check the AP sites, and some blogs. more and more, there are citizens rather than ""military"" attacking each other b/c of religion. and most often its a muslim vs ""other"". sadly it seems like the world is breaking into 2 sides with ""other"" fight islam. whether in india and pakistan where they are attacking hindu, in africa they attack coptics, jews and christians in the heart of the middle east are about as safe as a guppy in a piranna tank.

just look today, 4 different attacks by people INSIDE churches, the group of girls who were beaten at uni have now disappeared, the poor convert had to move to italy so a random mob wouldnt kill him. kashmir has seen a surge in attacks on non muslims. the woman who protested cruxifix desecration is now set to be beheaded. in ethiopia an apostate was killed. all in the last two weeks. and yet, in thier regions, the imams and islamo lead government seem to condone this.

the world is rapidly heading down a terrible direction. it is spreading out from the heart of the Middle east into europe (re::german man kills daughter) and further south into africa and east in south asia. sad state of affairs and while it isnt really bad yet, the opinions and view points are spreading quick.

say a fucking prayer whatever religion you are.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

I don't preach to God, but I believe in one.

Just for that, I'm probably dead now...

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Religion is a dangerous game.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

no it isnt. not at all. intolerant people are. you never see a buddist monk walking into a synagogue with a bomb on his chest. nor do see a franciscan friar stabbing somone because they refuse to back jesus.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Mainly, at least that what i see around me in Holland, is that there are two sides created which where not really there before. The big majority of muslims in Holland cannot by far put in the corner of terrorists/religious freaks.

But with what the media, bush and influential muslim leaders have done is making two camps. On one side the 'other' who not wish to be overthrown by relgious muslim freaks (which is actually a very small group) and the other side Muslims who feel pushed in the corner and want to strike back.

You should just ask a random Muslim what he or see thinks about Iran. Not often you hear positive answers in favor of Iran.

But you see what happens. Bush implied more or less that all muslims are bad. Many not to bright people from all over the world believed that and saw a reason in that to do something against those 'turks', 'moroccans' and other muslims who have stolen thier jobs etc etc. So they get more vicious against muslims and they are fed to do that by governements who keep spreading around bad news and warnings. And media (like they always do) enlarge everything what hapens. So if sme bomb was going off again in some muslim country it now makes it to the 8 o'clock evening news. That while before 9/11 it would most likely only be mentioned somewhere at the end of a newspaper. On the same time many actual mild muslims feel threatened and looked upon when they walk down the street. So what do they do, they go and cling on each other more and more. And at those places the few 'rotten apples' can get of more importance.

Quite frankly i do not find it as terrible as how it looks in the media and hope more people see and act on that. The only way forward is through dialogue and many muslims wish to walk that path for sure. Besides i'm not really sure which african country it is, but there are places there where half of the population is christian and half is muslim. On that very place there's has never been any real tension between the two religions.

I'm not saying there arent any religious freaks to look out for. But they exist just as much in many christian society but they just dont happen to have that nasty habit to blow up people. For the rest they are weird and imho retarded just as well. Think of highly religious villages in the USA where incest takes place very much, but also in certain areas in Holland moms and dads do not wish to vaccinate their children against disseases. In a few cases that has led to deaths of those kids dying of very old-style disseases in Holland.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

I've got to agree with Xessex on this one. There's a difference between perception and reality and I think the discours Bush has been spreading is partly the source of the problem. Partly because muslim fanatics take advantage of the hostile atmosphere like Xess stated...

One of my best friends is a muslim, my girlfriend is a muslima and so are all of my Albanian friends in Macedonia... Where does that leave me as a (non-practicing) catholic? I surely don't feel like a guppy in a pirahna tank to be honest. I respect their beliefs and they respect mine. And to be honest, the more we talk and learn about each other, the more it becomes clear that the difference is mainly a matter of details.

Imo, it's up to "sane" people like us to reach out to other sane people praying to a different god and make clear that we won't take this shit anymore rather than jump the stigmatizing band wagon.

Talking in slogans will only polarize the situation even more and I guess that's pretty normal: if I'm member of a certain group that gets insulted all the time and compared to terrorists or whatever, I will automatically become more radical just like many muslims now have a tendancy to radicalize...

Instead of looking for differences and be affraid of them, we should look for common points. Anything that divides a society, makes it weaker. Or like the Belgian national credo goes: unity creates force...

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Exactly Kinky!!

I know a guy from Malaysia who considers himself to be a conservative muslim. The strange thing is that besides the few religious habits as not drinking alcohol and think a tad different about women, we have similar moral values.

You see if you go down to the basics of any religion its nothin more than a guideline of moral standars and those are always based upon respect towards others. Owkay in their timespirit they can contain somewhat weird moral values,but most muslims are quite capable to translate them to these times as well as the majority of christian people. So if you dare to look further than the few strange values/habits you'll see that they are not that much different.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

but its the fanatics on both ends that start the fighting. and normal people get dragged into it when it hits their front door. and frankly, bush isnt trashing the religion as a whole, he is targeting openly those who are aggressive. but this little game of the middle east is going to escalate drastically before its solved.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Well excuse me but Bush it's underlying message is, and its taken over by many, that muslims are evil. Just count how often he uses the words muslim in the same context as terrorism.

But owkay he's not as far as fanatical as some other people

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=Xessex]Well excuse me but Bush it's underlying message is, and its taken over by many, that muslims are evil. Just count how often he uses the words muslim in the same context as terrorism.

But owkay he's not as far as fanatical as some other people[/quote]

That works on both sides: muslim fanatics are Allah Akbarring non stop when people are killed in an attack carried out by a suicide bomber, Bush once said that God wanted him to start the war on Iraq and that God is on the side of the US. To go a little further back in history: the German troopers during WWII had the the text "Got mit uns" engraved on their belt and the favorite slogan of the Crusaders was "God wants it" (which is not so much different from Allah Akbar in fact).

Religion is and always has been a handy tool to recruit people for whatever cause or agenda. To be honest, I pitty those who abuse religion for those ends: if there really is a moment when all of us have to answer for our deeds, it's those guys who are fucked the most...

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

What happen to shoot first ask questions later? Aaaaahhhh, the good ol days.

[IMG]http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/2158.jpg[/IMG]

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[QUOTE=KinKyJ]That works on both sides: muslim fanatics are Allah Akbarring non stop when people are killed in an attack carried out by a suicide bomber, Bush once said that God wanted him to start the war on Iraq and that God is on the side of the US. To go a little further back in history: the German troopers during WWII had the the text "Got mit uns" engraved on their belt and the favorite slogan of the Crusaders was "God wants it" (which is not so much different from Allah Akbar in fact).

Religion is and always has been a handy tool to recruit people for whatever cause or agenda. To be honest, I pitty those who abuse religion for those ends: if there really is a moment when all of us have to answer for our deeds, it's those guys who are fucked the most...[/QUOTE]

^^righton

I also pity those that aren't bright enough to do their own interpretation of what their holy book says, because after all every religious sect within a large religious body is nothing but a group of followers of an interpretation. I just can't help but wonder...what would it mean for fundamentalism if more people would be literate and able to read their holy book themselves? Look at Christianity for example: I think that it has changed towards a more moderated form since the Bible was taken out of the exclusive realm of the religious clergy.

The same might happen for the Qur'an, and another problem with that book is that many people cannot read the original, or are prohibited from reading it by the clergy (claiming interpretative authority over the book).

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Funny how people love to blame religion for the world's problems when in fact it's people who are causing the problems.

By the way the world's most brutal dictators were not religous:

1: Mao Zedong - Socialist (slaughtered over 50 million people) 2. Hitler 3. Lenin 4. Stalin 5. Saddam

They weren't only secular but their core belief was in darwinism which Europe and the US are trying to push kids to learn and believe in to replace religion.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

That is true, though if one of us is willing to do some research that list maybe very well be completed with some very religious names, not to mention religious organs. In addition, it cannot be denied that in virtually all present conflicts there is a religious dimension present, wether it is the actual cause or not.

I do concur though that religious in some cases is only a vehicle to pursue much different end goals, both situations can be found I guess. But it is indeed the people that use it, not the other way around.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=sono]

By the way the world's most brutal dictators were not religous:

1: Mao Zedong - Socialist (slaughtered over 50 million people) 2. Hitler 3. Lenin 4. Stalin 5. Saddam

[/quote]

What the hell is Saddam doing in this list. He doesn't even manage to reach the top 10 of most brutal dicators and i even question a place in the top 20 of the 20st century.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=Xessex]What the hell is Saddam doing in this list. He doesn't even manage to reach the top 10 of most brutal dicators and i even question a place in the top 20 of the 20st century.[/quote]

judging by the media coverage over the last few years you would have to say he is. That is not to say i go by media coverage but in terms of brutality and the killing of children, then saddam is way up there. I also put him in there because he is secular and was not religious.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

What about Idi Amin, now that was some crazy motherfucker. Saddam is like a wanker compared to Amin.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

^^^ Indeed: [URL="http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.html"]http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.html[/URL]

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[I][B]Comment:[/B] By most accounts an illiterate and gluttonous buffoon, Amin has become the subject of many bizarre rumours and myths. There are stories of cannibalism, of feeding the corpses of his victims to crocodiles, of keeping severed heads in a freezer at his home and bringing them out on occasions for "talks" - most or all of which are unsubstantiated, but not necessarily untrue. He is known to have admired the German dictator [URL="http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hitler.html"]Adolf Hitler[/URL], and is quoted as saying that Hitler "was right to burn six million Jews". He is also said to have planned to have a statue of Hitler constructed in Kampala.[/I]

[B]This should say enough!!![/B]

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=Xessex][I]of keeping severed heads in a freezer at his home and bringing them out on occasions for "talks"[/I][/quote]

Now here's a tip to soften the loneliness for pickle since his roomie is moving out :lol:

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Are you PM-ing it to him, or will I do it? :D

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

quit whining you hippie burnout. bro, go get an army together and knock Mao off the list. yao, if you murder and ethnically cleanse the 3 rd world you can use your power to implement peace. god i have had just about enough of you whining. like i said b4, go solve the problems with force if you have to.

[IMG]http://www.webpasties.com/xmlHttpRequest/jeez.jpg[/IMG]

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

Interesting theory thesightless. I see posibilities for a tv-show with you starring in it.

Fox presents Verbal Riots!, the weekly spicy politics show hosted by the one and only 'Thesightless'. For all you ever not wanted to know about politics and for truly questionable objectivity. What more do you fellow Americans want!

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

xessex, go hug a tree.

i am perfec tly capable of sitting for a valid chat, but opt to voice rash opinions that shouldnt be taken seriously.

in all seriousness though, nothing in the middle east or africa will be solved peacefully.

1. people with power, or the desire to obtain more power, will fight to the end to hold on. see saddam and taleban and mugabe.
2. when religion is involved, all bets are off, and it WILL get very violent in the end.

like i have said before, its all good fun to dream of a peaceful world, but to get there, its gonna take pressure from one side, and if not, you will have the next charles taylor hiding in the shadows selling his ideas and eventually taking over. its just the way it is and history has consistenly proven us right. hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

ex. WW2. it took TWO nukes to even slow japan down, why? cuz the axis saw an opputunity to make a historical land grab and went for it.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=thesightless]xessex, go hug a tree.

i am perfec tly capable of sitting for a valid chat, but opt to voice rash opinions that shouldnt be taken seriously.

in all seriousness though, nothing in the middle east or africa will be solved peacefully.

1. people with power, or the desire to obtain more power, will fight to the end to hold on. see saddam and taleban and mugabe.
2. when religion is involved, all bets are off, and it WILL get very violent in the end.

like i have said before, its all good fun to dream of a peaceful world, but to get there, its gonna take pressure from one side, and if not, you will have the next charles taylor hiding in the shadows selling his ideas and eventually taking over. its just the way it is and history has consistenly proven us right. hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

ex. WW2. it took TWO nukes to even slow japan down, why? cuz the axis saw an opputunity to make a historical land grab and went for it.[/quote]

i agree with one point. Religious fanatics are so difficult to fight, they won't give up until they are all dead.

But you can never bomb your way to a solution either. The ideology will always stay there even if you kill everyone.

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=sono]i agree with one point. Religious fanatics are so difficult to fight, they won't give up until they are all dead.

But you can never bomb your way to a solution either. The ideology will always stay there even if you kill everyone.[/quote]

And on top of that, when you take out a religious leader using military force, you'll only feed the ideology by creating another marter.

Don't know what the solution to this problem might be, but since the threat isn't connected to states and borders anymore like during the Cold War, this is a complete different ball game... Maybe the Bush administration should wake up and realise this before they fuck up the entire US military capacity and have to bend over for foreign agressors...

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

[quote=Yao]Are you PM-ing it to him, or will I do it? :D[/quote]

If you ask me, Amin got his inspiration in KC in the first place :lol:

Re: civil war my ass. there is about to be a holy war.

this thread is awesome.

I laugh at people who can't survive without someone to lead them. It takes one fucked up individual to use religion as an excuse and whala, everyone is following him.

If you took a Jew and a Muslim as kids and have them grow up together they will be friends. IMO, there is a God but all religion is man made. Why follow a belief that a man made? :NotMe: I just love how people take religion, and make people believe in it so much that they would kill themselves for it. I wish the Miami Dolphins could get their players believe in football the same way.

Why did Osama allow the US to help them in the Soviet-Afghan war? Aren't we his biggest enemy and yet he accepted us for help. I don't understand it since he was at a Holy war with us. O wait, Osama knew his beliefs were bullshit.

In all of this, my heart goes out to the innocent people that get killed in the middle. How many more innocent lives have to die especially the ones in Iraq who just want to go about their business? People all over are just plain stupid.

I think leaders need to look at ways to solve this and not attack individual groups. Bush is not a leader so we are fucked until 2008. For a modern world we are only repeating history. Look at previous wars. Christians vs Muslims, Muslims vs Jews, its all the same shit over and over. Get rid of religion and what would the world be like today? Maybe the same. just my opinion