So I'm laying on my bed, just kinda listening to the news. And all of a sudden I hear Johnny Boy's unmistakable voice taking shots at Bush (as usual). He's going on and on about this and that when the last thing he says...and I quote (kinda, I was half asleep) "a president who won't even give our soldiers the things they need, like body armor!!!"

[size=6]WHAT!!!!! [/size]

If I'm not mistaken isn't this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible????

I said flip, flop A flip, flip, flop and ya don't stop

And judging from the poll in the other forum [b]most[/b] of you want this guy to [b]RUN OUR COUNTRY AND MOST OF THE FREE WORLD!!!!!![/b]

Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

ahh the infamous 'flip flop' .. haha..since my mom is dating a rather annoying Politician, i am very familiar with these flip flops.. ..being able to flip flop around issues seems to be a prerequisite for being a Politician nowadays..

But then again, if some1 makes an argument which criticizes an opponent's policy, they don't necessarily have to sell the wisdom of their own viewpoint at the same time.
..so instead of trying to gain a vote, they can focus on trying to take a vote away from their opponent.. in the end, if a voter decides NOT to vote for some1 in particular, it makes the job of the other guy much much easier..

stoopid marketing stratagies need to stay out of Politics dammit..!!

nick

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion]So I'm laying on my bed, just kinda listening to the news. And all of a sudden I hear Johnny Boy's unmistakable voice taking shots at Bush (as usual). He's going on and on about this and that when the last thing he says...and I quote (kinda, I was half asleep) "a president who won't even give our soldiers the things they need, like body armor!!!"

...

If I'm not mistaken isn't this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible????

[/quote]

Comments like this demonstrate the regrettable absence of independent thought in politics these days, where folks just parrot the sound bites they hear coming out of the spin doctors. Most bills today are filled with pork, and both parties will cite a person's failure to vote for a particular bill as evidence that they oppose every single component of that bill -- it is your job as an intelligent voter to separate the wheat from the chaff. Dig deeper, dude.

Kerry did not vote against funding the war -- as I recall, when Bush asked for that $87B, there was no immediate strategy, no exit strategy, no indication of where that money was going to go, and Bush was in the midst of an unprecedented spending spree, here and abroad. Kerry voted against giving a blank check to a guy that had yet to show any fiscal responsibility. When you consider that not all of this money is being pumped into the US Military -- much of it goes to private security firms (US pays them more up front than our service men and women -- about $500 a day per soldier, but doesn't have to pay health benefits, long term benefits, etc.) and private industry (e.g., Halliburton) -- I don't think it is unreasonable to want to have some idea of where that money is going. Personally, I'd prefer that it go to the brave men and women that are serving our country rather than paying mercenaries and corporate fat cats.

Evidently, both Bush and Kerry have accused the other of not providing basic needs to our troops, citing body armor specifically. Guess what? Contrary to popular belief, body armor is not part of the standard uniform -- the people that need it, get it, but not everyone wears it as a matter of course. Perhaps they should, but using it as a political tool is as valid and standing up and saying, "Bush/Kerry has denied Carmen Miranda hats to our soldiers." It is wrong for both of these yahoos to turn it into a political issue, but hey, welcome to the wonderful world of politics.

Kerry, if I'm not mistaken, advocates sending more troops into Iraq. More than any other Democrat in recent memory, he definitely supports a strong military. Unlike W, he actually has the military chops to assist his military decision-making. Yet, because he voted against a few pork-laden bills, he's portrayed as being soft militarily. Whatever.

[url]http://www.georgewbush.com/kerrymediacenter/read.aspx?ID=2439[/url]

quite a long list of flip flopping.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion]So I'm laying on my bed, just kinda listening to the news. And all of a sudden I hear Johnny Boy's unmistakable voice taking shots at Bush (as usual). He's going on and on about this and that when the last thing he says...and I quote (kinda, I was half asleep) "a president who won't even give our soldiers the things they need, like body armor!!!"

[size=6]WHAT!!!!! [/size]

If I'm not mistaken isn't this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible????

I said flip, flop A flip, flip, flop and ya don't stop

And judging from the poll in the other forum [b]most[/b] of you want this guy to [b]RUN OUR COUNTRY AND MOST OF THE FREE WORLD!!!!!![/b]

Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

your boy bush cut the retirement and miltary pay for our soldiers. just this year

and for you to say "this man did everything in his power to cut the military in any way possible" is ignorant.

or wait kerry wants to eliminate our entire military and give the money to welfare receipents. has no backbone and cave into any enemy of the united states. now that's hilarious

[quote=Jenks]http://www.georgewbush.com/kerrymediacenter/read.aspx?ID=2439

quite a long list of flip flopping.[/quote]

Quite a bit of spin and presenting statements and positions which are not, in fact, inconsistent, as polar-opposite flip-flopping, too.

Let's assume for the sake of argument, however, that these are legitimate flip-flops. Is that really so terrible or startling? Kerry is a politician, and as such is accountable to his constituency. His job is to do the will of the people. If doing the will of the people requires that he change his position, then as a Senator, he should do so. I would prefer that the man I elect be flexible enough to conform to the wishes of the majority of the people he represents even if that changes over time. Of course, I don't want someone wishy-washy, but there is a balance there somewhere.

For example, despite the fact that a very small percentage of the country would consider themselves "born again Christians," how many times has Bush pushed that agenda because he's beholden to the religious right? This bugs me to no end.

yeah i hear ya...

THE CHRISTIANS CAN GO STRAIGHT TO HELL ....imho.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=toasty]...folks just parrot the sound bites they hear coming out of the spin doctors.[/quote]

Let me get this straight to make sure I'm following you correctly. These comments came out of Kerry's mouth. So...Kerry is his own spin doctor????

Please clarify.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion]

If I'm not mistaken isn't this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible????

[/quote]

These are the sound bites to which I refer, not Kerry saying that Bush is "a president who won't even give our soldiers the things they need, like body armor!!!"

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=toasty][quote=evangelion]

If I'm not mistaken isn't this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible????

[/quote]

These are the sound bites to which I refer, not Kerry saying that Bush is "a president who won't even give our soldiers the things they need, like body armor!!!"[/quote]

So just because they are soundbites means they are not true? Didn't Kerry himself admit that he intially voted for the $87 billion, then caved under pressure from his fellow lefties (which he would never admit, of course) and voted against it. Isn't military reduction a key philosophy of the Democratic party? Which is why there are rumors of a draft to strengthen our spread-to-thin military in the Middle East?

I'm afraid I'm still not following you.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion] So just because they are soundbites means they are not true? [/quote]

Not necessarily, but:

1. They rarely tell the whole story;
2. They suggest that you are simply regurgitating something someone else said, which, as I pointed out in my initial response, reflects the absence of independent thought in politics amoing a lot of voters today -- the "Golly, the Bush/Cheney ads said it, so it must be true" phenomenon.

[quote=evangelion]Didn't Kerry himself admit that he intially voted for the $87 billion, then caved under pressure from his fellow lefties (which he would never admit, of course) and voted against it. [/quote]

The actual quote is, "I actually voted for the $87B before I voted against it." Here's the question though -- why? Kerry is a smart guy, and this comment was made after all the "flip-flop" criticism began -- if it is truly as much of a black mark upon him as you suggest, he would not have been so flip, if you'll pardon the pun, about referring to it in this fashion -- it would be political suicide. There is something else going on under the surface that your "sound bite" doesn't address. What does he say after that, for example?

[quote=evangelion] Isn't military reduction a key philosophy of the Democratic party? [/quote]

In a word, no. Even assuming arguendo that it was in the past, it certainly isn't now. Did you catch Edward's speech this evening? Certainly doesn't seem like there are any military reductions on the horizon...

[quote=evangelion] Which is why there are rumors of a draft to strengthen our spread-to-thin military in the Middle East? [/quote]

Now, I'm not following you. To the extent that the military is spread too thin, I haven't the foggiest what the democrats, who do not control the executive branch or either house of congress, could possibly have done to have caused it. Moreover, how does a policy of military reduction result in a draft? Seriously, please explain this, because I am banging my head against a wall trying to figure it out.

If we continue on the path we're on now, that Bush started, there will be a draft regardless of what party is in office.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=toasty]...the "Golly, the Bush/Cheney ads said it, so it must be true" phenomenon.[/quote]

I'm not even talking about ads. I'm talking about quotes...straight from the mouth of the person in question. In this case...John Kerry.

[quote=evangelion] Which is why there are rumors of a draft to strengthen our spread-to-thin military in the Middle East? [/quote]

[quote=toasty]Now, I'm not following you. To the extent that the military is spread too thin, I haven't the foggiest what the democrats, who do not control the executive branch or either house of congress, could possibly have done to have caused it. Moreover, how does a policy of military reduction result in a draft? Seriously, please explain this, because I am banging my head against a wall trying to figure it out.

If we continue on the path we're on now, that Bush started, there will be a draft regardless of what party is in office.[/quote]

What I'm getting at is Clinton's monumental gutting of the military. Don't quote me on this, but didn't Clinton have the biggest military reduction of any president ever? If that doesn't happen our current military isn't having to entertain thoughts of reinstating the draft because it would be at full war strength.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion] Isn't military reduction a key philosophy of the Democratic party? [/quote] Isn't fiscal responsibility a key philosophy of the Republican Party? Times change, lessons are learned (or not) and adjustments are made...

[quote=evangelion][quote=evangelion] Which is why there are rumors of a draft to strengthen our spread-to-thin military in the Middle East? [/quote]

[quote=toasty]Now, I'm not following you. To the extent that the military is spread too thin, I haven't the foggiest what the democrats, who do not control the executive branch or either house of congress, could possibly have done to have caused it. Moreover, how does a policy of military reduction result in a draft? Seriously, please explain this, because I am banging my head against a wall trying to figure it out.

If we continue on the path we're on now, that Bush started, there will be a draft regardless of what party is in office.[/quote]

What I'm getting at is Clinton's monumental gutting of the military. Don't quote me on this, but didn't Clinton have the biggest military reduction of any president ever? If that doesn't happen our current military isn't having to entertain thoughts of reinstating the draft because it would be at full war strength.[/quote] Clinton's "gutting" of the military was a post-Cold War reorganization of the military. The military was shifted from man-powered strength to equipment-powered strength. Unfortunately, no one expected (or planned for) an all-out ground war. Hence, no one could have envisioned that our military would be spread so thin so quickly under these circumstances.

Kerry SHOULD of just said listen here, BUSH yeah what a fuck up, he got us in the mess so what I am gonna do is give the soldiers what they need to do and finish their job and then let UN finish the political side of things. While we finish up over in Iraq lets take a look at home, BUSH fucked up the taxes so you know what, lets fix that to pre-bush era...

All he needs to do is say that and I guarantee an election by a landslide...

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

I say we give both Bush and Kerry the finger, and elect someone who is actually qualified to represent our country to the rest of the world. Someone whose management skills aren't limited to propaganda, slander, and ambiguous rhetoric...but that would disqualify 99.9% of the politicians in the world. :RockOn:

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion]So I'm laying on my bed, just kinda listening to the news. And all of a sudden I hear Johnny Boy's unmistakable voice taking shots at Bush (as usual). He's going on and on about this and that when the last thing he says...and I quote (kinda, I was half asleep) "a president who won't even give our soldiers the things they need, like body armor!!!"

[size=6]WHAT!!!!! [/size]

If I'm not mistaken isn't this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible????

I said flip, flop A flip, flip, flop and ya don't stop

And judging from the poll in the other forum [b]most[/b] of you want this guy to [b]RUN OUR COUNTRY AND MOST OF THE FREE WORLD!!!!!![/b]

Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

What's hilarious is that you seem to have to mislead people in order to get your view across. Kerry voted for funding the war, but on the provision that the funding came from reducing the tax cuts to the wealthy. There you go. He wasn't against funding, but merely against funding the war from money that the US would have to borrow from other countries.

Bush put US soldiers into war without the proper equipment. If you were in the army, wouldn't you expect your Commander in Chief to ensure you have essential equipment, such as body armour? Or do you think your family should have to save up for it?

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=delirious]What's hilarious is that you seem to have to mislead people in order to get your view across. Kerry voted for funding the war, but on the provision that the funding came from reducing the tax cuts to the wealthy. There you go. He wasn't against funding, but merely against funding the war from money that the US would have to borrow from other countries.

Bush put US soldiers into war without the proper equipment. If you were in the army, wouldn't you expect your Commander in Chief to ensure you have essential equipment, such as body armour? Or do you think your family should have to save up for it?[/quote]

Oh God....you again. I knew there was something I didn't miss while I was locked out for 2 weeks.

Listen here dipshit...before you start accusing me of ANYTHING take a few things into concideration. My original statement was that Kerry accused Bush of not giving our troops the proper equipment. When he has voted against ever new weapon system and voted against the funding for the war. Period. I don't give half a shit the reason that he voted against it. Money from other countries or what the hell ever. He put that in front of trying to save our soldiers lives. Then he's going to come out and accuse Bush of not giving them what they needed? Right.

Your family and body armour statement makes no sense, so I'm not even going to touch it.

By the way...do you work????

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion][quote=toasty]...the "Golly, the Bush/Cheney ads said it, so it must be true" phenomenon.[/quote]

I'm not even talking about ads. I'm talking about quotes...straight from the mouth of the person in question. In this case...John Kerry.

[/quote]

:BangHead:

Dude.

You quoted something that Kerry said, I agree. You then followed that up with a series of sound bites that sound like they came right out of the Bush/Kerry propaganda machine. It is the latter to which my criticism is directed. I am not doubting your ability to accurately transcribe Kerry's words (at least I wasn't -- after this exchange, I'm begining to have concerns). What I challenge is your ability to step out from behind the shield of easy-to-recite one liners and have a legitimate discussion about the issues at hand. Up to this point, it has been largely fluff.

If you have actual evidence that, "this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible," that does not rely upon pointing to the failure to vote for pork-laden bills, I'd love to hear it. In fact, that is specifically what I'm requesting.

After tonight's speech, though, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that Kerry (not Clinton, not Carter, or any other Democrat before him) intends to scale back the military. What are your thoughts on that?

:BangHead:

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=toasty] :BangHead:

Dude.

You quoted something that Kerry said, I agree. You then followed that up with a series of sound bites that sound like they came right out of the Bush/Kerry propaganda machine. It is the latter to which my criticism is directed. I am not doubting your ability to accurately transcribe Kerry's words (at least I wasn't -- after this exchange, I'm begining to have concerns). What I challenge is your ability to step out from behind the shield of easy-to-recite one liners and have a legitimate discussion about the issues at hand. Up to this point, it has been largely fluff.

If you have actual evidence that, "this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible," that does not rely upon pointing to the failure to vote for pork-laden bills, I'd love to hear it. In fact, that is specifically what I'm requesting.

After tonight's speech, though, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that Kerry (not Clinton, not Carter, or any other Democrat before him) intends to scale back the military. What are your thoughts on that?

:BangHead:[/quote]

Wow...this shit's got you all riled up. Bangin' your head and shit. Chill buddy...this isn't for money or anything.

Here ya go. [url]www.boycottliberalism.com/biographies/Kerry-votes.htm[/url]

Here's another. [url]www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/cgi-bin/membervotes.cgi?&lang=&member=MAJR&site=congressmerge&address=&city=&state=&zipcode=&plusfour=&fullvotes=1][/url] Not so much on military, but notices how many "Not Votings" there are. What did Micheal Moore say about Bush..."Maybe he wished he had showed up to work more often."

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=Nekrolicious]I say we give both Bush and Kerry the finger, and elect someone who is actually qualified to represent our country to the rest of the world. Someone whose management skills aren't limited to propaganda, slander, and ambiguous rhetoric...but that would disqualify 99.9% of the politicians in the world. :RockOn:[/quote]

You know that I agree with you, but this will never happen. This is a two party system, so like I asked in the other thread, where do you stand? I know that you vote, will this election be an exception? Or will you vote for Nader? :Naughty: :lol:

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion][quote=toasty] :BangHead:

Dude.

You quoted something that Kerry said, I agree. You then followed that up with a series of sound bites that sound like they came right out of the Bush/Kerry propaganda machine. It is the latter to which my criticism is directed. I am not doubting your ability to accurately transcribe Kerry's words (at least I wasn't -- after this exchange, I'm begining to have concerns). What I challenge is your ability to step out from behind the shield of easy-to-recite one liners and have a legitimate discussion about the issues at hand. Up to this point, it has been largely fluff.

If you have actual evidence that, "this the man who voted against funding for the war, voted to cancel the M1 Abrams, and has basically tried everything in his power to reduce the military in any way possible," that does not rely upon pointing to the failure to vote for pork-laden bills, I'd love to hear it. In fact, that is specifically what I'm requesting.

After tonight's speech, though, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that Kerry (not Clinton, not Carter, or any other Democrat before him) intends to scale back the military. What are your thoughts on that?

:BangHead:[/quote]

Wow...this shit's got you all riled up. Bangin' your head and shit. Chill buddy...this isn't for money or anything.

Here ya go. [url]www.boycottliberalism.com/biographies/Kerry-votes.htm[/url]

Here's another. [url]www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/cgi-bin/membervotes.cgi?&lang=&member=MAJR&site=congressmerge&address=&city=&state=&zipcode=&plusfour=&fullvotes=1][/url] Not so much on military, but notices how many "Not Votings" there are. What did Micheal Moore say about Bush..."Maybe he wished he had showed up to work more often."[/quote]

Let me see if I've got this straight -- I ask you for something that supports your position that doesn't rely solely upon Kerry's failure to vote for pork-laden bills -- in essence, something other than a partisan sound bite -- and you direct me to a web site called [url]www.boycottliberalism.com[/url]. Wouldn't expect any spin there, eh? :roll:

And is there any spin? Well, let's see. Although the article suggests that Kerry has voted again and again and again against military measures, the thirteen instances actually only represent 3 votes, 11 of the citations refer to the same bill, and all of three votes are from 14 years ago. Further, the way the matter is presented, there is no way to tell what else is included in these bills that someone might find objectionable. Bills are more complex than simply looking at one component in a vacuum. Both sides do use this technique to try to define their opponents, however -- my point throughout this thread is that we ought to take the time to educate ourselves on what was actually going on rather than relying upon your party to spoon feed it to you.

My advice? Spend some time listening to and reading the opposition's spin. I'm obviously voting for Kerry, but I make it a point to watch Fox News, and listen to the O'Reily Factor, and yes, even Rush Limbaugh, on a regular basis, because I think it keeps me honest and aids in making intelligent decisions at the polls. Most of the time I disagree, but a little skepticism in the idea that your party necessarily knows the best for you is healthy.

As for Kerry's failure to show up for votes, I have two comments:

1. All candidates do more campaigning than substantive work. Keep your eyes on W's schedule over the next few months, and see if his productivity doesn't drop as well.
2. It is rare that a bill would be voted on today when everyone involved did not already have a good idea of how people are going to vote, and whether the measure will pass. There is not a lot of sense in returning to vote for a measure when the result is predetermined. For example, neither Kerry nor Edwards returned to DC to vote against the Gay Marriage amendment, but it was because they were advised that the measure was already going to be easily defeated, not because they were ambivalent to it. I assure you that if there are votes where Kerry and Edwards votes will matter in the upcoming months, they will be there for them.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

Round and round we go. Listen dude, I'm sure I could have Kerry himself call you and tell you he's a flip-flopper you would tell him he was spouting spin doctored sound bites. So this really is going nowhere. You got your views, I've got mine. You are obvoiusly well versered in the issues at hand. That's great, I hope it does well for you. But going back and forth, on and on about who's better, who's best is not why I come here.

I do have a couple final thoughts though.

[quote=toasty]Wouldn't expect any spin there, eh? :roll:[/quote]

Name one place there isn't. Your liberal radio. Doubt it.

[quote=toasty]Although the article suggests that Kerry has voted again and again and again against military measures, the thirteen instances actually only represent 3 votes, 11 of the citations refer to the same bill...[/quote]

Either way he still voted against them...all military related.

[quote=toasty]...and all of three votes are from 14 years ago.[/quote]

Funny...I coulda sworn we were talking about what he had done in the past.

[quote=toasty]My advice?[/quote]

Believe me man, I don't want and/or need you advice, so save it.

[quote=toasty]Keep your eyes on W's schedule over the next few months, and see if his productivity doesn't drop as well.[/quote]

We're not talking about the next few months, are we? This entire thread has been about Kerry's past (there's that word again) and track record. Of course Bush's productivity is going to drop the months before a presidential election. Kerry on the other hand has been playing hooky for many months before now. What...was deciding these bills (and doing his job) not as important to Kerry as locking up votes? Seems like it.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion][quote=toasty]My advice?[/quote]

Believe me man, I don't want and/or need you advice, so save it.

[/quote]

bit like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it Evangelion?

you offer your opinion, advice, whatever....but then in return you don't respect the opposite opinion of others? m'kay. :?

i'm a republican. so i'm sort of on your side.

but you're being a fucktard cockmonkey here.

save what?

this forum is here to express opinion, you have yours, and others have theirs.

save it? please....save coupons for 39 cent bread, everything else is fair game.

i can't stand when people take debate personal.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=Jenks][quote=evangelion][quote=toasty]My advice?[/quote]

Believe me man, I don't want and/or need you advice, so save it.

[/quote]

bit like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it Evangelion?

you offer your opinion, advice, whatever....but then in return you don't respect the opposite opinion of others? m'kay. :?

i'm a republican. so i'm sort of on your side.

but you're being a fucktard cockmonkey here.

save what?

this forum is here to express opinion, you have yours, and others have theirs.

save it? please....save coupons for 39 cent bread, everything else is fair game.

i can't stand when people take debate personal.[/quote]

There is nothing but respect. Here's an example.

[quote=evangelion]You got your views, I've got mine. You are obvoiusly well versered in the issues at hand. That's great, I hope it does well for you.[/quote]

I just see no end to this discussion. Forgive me for cutting it short. And yeah...I don't need any advice. I can develop my own opinions and views just fine. Is this the only line of the post you read. The rest of it seemed pretty valid. One line out of one post and all of a sudden I'm some disrespectful hardhead who shoots down others opinions without a second thought. Damn, tough crowd. If that is what you call "not respecting others opinions" then we have 2 different views of the world. Debating an issue is one thing, offering someone advice on how they should form what they think is another. I'm a big boy...I can figure it out on my own.

And believe me...all of this is nowhere near "taking it personal." Sorry, that's how I express things. If it rubs you the wrong way....don't read it.

Fucktard cockmonkey???? Didn't know I was worth such praise. :LoveYou:

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion][quote=delirious]What's hilarious is that you seem to have to mislead people in order to get your view across. Kerry voted for funding the war, but on the provision that the funding came from reducing the tax cuts to the wealthy. There you go. He wasn't against funding, but merely against funding the war from money that the US would have to borrow from other countries.

Bush put US soldiers into war without the proper equipment. If you were in the army, wouldn't you expect your Commander in Chief to ensure you have essential equipment, such as body armour? Or do you think your family should have to save up for it?[/quote]

Oh God....you again. I knew there was something I didn't miss while I was locked out for 2 weeks.

Listen here dipshit...before you start accusing me of ANYTHING take a few things into concideration. My original statement was that Kerry accused Bush of not giving our troops the proper equipment. When he has voted against ever new weapon system and voted against the funding for the war. Period.I don't give half a shit the reason that he voted against it. Money from other countries or what the hell ever.[/quote]

Let me get this right... if the bill legalised gay marriage or something you're against, you'd vote for it regardless?

[quote=evangelion]He put that in front of trying to save our soldiers lives. Then he's going to come out and accuse Bush of not giving them what they needed? Right. [/quote]

He knew the bill was going to be passed anyway so his vote was a statement that he thought the bill could've been better.

[quote=evangelion]Your family and body armour statement makes no sense, so I'm not even going to touch it.[/quote]

[quote][b]Because there isn?t enough body armor for all soldiers fighting the war on terrorism, some families are buying the expensive armor at their own expense. Rep. John Larson, D-Conn., introduced legislation, H.R. 3615, to reimburse Armed Forces members and their families for that cost.[/b]

At a recent town hall meeting, Larson heard the story of a mother who used her own money to buy a Kevlar vest for her son. Pene Palifka of East Hartford, Conn., bought a vest for her son, Bill, of the 248th Engineer Company, which is currently serving in Iraq.

Congress appropriated funding for ceramic Interceptor body armor in April but as of late October, an estimated 44,000 troops still did not have it.

The Department of Defense has indicated that all troops will have the new body armor by the end of December.

Last month Rep. Ted Strickland, D-Ohio, called for congressional hearings into why the military went to war when there was a shortage of body armor.

Interceptor body armor has been credited with saving at least 29 lives in the war in Afghanistan. It consists of a Kevlar vest with removable ceramic inserts that can stop rounds from an AK-47 assault rifle. Strickland said in November that 40 percent of soldiers in Iraq still lacked this protection.

?This administration owes the American people?especially the families of soldiers?an explanation as to why it failed to properly equip our troops,? he said.

[b]In a letter to House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., Strickland and 102 other House members said mothers and fathers of men and women in the service are purchasing ceramic plates for these Interceptor vests and sending them to their sons and daughters in Iraq.[/b]

Soldiers who have neither the jackets nor the inserts?but rather Vietnam-era flak jackets?are having ceramic inserts sent to them and they are using duct tape to attach them to the backs of their flak jackets, the letter said.[/quote] [url]http://www.fendonline.com/families/2003/FF121803.htm[/url]

[quote=evangelion]By the way...do you work????[/quote]

I've answered that before. Yes, I do.... from Monday to Friday in a hectic and very technically challenging industry.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion][Fucktard cockmonkey???? Didn't know I was worth such praise. :LoveYou:[/quote]

yeah, i honestly don't even know what it means. :NotMe:

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=Jenks][quote=evangelion][Fucktard cockmonkey???? Didn't know I was worth such praise. :LoveYou:[/quote]

yeah, i honestly don't even know what it means. :NotMe:[/quote]

What it means is that the poster has run out of ideas and therefore has to call people names to avoid a meaningful, productive and intelligent debate.

or it could just mean, fucktard cockmonkey.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

ok, slightly back on topic here...

What is going to piss me right of Loyd, is if Kerry wins this election, (which it's looking more in his favor as the weeks go by,) a few years down the road when the middle east is further down the road to reform, when terrorism is further down the road to defeat, Kerry is going to take credit for all of it, when in reality, it is the hard stance the Bush administration has taken with terrorism and the middle east right now that will lead to progress in the future. But in typical democrat fashion, they'll take credit for all of it, like they invented the internet and their policy created the economic boom of the Clinton years. :roll:

all hypothetical, of course...but that's how the dems operate.

Part of me says, "I don't give a fuck who gets credit for any of it, as long as the world is a better place." The other part of me says, "Great, 4 years of big-upping the democratic party and the hollywood elite with their self importance."

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=delirious]Let me get this right... if the bill legalised gay marriage or something you're against, you'd vote for it regardless?[/quote]

I fail to see the correlation between gay marriage and trying to prevent a troop from getting a bullet through his heart. So your saying Kerry is against preventing that.

[quote=delirious][quote=Jenks][quote=evangelion]Fucktard cockmonkey???? Didn't know I was worth such praise. :LoveYou:[/quote]

yeah, i honestly don't even know what it means. :NotMe:[/quote]

What it means is that the poster has run out of ideas and therefore has to call people names to avoid a meaningful, productive and intelligent debate.[/quote]

Ya know what...if you took the time to read the posts, instead of seeing who it is doing the talking and typing something that makes that person look bad just as fast as your little fingers can type, you would have noticed that we weren't debating anything. He was responding to a comment I made...that's it. You try to act so self-righteous and mature it ends up being comical.

[quote=delirious][quote=evangelion]By the way...do you work????[/quote]

I've answered that before. Yes, I do.... from Monday to Friday in a hectic and very technically challenging industry.[/quote]

Damn...when are you gonna learn. I could ask you that question twice a month from now until the end of time and you would responded to it everytime.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

What's hilarious to me is Kerry talking about being militarily tough. When have Democrats ever been tough militarily? Let's be honest here, the Democratic party is generally thought of in this country as a wimpy party. Plus, Democrats usually treat the military like shit. That's why most military personnel alway vote Republican.

I guess the 50 references to his time in the boat in Vietnam every hour proves that he can be tough on terrorism. Nice of him to use those ex-Vietnam vets to further his political cause. Also, nice to put his daughters and wife up there to talk about how great he is.

I can't wait to see what political crap the Republicans are going to come up with in September. Hope the twins and Laura are brushing up on their speech skills.

Re:: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion]This entire thread has been about Kerry's past (there's that word again) and track record.[/quote]

Actually, I think we've been talking about two different things -- you've been talking about Kerry v. Bush substantively, I've been talking about the inherent fallacy and danger in following blind ideology.

For the record:

Politicians flip flop. Kerry, Bush, all of them. I don't happen to think that what you pointed out really qualifies as such, but there are definitely legitimate instances of Kerry flip-flopping out there. There certainly aren't near as many legitimate flip-flops out there as the GOP suggests, but they are out there. Bush & Cheney do it, too, though -- Kerry does not have a monopoly on inconsistency in the political arena.

My critique is directed to parroting sound bites. I don't care if you're democrat, republican, whatever...

[quote=evangelion]You got your views, I've got mine.[/quote]

Agreed. I just enjoy debate. I enjoy it more when the person I'm debating with is actually debating the same thing I am, but I enjoy it regardless.

No hard feelings. Catch ya later, bro.

Here are a couple of flip-flops for you from the Bush side:

Bush initially rejected the idea of a 9/11 Commission and now accepts their existence and the report the filed.

Bush has always been very anti-embryonic stem-cell research and is now a supporter of it.

Re: Johnny Boy does it again.....

[quote=evangelion][quote=delirious]Let me get this right... if the bill legalised gay marriage or something you're against, you'd vote for it regardless?[/quote]

I fail to see the correlation between gay marriage and trying to prevent a troop from getting a bullet through his heart. So your saying Kerry is against preventing that.

[/quote]

You said "I don't give half a shit the reason that he voted against it."

Maybe John Kerry voted against that version of the bill because it would further destabilise the ecomony. He cared what the bill said.

[quote=evangelion][quote=delirious][quote=Jenks][quote=evangelion]Fucktard cockmonkey???? Didn't know I was worth such praise. :LoveYou:[/quote]

yeah, i honestly don't even know what it means. :NotMe:[/quote]

What it means is that the poster has run out of ideas and therefore has to call people names to avoid a meaningful, productive and intelligent debate.[/quote]

Ya know what...if you took the time to read the posts, instead of seeing who it is doing the talking and typing something that makes that person look bad just as fast as your little fingers can type, you would have noticed that we weren't debating anything. He was responding to a comment I made...that's it. You try to act so self-righteous and mature it ends up being comical. [/quote]

Sorry, I didn't read his post properly before replying. My mistake

[quote=evangelion][quote=delirious][quote=evangelion]By the way...do you work????[/quote]

I've answered that before. Yes, I do.... from Monday to Friday in a hectic and very technically challenging industry.[/quote]

Damn...when are you gonna learn. I could ask you that question twice a month from now until the end of time and you would responded to it everytime.[/quote]

Why keep asking the same question over and over? LOL