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[quote=Yao]Sightless and Evangelion: I have no idea what the media are feeding you, but do yourself a favour and find yourself a nice mainstream Muslim forum and sign into it, spend a few weeks there and then rethink those rants.[/quote]
Here we go again with the media making up my mind and blah blah blah. Looks like we're right back to form, Yao. :|

[quote=Kobe]I'm glad to hear you are just kidding, although none of us including the guy who agreed with you could detect that sarcasm. Unless evangelion is going to come in here and say he was kidding too, LOL![/quote]
Are we reading the same thread?? Because I remember agreeing to this...

[quote=thesightless]now ur thinking.;)

there is no solution to any of this for anyone but the muslim population itself. [B]THEY [/B]need to realize the world around them changed. [B]THEY[/B] need to either accept it or stay away from it, [B]NOT [/B]ask us to change for them. [B]THEY[/B] are the ones who need to force bin laden, zaquari (spelling i know) , and the lot out in to the open. [B]THEY[/B] are the one who need to accept we have freedoms to insult religion on [B]OUR[/B] lands.[B] THEY[/B] are the ones who need to start showing outrage over the discovery of bodies and the kidnappings and parades where little shit children are paraded around with bombs and guns. [B]THEY [/B]are people who need to unite and offer peace to each other and work with us, not the other way around. we have progressed beyond the confinement of women, banning of homosexuality, capital punishment for being a rape victim.

but until then, i will ignore any person who calls us ""generalizers"" or racist. because right now, as we stand, i have yet to see any reason to beleive the muslim population at large has progressed into a civil body. they have given zero reason to consider them a peaceful, loving soiciety. not one i can see. even here in NY, we have the islamist thinkers society who walk aorund with signs calling for hte death of americans and another 9/11. they even go after thier own people, women who dont wear burkas , men who dress like american people. i dont see groups of muslims yelling at them to shut up. all thier popular figures are violent, rash people. the two muslims who came to prominence for critiquing their religion have had fatwahs issued on their heads. (rushdie and the dutch PM). both now live under police protection.[/quote]

Not this...

[quote=thesightless]more bombs will. stop trying to differentiate between the groups, just bomb em all until ur sure you get the bad ones. after about a week of bombing you'll find out who the innocents are when they hand over the bad ones. like in northern afghan, if we just start bombing random houses, eventually one person will point us to bin laden, hell shoot the kids who have guns, its the same thing, but the schock factor will accelerate the process.[/quote]

Which if you could not tell was completely in jest you need to come down off of your soapbox and not think that everthing is so damn serious. Or maybe it was me agreeing so you just figured that was the way I was going. I'll take the latter.

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gotcha, I was out of sequence, sorry about that! Top post Sightless, I agree too (shocked!) ;)

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[QUOTE=KinKyJ]I guess Bush's spin doctors have the same favourite movie as Berlusconi: Citizen Kane. "The hand that rocks the cradle rocks the world..."

Why did Clinton get fucked for fucking some dimwit aid? Because the media blew it out of proportions. Why did the American people massively support an illegal war in which they don't believe anymore? Because of the lies and the media circus.

Or (in order to avoid being called a selfrightious Yankie basher) why have the Netherlands been flipping out when it came to their model of a multicultural society? Because of the frenzy in the media after the murder on Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh. I'm not minimalising that last thing at all, I'm just saying that if the public opinion didn't get so pumped up by the media (and yeah, politicians trying to pull some electoral gain out of the murders), the socialist party hadn't beaten the crap out of the right wing front yesterday at municipal elections... I've heard a girl saying on the news she hoped that agression and the extreme opinions will make place again for a more balanced general perception... I guess that sums it up perfectly...[/QUOTE]

Nah, the girl is right. Both those events have been blown out of proportion by the media here, and seems like everyone has lost the ability to look at our society through their own eyes instead of through the damn papers and TV-bulletins...

@ Evangelion: you've made my point about the media by posting that pic in the first place bro. Not attacking you personally, just hoping you would be willing to take a step back and take a broader perspective...

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the only thing i will add is this, and its directed at kinky j

in regards to how you once told me you were referring to your gal who is an albanian muslim, and then you posted her pic, do you realize the overwhelming majority of both men and women in the core of the middle eastern countries would consider your girl not to be a true muslim for a few reasons. 1. assuming you arent muslim, she is associating with non muslim, 2. she isnt in any semblence of a tradional garb, 3. she is in a serious relationship before marriage, 4. i assume she has embraced the foreign countries that are spoke of in this quote from the quaran by living, working and dating, not to mention shopping, watching tv, eating, etc.

[QUOTE]When We wish to destroy a city, we first give warning to those of its people who live in comfort to accept our commands. But if they reject us, judgment is irrevocably passed, and we wage utter annihilation." ([I]The Qur'an - Sura 17:16[/I])[/QUOTE]

this is not an attack on you or yo gal, just an observation on a group of people.

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[URL="http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/03/yemen-newspaper-editor-faces-death-for.php"]http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/03/yemen-newspaper-editor-faces-death-for.php[/URL]

[URL="http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2006/03/08/egypt.html#more"]http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2006/03/08/egypt.html#more[/URL] (dont read anything on this site unless you are cowardlyDj, bbut this story is true.)

and here in america [URL="http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/62925.htm"]http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/62925.htm[/URL]

nice little political party here [URL="http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=99839"]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=99839[/URL]

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I could never agree with or understand why Islam is such a totalitarian religion, it is seriously "You are with us, or against us." Yet people talk shit about Bush for having the same stance...how does that work??

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Personally I think we should eradicate all religion. I'm against anything that replaces rational thought with dogma. Spirituality good, religion bad.

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no all religion is a good thing imo, it gives people something to hope for, something to fall back on, and strenght when times are bad. but its when one takes their personal religious beleifs and forces them upon others when not asked to. if someone asks you about your view on your god then hey, go have fun talking about it. but when a group of people want to kill someone 3 thousand miles away because they insulted the prophet, jesus, budda, whoever, then THOSE people are taking it too far. no religion has the right to impede another.

personally i will attest when my grandfather died the only solace my grandmother had was in prayer (roman catholic). it gives a sense of hope, understanding and tranquility.

if you want to case the specific area of islam, then look to the quiet majority. the ones who truly advocate peace and when times are rough, go to mosque, not parade the streets, burn things and more. a lot of them can be found in our own neighborhoods.

not to contradict myself though, i am still waiting to see these people, the quiet section, to voice thier dissatisfaction with the violent frontmen of their religion. and moreso, the people in palestine and iran for electing militant, violent, brash leaderships hell bent on destruction. if you want to trash our government here, well, bush was quiet on war until 2 dozen people flew palnes into my city. we elected a pres who was expected to be normal, not violent(failed here IMO), but we did it. if he were a war monger during campaign he would have been lucky to get 5%.

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[quote=Kobe]Personally I think we should eradicate all religion. I'm against anything that replaces rational thought with dogma. Spirituality good, religion bad.[/quote]

Hey, something we can agree on. :D

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[quote=KinKyJ] I've been having a relationship with a woman who's 8yrs younger than me, has a double D and more brain cells than you even if you would clone yourself three times... [/quote]

would it be out of line to ask for some photos of her? :twisted:

just kidding. trying to lighten up this thread :roll:

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[quote=Kobe]Personally I think we should eradicate all religion. I'm against anything that replaces rational thought with dogma. Spirituality good, religion bad.[/quote]

It seems that religion is more of an excuse that anything else. It is great to believe in something or someone, but to go out and push these beliefs on everyone else is a problem. Every major war event has to do with religion. Its a shame that people can't see the bigger picture and that we all live on the same planet. We need to get along. IMO, the shit is still not at its worst. I do expect more nasty shit to happen in the near future. :|

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[quote=speciale]would it be out of line to ask for some photos of her? :twisted:

just kidding. trying to lighten up this thread :roll:[/quote]

Anything to lighten up this topic man, even if it means I've gotta pull out my woman from under her burka :twisted:

[IMG]http://users.pandora.be/jspot/forum/042.jpg[/IMG]

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which one is she? :D

==============

Sean, you are right... they need to step forward and make their voices heard. But at the same time, would you not agree that the extreme voices of our own society have become louder over recent time? I still think we are all guilty of the same crime here-- letting the extremist assholes run the show for the rest of us.

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The right one :roll:

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[quote=Yao]@ Evangelion: you've made my point about the media by posting that pic in the first place bro. Not attacking you personally, just hoping you would be willing to take a step back and take a broader perspective...[/quote] How?? How did the "media" make me think that some dipshits holding up signs about massacring people, for any reason much less religion, is fucking stupid and a sign of non-developed minds?? If they were Christians I would have done the same thing. Same if they were Republicans, Democrats, whites, blacks, yellows...whatever. The point is the message of the signs, not the ethneticity of those holding them. But seeing as how neither the Republicans or Democrats have held riots that killed people, destroyed buildings or caused general hysteria lately, those in the picture are the ones available at this time.

When the Christians and Jews are holding up signs that say "Massacre those that defile Jesus" or "Gentiles go to Hell" they will be right here in this thread, getting ripped to pieces by me. But, for some strange reason, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. Do you??

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Dude, you place the pic and then throw some incredibly generalizing quote to go with it. But I haven't really seen you try to do the opposite thing here yet. It's not about WHO is protesting, it's your way of treating that news.

And I am definitely under the impression that many Americans, much more than Europeans, have this way of looking at the news because it is all they get fed. So far the only American news source that has so much as tried to strike a balance is CNN, which you all loathe because it is 'too leftist', while IMO it is one of the few really critical and objective news sources you have over there.

I think there is a serious attitude difference, and it is NOT because you Americans have been hit so hard by the Muslim community. You've had a few attacks, we've had the Moors occupy Spain for fucks sake. In my country out of 16 million people we have 1 million Muslims. We were almost a Muslim continent, but still we manage to be less itchy about our Eastern neighbours. How come?

Please remember that this is not a personal attack, I've just tried to point out something that confuses the hell out of me, and I just think I've found what may be big part of the cause: the media is used as a tool to keep you from forming your own opinion based on unbiased fact. I know it also happens here, but much less: somehow the tradition in the media is a bit different here.

On a different note: a Moroccan guy on a Dutch/Moroccan forum had a great idea: he wondered why Turkish Muslims aren't radicalizing, but Moroccans are, in the Netherlands. The solution my well be that the Moroccan youth can't understand shit from the sermons they attend because it's all in Arabic (and they don't speak Arabic!), so they have to find alternative sources for their knowledge which can to say the least be very doubtful in nature.

Giving the sermons in Dutch might solve this problem, since all of them do speak Dutch. It might keep the away from the extremists trying to bring them to their side by feeding them the twisted version of the Quran.

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[quote=Yao]Dude, you place the pic and then throw some incredibly generalizing quote to go with it. But I haven't really seen you try to do the opposite thing here yet. It's not about WHO is protesting, it's your way of treating that news.[/quote] What do you mean..."Do the opposite??" Defend people I think are brainwashed, "looking-for-any-reason-to-riot" idiots??

[quote=Yao] And I am definitely under the impression that many Americans, much more than Europeans, have this way of looking at the news because it is all they get fed. So far the only American news source that has so much as tried to strike a balance is CNN, which you all loathe because it is 'too leftist', while IMO it is one of the few really critical and objective news sources you have over there.[/quote] I give you a perfectly valid explanation and yet I'm still "only believing what I'm being fed." Why do I even try??

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Looks like we're both totally not seeing the otherone's point here I'm afraid. Let's call it quits, since I don't feel like having a discussion that isn't really a discussion anyway....

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Then what is it?

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We're arguing :D

Ok, seriously now:

I would go a bit more in-depth, but am a little bit too occupied with school work at this very moment. Though if you wish, I will do it later on (maybe next week, when I have more time again), and make my point, allright? didn't mean to blow you off, I'm just too full of other stuff right now to go and type a very long post on this ;)

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Take your time, this thread isn't going anywhere. ;)

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[quote=evangelion]Take your time, this thread isn't going anywhere. ;)[/quote]

Been thinking that for like a week already :p

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I meant physically, not philisophically. :what

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applicable to both imo ;)

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[quote=Yao] And I am definitely under the impression that many Americans, much more than Europeans, have this way of looking at the news because it is all they get fed. So far the only American news source that has so much as tried to strike a balance is CNN, which you all loathe because it is 'too leftist', while IMO it is one of the few really critical and objective news sources you have over there. [/quote] Bwahhhhhhhhhhhh Yao, seriously, CNN balanced? Nothing more than an appologist station for anti-westernism!

[quote=Yao] I think there is a serious attitude difference, and it is NOT because you Americans have been hit so hard by the Muslim community. You've had a few attacks, we've had the Moors occupy Spain for fucks sake. In my country out of 16 million people we have 1 million Muslims. We were almost a Muslim continent, but still we manage to be less itchy about our Eastern neighbours. How come? [/quote] Mmmmm, lets see, whats the word i'm looking for. . . . appeasment!

It never worked when Chamberlin tried it with Hitler and it wont work now. European have to take a stand and do it before its too late.

I have no objections to people following their own beliefs, but you must do so in the confines of the countries you live in.

If Europe is not careful then you, like Spain all those years ago, will become nothing more than an extension of Islamic imperialism .

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AAARRGGHH Dave...did i mention anything about Europe condoning the shit that is going on right now? I don't think so: I definitely want Europe to take a stand now, but what I loathe is simple unfounded panic reactions such as I see with some of our counterparts across the Atlantic man.

Take me as an example: I want my country to deal with extremists, in the hardest possible way. Does that mean that I start generalizing the Muslim community in my country and quit the dialogue? No sir...for it is vital to keep that going to increase understanding and mutual respect.

Appeasement is not my game, nor should it be Europe's. But I refuse to go into that anti Islam bandwagon alltogether if you don't mind.

As for CNN: seriously, if it's not blatantly pro-western it's anti-western? Maaaaan....I can't believe reading this coming from you. If there's one channel bringing you a little bit of culture (although they definitelt do not do so in an anthropological way), it's CNN. American needs a big ass input of knowledge about other cultures. The only reason they know about Israel is because America loves your country, but most of them know fuckall about the Arabic culture as far as I can judge right now.