalism isn?t just about maximizing profits, but also about eliminating competition. It is extractive (I mean, how the fuck do you explain that most of the natural resources we use here come from underdeveloped nations??) and extremely eurocentric (include the US with that). The economies of the Asian Tigers and Dragons (including Japan, China, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, South-Korea) who are now among the strongest and fastest growing in the world did NOT grow in a free market environment, but have been shaped under the tight grip of rather authoritarian governments! Economic development has predominantly taken place where there was political stability, which leads to more confidence with investors. This means that our so much hailed democratic system is not a prerequisite for economic development or participation on the free market. What is important then though, is (1) when civil institutions are not strong enough to promote an environment that facilitates economic development, in most cases the state will have to fulfill this role, and (2) what the approach of a state in control is towards development. So I could in fact agree with your proposal to remove some of the regimes by force, lol?.
Think about it though?.about how practice has already proven the core of the European/US development school at fault. (Western values as a condition for development).
I still have to get back on the extractive nature of Western companies? investment in developing areas though, but this should do for now ;)
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
seriously, how many times do you try to fix your VCR before you throw it away and get a better, newer, DVD player. africa is like the old car your dad had that kept breaking down no matter how much money you pumped into it. cept, the car at least offered you the ability to drive around, i mean comon, africa's offering comes down to diamonds, which are already owned by an african company and pictures of people starving since they dont know how to dig a ditch to bring water 90 feet away from a tributary.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
[QUOTE=KinKyJ]Why do we want to get Africa on the same level as we are anyway? Another continent sucking our oil reserves dry? Fucking up the Kyoto norm even more? Damnit, it's already bad enough that the Chinese are stealing employment from us as it is.
And apart from that, where are we going to sell our obsolete weapons and dump our chemical waste when Africa gets civilised?
God, it's been decades since we've brought civilisation and christianity to the bush, we've taught them how to dig up raw materials and plant banana's, we've built roads, ports airstrips to export it all to civilisation. Then the fuckers thaught they could do better and demanded independence. We gave it to them and what do they have to show for 50 years later? Nada, nothing, niente.
Columbus and the Conquistadores burned, looted, raped and killed throughout the Americas. Now do you hear the Latino's bitchin'? No, they got their shit together and started planting poppys and coca.
It's all Darwin to me. Like Sean said: survival of the fittest.[/QUOTE]
The impact of colonial infrastructure and investment has already been proven close to ZERO Kinky, in fact, the growth numbers at the end of the first decade of independence were much higher than they were at the time of independence (end of colonial era). For who do you think they built hospitals and airstrips? Not for the locals in any case: any investment in infrastructure or any social service has been aimed at the community of white settlers and expats - the technology to maintain this has, as a result, not been transferred to the local population and needed to be imported again. Which was expensive, and you should be able to fill the rest in by now.
Goddamn, the level of ignorance on the mechanisms behind the current situation astonishes the fuck out of me man, you've both been raised with an almost incomprehensibly simplistic view of world economics and politics.
I know you'll be pissed at me, and it's not like I dislike you guys, but don't put it all down as if the world is a simple as a Lego town....
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
[QUOTE=thesightless]seriously, how many times do you try to fix your VCR before you throw it away and get a better, newer, DVD player. africa is like the old car your dad had that kept breaking down no matter how much money you pumped into it. cept, the car at least offered you the ability to drive around, i mean comon, africa's offering comes down to diamonds, which are already owned by an african company and pictures of people starving since they dont know how to dig a ditch to bring water 90 feet away from a tributary.[/QUOTE]
k, after this reply i'm done discussing this. You just lost, and clearly haven't read what have written.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
no i didnt you posted as i was typing. btw what are you lincoln steffins? (didnt think i knew about social and economic policy did ya?i just dont beleive in it and disagree with most of it)
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
lol, so i was too fast with my reply :D and who the f--k is Lincoln Steffins? Hehehe...you're entitled to your own opinion, as long as you don't oversimplify reality. That just kills any decent analysis of the complex problems we're dealing with here...
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
:roll: Alain de Benoist was right, people who think like this should be shipped to new zealand to operate their little shangrila:x
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
[quote=Yao]lol, so i was too fast with my reply :D and who the f--k is Lincoln Steffins? Hehehe...you're entitled to your own opinion, as long as you don't oversimplify reality. That just kills any decent analysis of the complex problems we're dealing with here...[/quote]]
reality is oversimplified you CANNOT cater to every little whino movement or you would have to abandon the concept of cost, wealth, power, and structure and have every single human being on the planet do one specific job in one geographical area, paying each human individually and equally from garbage men to oil exec's and never allow anyone to accumulate money, just operate on a trade barter system.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
There is always the balance to be struck between inclusion and exclusion of factors, but it seems to me that if a certain theory in practice does not yield the desired results, you've missed a few essential factors which obviously are among the key ones to it's succeeding.
Doesn't sound too illogical, does it now?
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
i have to run for awhile, be back in a bit.
sound good marxie?
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Sure Rostow....
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
im doing this from a remote app.. hope it works
look hippie. they cant even feed themselves...... yeah keep pumping money into them... [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4751751.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4751751.stm[/URL]
there will be a cure for 16 bullet wounds to the brain before africa is even remotly looking at being fixed.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
I am against structural food aid - it will kill people but it'll also be an incentive for change. The problem is not that they cannot feed themselves by the way: food is there, but the governments rather sell it on the global market for hard cash than stash it and use it to feed their own population. Isn't the liberal market grand? Money goes over lives, litterally. I doubt that there is no food in the first place, it's just that the free food the UN gives is much cheaper, and this allows the govt to sell their rice on the global market.
Africa is even more capitalist than America in some respects dude....to a sickening degree. Other than that, one news article does not go against the array of studies I have to back my stories up...
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
i just planted a tree for you.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
^^right...implying tree-hugger??
Again?
Dirty neo-con imperialist :D
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
im out of the office so i cant go long on replys for now, but i just ordered you a grateful dead and PLUR tee shirt. should i just mail it to
YAO Europe not america 1111111
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
Yea that'll do [SIZE="5"]cough[/SIZE]coughhopeitgetslost[SIZE="6"]cough[/SIZE]hinthemail[SIZE="5"]cough[/SIZE][SIZE="4"]cough[/SIZE]cough thankyouverymuch :D
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
[quote=thesightless]im out of the office so i cant go long on replys for now, but i just ordered you a grateful dead and PLUR tee shirt. should i just mail it to
YAO Europe not america 1111111[/quote]
LMAO!!!
I just dug up my grandfather, so I can throw in some Jefferson Airplane memorabilia, John Lenon shades, a hash pipe and a bandana.
May the Flower be with you, young Marx
[IMG]http://hippiesylvain.free.fr/IMAGES/hippie%20photos%20vieux.gif[/IMG]
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
yao, i noticed you come from a country where weed is legal? mexico is also one of these countries. i see too many similarities between pablo who mows my lawn and your social views. i think its time you face reality bucko and see that a perfect world is never going to happen, but we need to maintain the status quo and accept that there has to be poor people in the world simply because someone needs to bear the brunt of the leading nations. sorry, but its true.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
lol
quit fucking with me allright Sean, this is becoming too obvious :mrgreen:
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
lmao, yeah, yesterday me and kinky saw you were pissed and decided to divert your attention by pissing you off even more, you should read the PM;s:D
i was like ""turn him into the corner, make him look like lea skywalker (left wing militant) and just disagree with everything he says, he even if he says we need to cure aids.""
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
hahaha, yea i noticed it with Kinky first, and he admitted it. You on the other hand often disagree with me anyway, so it wasn't really out of the ordinary do do that this time. And with the fucked up exam still bugging me like mad I guess I was an easy prey :D
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
like i said, stupid you for studying a feild with zero factual value or real world application other than matt damon movies using it as a tense moment between boston white trash (is there any other kind) and a yuppie.\
""lets debate my view on morals versus yours and we can yell at each other why we are right"""
philosophy is retarded. 7 years of college and from the 4 classes i studied, i learned nothing that i can see anyone using in real life in any way other than making people hate each other.
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
hahah, well i gotta say philosophy's use is mainly limited to the scientific realm, but as policymaking, research and development are also sciences, philosophy has a big impact on it. I myself use certain aspects a lot, thoug be it not on the level of getting lost too much in debates which make you lose the real world out of sight. To me it's rather about science constantly subjecting itself to a review, thus trying to detect its own deficiencies and correct or 'better' itself. To be able to do that, I need to develop a referential thinking cadre from which to work...which I obviously draw from scientific philosophy ;)
Re: bolivia socializes thier oil....................
btw, i guess you're essentially a modernist, and I a post-modernist :D