Every industrialist who benefits from cheap chinese 1 dolllar a month hard working kid should be put in jail before we even start talking about how good his products may be, or how cheap it sold to us!!!

It is to blame chinese authorities, and also the whole industrial world that benefits from this situation! :x

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

That?s capitalism, dude!!

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

if only we had some more members with your kind of thinking Skatebuf, we could open some factories down there as well... ;)

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

Just imagine 20 years from now - maybe 10 - you'll pay a dollar for a pair of jeans (and 10 for a glas of water - not the point) sold in china shop wherever, while 90% of your friends will be out of a job - for isntance!

Capitalism my ass!!

I support "fair trade" - it's a bit more expensive, but supports African market circles included!:!:

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

Are you a communist boy? You sure smell like one...

I think it's a good thing, it makes governements here in the West reconsidder investing in obsolete industries in favour of supporting emerging ones...

Free trade or bust :p

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

[quote=Skatebuf]Every industrialist who benefits from cheap chinese 1 dolllar a month hard working kid should be put in jail before we even start talking about how good his products may be, or how cheap it sold to us!!!

It is to blame chinese authorities, and also the whole industrial world that benefits from this situation! :x[/quote] In two words thats the situation- However 80% of chinese workers dont have any other option.Why? Because China has 1 billion people inhabitants.Just imagine thats 1/6 of Earths population...Mathematically it is not possible the average salary in that sector to be more than that.And yes of course its capitalism.

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

I agree, but the west world should try to survive "alone" - couse then we're saying it's good that some innocent kid works for us, so we can buy nice cars and go on a nice holiday ..... Yes it's capitalism - it gives opportunities but allways on someones back!!

And I am a capitalist - fair one!!

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

not me, if i can make a shirt by paying some 9 year old korean kid a penny or pay some over inflated union worker from detroit 200 bucks , im going korean. fuck emerging markets and poor people, its just nature's new way of letting the strong survive. now lemee feel how truly comfortable my Puma's are,,,,, aahhh.

kidding of course, fair wages are great, but you can only blame domestic workers, and the government for forcing the hands of these corps do go elsewhere. when a fucking 22 year old apprentice electrician has a contract for 45 an hour plus benifits and insurance to be covered by the employers, something is wrong. if the damn unions stopped getting greedy, company boards wouldnt be so eager to jump ship to mexico, asia, and the middle east. just look at what the tech sector has done since their employees fought for more. they picked up the phone, called a nice real estate broker in pakistan and opened up a support center there. too fucking bad i say about all this. especially when its an american who bitches about it because they obviously have zero clue on financing a company's operations and the cost of labor. jeez i mean do some ppl even realize? example, a client of mine is on eof the bigger billboard producers in NYC. after the local signhangers union re negotiated their contract the benifits package nearly doubled. so, upon a reccomendation from us, they fired about a dozen workers who fabricated the signs, and we are now haivng them prodced by a private company in rhode island and saving well over 37%.

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

[B]Exactly!![/B]

[B]Fuckers ..... suckers ..... [/B]

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

dammit i failed. i was hoping, as usual, to contradict someone and start an arguement........ no fun 4 me.

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

oh oh oh i found a way
BLAME THE DEMOCRATS

1. they voted for and sponsored NAFTA
2. they backed most favored trading status for china.
3. they stand behind union progression which is rapidly sending jobs elsewhere. (see:: auto industry)
4. they fought for, in the early 90's more leeway in financial reporting and monitoring of the SEC, which as we all know lead to the small recession we had during the end of clinton, beginning of bush administrations.

toasty--- lets have at it.

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

I say fuck the democrats and fuck the republicans as well!!

It's on us to make a difference to not get sucked into a cupon, discount, opportiunity grabbing tricks that makes the poor little chinese boy stay where he's at!! In short!

Sorry!

Wanna argue? Make a statement... and we'll see!!

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

[quote=Skatebuf]I say fuck the democrats and fuck the republicans as well!!

It's on us to make a difference to not get sucked into a cupon, discount, opportiunity grabbing tricks that makes the poor little chinese boy stay where he's at!! In short!

Sorry!

Wanna argue? Make a statement... and we'll see!![/quote] Strange, I made a statement before but you didn't react to it. Prolly because it wasn't about poor little children being exploited ... Anyway, let's try again...

Ok, say we boycot the products your poor little chinese homeboy puts together in a sweatshop for a dollar per month (the Puma's/Levi's/Nike's you're wearing for instance, the PC screen you're looking at or the buttplug you got for Christmas)... In that case the sweatshop lays off people and your little Confucius can go out every day to have his dick sucked in order to be able to contribute to the family budget.

Oh, you think I'm overreacting? When I was in the Dominican Republic, I felt kinda bad cuz I was kickin' it in a five star all in resort, while the staff had to work over 12hrs per day. When I talked to one of the waiters about that, he laughed at me and said: "If you weren't here sipping a cocktail at the pool, I'd probably be cutting sugar cane all day long. You figure it out..."

Oh and btw, this one I liked very much:

[quote=Skatebuf]Just imagine 20 years from now - maybe 10 - you'll pay a dollar for a pair of jeans (and 10 for a glas of water - not the point) sold in china shop wherever, while 90% of your friends will be out of a job - for isntance![/quote] Complete bullshit: first of all, prices will never drop that low since you still have fixed costs like marketing, R&D, transport & logistics, staff in other countries working at conditions own to where they work (as you know, you can't employ someone in the EU at the same conditions as in China).

Apart from that, it's pretty naieve to think that the growth of the Chinese market will be near to infinite. At a certain point it will adjust itself to the global market just as the global market is adjusting itself to China. Salaries will rise and working conditions will improve, which is already happening now. More and more Chinese are getting interested in traveling and leisure (that's why a Belgian delegation went over this week to promote our country as a travel destination). And no, that's not because the capitalist pigs in the board rooms will suddenly become friendly with the staff, it's because when a too large segment of the population works too many hours per day while earning hear to nothing, you won't have any consumers left in your own market... That's the reason why Japan passed a number of laws a few months ago that made doing overtime less interesting and stimulate employees to take time off (and consume).

Saying that the Chinese will take over our jobs is crap as well (at least to the extent as you're suggesting). Yes, there will be a loss of jobs, but the same thing happened when the Iron curtain dropped. Massive unemployment will only occur when the labour market here stops following global trends and politicians try desperately to keep certain industries alive.

To give you a little example from the micro cosmos I live in: Belgium is a federal country divided into two large parts (actually three, but I don't want to make it more complicated by explaining our system). When the Industrial Revolution dawned, the North (Flanders) was a "poor" region and the South (Wallonie) was the economic heart because of the coal mines and steel mills present there. During the 60's and 70's the situation inverted because Flanders invested massively in infrastructure (highways, railroads, the ports) and R&D. Meanwhile, the Walloon authorities kept pumping money into the old industries, trying to obtain a status quo. Result: Wallonie has fucked itself over by holding on to the past (high unemployment, no real answer to production industry moving away to cheaper countries, ...), while Flanders picks the fruit of assessing it's unique selling points and exploiting them to the fullest...

[quote=Skatebuf]I support "fair trade" - it's a bit more expensive, but supports African market circles included!:!:[/quote] Very nice of you. But sticking feathers up your ass doesn't make you a chicken. Trust me, I've been a volunteer for Oxfam for years but at a certain moment it hitted me: first support your own, then go caring about the rest of the world. I support the system which feeds me, clothes me, enables me to buy/build a home for my future family and gives me the means to make sure my kids will get propper education and training so that they too can build a life...

Capitalism my ass? Neo hippie propaganda my ass!

Hope the "statement level" of all of the above is sufficient for you ;)

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

[FONT=Arial]OK a lot of what you said is true (and you said loads) but still...[/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]It is about a little poor boy who helps industrialists to be as big as they are ? right?! And even if we go to a Dominican Republlic to sip a nice cockatil so a few can live better, there's still a little boy who made cute little umbrellas to make your cocktail look apealing ? right?![/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Next ? prices are droping (and I was overreacting to make a point) and small family companies are closing down, couse a big sucker bougt his stuff from Chinese! I didnt say it will go infinite, but till it adjusts to a global market, millions of chinese will die poor (beyon our imagination)!![/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]And what if some Chinese turists will come to Belgium (nice country btw) ? that's maybe few % of those who are able to live decently as we speak ? and other millions of them?? You think it's getting better ? I think it's getting worse (again beyond our imagination). Nice example though ? but Belgium is just a small world with completely different backgroud! You are an optimist, well so am I.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]About the Fair trade ? you must have shops selling goods labeled with ?Fair trade? mark ? it means that the bigger % of the price you pay gets dirrectly into the hands of manufacturers ? there's the gvt ?loss? as they skip some taxes! [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]I like this: [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sticking feathers up your ass doesn't make you a chicken ? it doesn't, it makes me a little feather and more feathers we stick up we can make a chicken for the poor little chinese boy to bring home. And it's not neo hippie propaganda ? it is necessity!![/FONT] [FONT=Arial] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Tell me, do you really believe we could survive without our little poor boy?? We have to adjust too![/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]At least you're thinking!!;) [/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT]

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

To make it more complicated for you:

Recently 12 countries were added to the EU, and for inhabitants of those countries it is now largely possible to enter the 'old' European countries without visa, meaning: we get an influx of cheap labour force in here from the Eastern European block. Now you get a lot protests against that, because these people will at this moment work for much lower wages than the local people are willing to.

Eventually though,

1: prices in Eastern Europe will adapt to the market rates, meaning they will go up. This among other reasons simply because they will have to start dealing with the tax rates and VAT rates that are imposed in the EU, along with minimum wages and all that shit. There's a whole load of regulation pouring down on those countries right now, as well as madatory investment in infrastructure of all kinds. There's more to it, which i hope to word in a decent way later on, can't really seem to do that right now :D 2: as a result of 1, the salaries over there and the ones from those that work here, will have to go up as well, since life will become much more expensive: there's no such thing as a free ride, or 2 economies connecting, but not affecting each other.

The more the Chinese economy becomes connected to the global market, the more the circumstances in which the economy is embedded will adapt themselves to those of other economies connected to that same market.

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

Riiiiiight, finally some real arguments instead of slogans, me likes!

[quote=Skatebuf][FONT=Arial]OK a lot of what you said is true (and you said loads) but still...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]It is about a little poor boy who helps industrialists to be as big as they are ? right?![/quote] Wrong. I'm sorry to say that perspective was popular with the marxists/communists/... in the 20th century, but it's completely outdated today. Back then the "industrialsts" (yet another outdated word that comes from the same era) did suck the "working class" dry so that they could maintain their "bourgeois lifestyle" (tought I'd throw this one in myself, hehehe). When you take a look at the situation today, you notice that although working conditions aren't always as good as they are in the EU, the picture is more balanced: both employees and employers need eachother and benefit from the relation they have. Consumers need money, companies need people to get things done. The days of massively treating employees like cattle are over.

I know what you're going to say: what about the people in the sweatshops? Well hell, the more the Chinese economy can consolidate and control its growth, the faster working conditions will improve... The low cost of labour isn't the only reason why China booms like it does. Most factory workers move from the (in general poor) provinces to industrial centers with one goal only: work their skinny asses off for three years in order to earn the mondey they need to build a house for their family when they return. That's the only focus the majority of the employees have and it's a guarrantee for high productivity (cutting yet again something off the cost to make a product)

[/FONT][quote=Skatebuf][FONT=Arial]And even if we go to a Dominican Republlic to sip a nice cockatil so a few can live better, there's still a little boy who made cute little umbrellas to make your cocktail look apealing ? right?![/quote] Right. But is that something I should be ashamed of? The Dominican Republic has two large industries: tourism and agriculture. With the prices of sugar being close to rock botom (yet again because governments that hold on to the past disturb the market price by pumping a lot of money into their own farmers), tourism is crucial for the country's developement. If the tourists don't bring in money, there are no available means to invest in infrastructure like roads, sewers, electricity, ... So in a way sipping a cocktail in Punta Cana helps the country to improve the quality of life in general...

Or to bring it closer to home: I've been travelling a lot to Macedonia lately (cuz of my gf) and what do you see there? An unemployment rate of +/- 70% while the labour market crawls with young, highly skilled people. Why is this? Corruption is one reason, the fact that there is no money to invest in new projects is another one (don't forget that Macedonia has been independant for only 10-15yrs now). The aid coming from the US and the EU, substantial as it may be, isn't the "magical solution" that will change things. Tourists spending their money is a source which feeds the local economy directly and stimulates people to empower themselves and to take initiative. [/FONT] [quote=Skatebuf][FONT=Arial]Next ? prices are droping (and I was overreacting to make a point) and small family companies are closing down, couse a big sucker bougt his stuff from Chinese! I didnt say it will go infinite, but till it adjusts to a global market, millions of chinese will die poor (beyon our imagination)!![/quote] Let's not forget who has been putting small companies here out of business for years now: supermarkets and chains owned by large (mostly German and French) distribution groups like Metro. Most of the rooting out has already been done without the help of the Chinese. But then again, that's a natural evolution. I mean, do you still have a blacksmith where you live? No, because they became obsolety as the world evolved...

And yet again, if Chinese companies can open up markets here, it will benefit the guy who pushes buttons on a machine in Beijing as well... [/FONT] [quote=Skatebuf][FONT=Arial]And what if some Chinese turists will come to Belgium (nice country btw) ? that's maybe few % of those who are able to live decently as we speak ? and other millions of them?? You think it's getting better ? I think it's getting worse (again beyond our imagination). Nice example though ? but Belgium is just a small world with completely different backgroud! You are an optimist, well so am I.[/quote] When my grandparents had my age, a trip to the seaside (roughly 180kms) was a hell of a holiday. Today I take out my VISA and book a ticket to Mauritius if I feel like doing that.Such drastic improvements in the quality of living didn't happen overnight and neither will it happen in China.

Btw, where are you from? [/FONT] [quote=Skatebuf][FONT=Arial]About the Fair trade ? you must have shops selling goods labeled with ?Fair trade? mark ? it means that the bigger % of the price you pay gets dirrectly into the hands of manufacturers ? there's the gvt ?loss? as they skip some taxes! [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]I like this: [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sticking feathers up your ass doesn't make you a chicken ? it doesn't, it makes me a little feather and more feathers we stick up we can make a chicken for the poor little chinese boy to bring home. And it's not neo hippie propaganda ? it is necessity!![/quote] Don't worry, I was just pissing you off a little with this one. My point just was that the solution is a little more complex than buying honest products and honest prices (to tell you the truth, I still buy wine and pisco at Oxfam, love the taste of it) [/FONT] [quote=Skatebuf][FONT=Arial]Tell me, do you really believe we could survive without our little poor boy?? We have to adjust too![/quote] Yes we could. The only consequence would be that prices would go up again. Let me give ya a little rebound: do you really believe our poor little boy could survive without us? And with surviving I mean also getting opportunities to improve his life without waiting for a C-130 to drop bags of rice on his head... [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]There's always more than one side to a story... [/FONT]

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

fuck, that was a big ass post :D

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

Yeah, get a life man....

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

Jeez i have never seen such ridiculous arguing over something so stupid. If a kid is willing to work and a culture thinks thats fine......that is their perogative. KIDS IN POOR COUNTRIES WORK.....ITS JUST A FACT OF LIFE. Whether theyre picking crops all day for their parents or sewing patches on to shirts is irrelevant. If people want to, they can encourage businesses not to hire poor kids. Then they have the privilege of attending these kids funerals or explaining why their being sold on the black labor market when mommy and daddy can't quite make ends meet. Welfare isn't going to catch them if their unemployed and a do-gooders conscience clearly aint gonna do shit for them either.

Plus, people can't work if they recieve no utility......and anyone who knows about management knows that equitable work places are a matter of human disposition. You don't need fairness legislation. Eventually all the chinese will bitch about not making as much money as people in the West......wages will rise......and as quickly as they complained, they lose their jobs back to Westerners.

Being "on top" in a capitalist society just means "next to fall". You couldn't say that back when mercantilism or planned economies ruled. Rulers/Nobility couldn't be knocked off with out war or assassination.

I'm glad I live in a world where I'm using my brain to try to solve social ills and improve global standard of living; rather than drawing up battle plans to murder a despot. Instead of resolving to take our luxuries away and give them to other people, why don't we try to figure out a way to help them create their own luxuries?

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

[B]To KinKyJ[/B]

Oh man, you got way too much time for me!!

Again, a lot of what you're saying is true, BUT STILL!!!

Nice talkin to you though!!

Gotta go to work! 8)

Re: China is the bigest threat to global market balance

[quote=Skatebuf][B]To KinKyJ[/B]

Oh man, you got way too much time for me!! [/quote] One of the advantages of being your own boss ;)

[quote=Skatebuf] Again, a lot of what you're saying is true, BUT STILL!!![/quote] But still what? Hey man, you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm not trying to brainwash you, in due time you'll find out by yourself how the mechanisms work.

[quote=Skatebuf]Nice talkin to you though!!

Gotta go to work! 8)[/quote] Huh? Did you already cut your hair and get a job? Way to go hippie :twisted: (j/k :p)