On 17th December Hos you wrote:

[quote=Hos] The president of Iran is not a warmonger. He is not at war with anyone. He definitely likes to stoke fires though and is doing so with gusto. But even neutral Israeli reports aren't surprised by the comments coming from Tehran. There is a great deal of bitterness that Iran is being dissuaded to build nuclear facilities for alleged peaceful purposes, having signed the NPT, whereas Israel have hordes of nuclear weapons and constantly flaunt International Law.[/quote]

I replied on 18th December: [quote=davetlv]

You're rights he's not a warmonger, he's either an idiot or he has the best spin doctors working for him. Whilst his tirade against Israel is not surprising his shift to complete holocaust denial is an affront to every human on this planet. The fact that he seems to be alligning himself with such discredited historians as David Irving and Ernst Zundel just proves his complete and utter stupidity.

As far as the NPT goes, if Iran no longer want to be held accountable to the confines of the NPT then they can leave its framework, like I believe Pakistan did a nuber of years ago. Whilst however they are signed upto it then there is absolutly no reason that one of the oil richest countries on this planets need to look at nuclear technology for fuel, and lets say that their ambitions are peaceful, then it should be done under the supervision of the IAEA. See what i mean?

Instead of accusing Israel of flaunting International law maybe you would like to give examples of where they are doing so? Are they flaunting international law by not being a signatory to the NPT? No they are not. What else were you thinking of? And please, subtle warning, you had better quote chapter and verse on your claims because dude i will counter ever spurious allegation you are making here, so as the old addage goes, put up or shut up. I get sick and tired of people blindly making accusation about my country and never backing them up.

And just a note of caution, if you are going to quote UN resolutions make sure you know which chapter the resolution falls under, and what the penalty for ignoring them are, cos Hos, i know them all. So bring it on [/quote]

Now that more than a week has passed I was wondering whether your baseless allegations about Israel flaunting international law can be substantiated or were you just talking nonsense?

Bring on the debate :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

Hos, i'm disappointed to say the least, i would have expected after your previous allegations that you could back them up with some evidence.

Obviously you can't. Does this mean you retract your earlier accusations?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

So how's the weather in Israel at the moment?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

Warm but wet thanks

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

So when are Israel and Palestine going to stop fighting?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=ZendoBro]So when are Israel and Palestine going to stop fighting?[/quote]

Also, when are ([U]insert middle east country here[/U]) and ([U]insert other middle east country[/U]) going to stop fighting as well?

Answer: when cool, crisp and clean icewater is available in hell.......

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=geoffgulley]Also, when are ([U]insert middle east country here[/U]) and ([U]insert other middle east country[/U]) going to stop fighting as well?

Answer: when cool, crisp and clean icewater is available in hell.......[/quote]

Touche!

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

how about that wall and the parts of it in the OT?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[URL="http://www.halturnershow.com/LegacyOfArielSharon.html"]http://www.halturnershow.com/LegacyOfArielSharon.html[/URL]

i dont even know what to say about this one.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless][URL="http://www.halturnershow.com/LegacyOfArielSharon.html"]http://www.halturnershow.com/LegacyOfArielSharon.html[/URL]

i dont even know what to say about this one.[/quote]

Ah yes, the Hal Turner show. . . . some interesting pictures there sightless - I especially like the ones of Muhamed Al Durah (labelled A Palestinian father and son caught in a cross fire) - have a look at this link sightless and watch how that whole scenario was fabricated.

[url]http://www.seconddraft.org/[/url]

The question that remains is how many others have been fabricated?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

What happened to Muhammed el Durah and his son wasnt fabricated we ve all seen it live on all the international TVs, it was pure hatresse by the Isreali soldiers.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=Bululu]What happened to Muhammed el Durah and his son wasnt fabricated we ve all seen it live on all the international TVs, it was pure hatresse by the Isreali soldiers.[/quote]

Really. . . did you watch the film on the site provided. How 'real' was the 'murder' of Muhammed Al Durah?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=Hos]how about that wall and the parts of it in the OT?[/quote]

Calling it a wall, as you well should know, is disengineous. In way over 75% it is nothing more than barbed wire fencing.

Whilst I disagree with the route of the wall, the wall is necessary up until the day our two people can live side by side.

Now where again is Israel flouting international law - might i remind you that the judgement by the world court re the fence is an advisor opinion and not a legally binding one. So again, where are we flouting international law?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4589270.stm[/url]

Fucking Robertson should get a good spanking IMO. :spank:

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[QUOTE=thesightless][URL="http://www.halturnershow.com/LegacyOfArielSharon.html"]http://www.halturnershow.com/LegacyOfArielSharon.html[/URL]

i dont even know what to say about this one.[/QUOTE]

Access to this web page is restricted at this time.

Reason:

The Websense category "Racism and Hate" is filtered.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

Turner is a dumb fuck. I looked at the pics and the comments, and I seriously could NOT believe that someone calling himself a journalist would display such a bias. Unbelieveable.

The rhetorics in there are too cheesy to accept for anyone with a brain, yet he seems to think that that page is an example of some good and sound journalism. It's a disgrace. First of all, i want the credits that go with each pic, as well as location, time, and an objective scene description. Furthermore, the guy is from the black&white family again: displays his own favourite side, ignores the other one completely. Moreover, refuses to take a step back and take a look at the complete picture and give arguments from both sides. He also struck me as the type that in the end know little to nothing about the underlying causes of the situation, someone that Dave would have no trouble with at all making a complete idiot of.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

Oh Yao i'm blushing!

And Hos, forgive me, but I'm still waiting for either proof of your claim or a retraction of your comment. You might ask why do i keep coming back to this, simple, for far too long people with NO or LITTLE knowledge of the situation pass off fiction for fact with the simple aim of hoping that no one will challenge them on their fiction.

And then there was me! So i'm still waiting. I'll be happy either way - either defend your position with facts or retract. Its that simple!

Unless of course you are ignoring the very nature of this thread on the grounds that your position is not held up by any authority other than the President of Iran! :roll:!

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

Whoops double post!!!!!

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

can we just settle on this statement.

the actions of both governments and hamas are completly fucked up. and it is doubtful a muslim civilization will ever stop anti jew rhetoric in the middle east and it is up to the entire world to help defend the right of jew and christians to exist in the middle east as well.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless]can we just settle on this statement.

the actions of both governments and hamas are completly fucked up. and it is doubtful a muslim civilization will ever stop anti jew rhetoric in the middle east and it is up to the entire world to help defend the right of jew and christians to exist in the middle east as well.[/quote]

Whilst i might agree with your above statement, that not the issue of the thread, or the reason why i made my original challenge.

Hos made a clear statement that Israel is flaunting international law, a statement regularly made by people against Israel and yet rarely proved. I just want Hos to either prove his comments or retract his statement - simple no!

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

umm to play devils advocate and i do not know the technicalities of the law.

isreal does launch millitary strikes on a neighboring country, sometimes killing innocents, and it goes beyond what the USA is currently doing with unproven suspects, it kills them rather than trying them. also, it has too much to say about palestinian politics sometimes. im not against isreal, im all for it and the actions taken, but the letter of the law is a lot different than justice.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless]umm to play devils advocate and i do not know the technicalities of the law.[/quote] Ok, well i'm no lawyer either, much to my dear departed mothers annoyance! :evil:

[quote=thesightless]isreal does launch millitary strikes on a neighboring country, sometimes killing innocents, and it goes beyond what the USA is currently doing with unproven suspects, it kills them rather than trying them.[/quote] Sorry dude, you must have had a really heavy weekend - you have no idea what you are talking about.

What country does Israel strike? And seriously before you do something so stupid as to say Palestine, don't! Palestinians had the opportunity of having their own country in 1947, 1967 and again in 2000 (the 2000 deal also included East Jerusalem), and they have rejected it each and every time. There was no Palestine when Jordan occupied the West Bank in 1948 and there was no Palestine when Israel occupied the same territory in 1967.

If Israel had behaved anywhere near how the Americans are behaving in Iraq your death toll of Palestinians would have been near to hundred of thousands. Did you know that last year (2005) more Palestinians died at the hand of Palestinians than died at the hands of the IDF!

Israeli prisions are full of Palestinians - if Israel, as your stupidly say, kill them rather then try them, there would be more than 5000 extra deaths.

[quote=thesightless] also, it has too much to say about palestinian politics sometimes. im not against isreal, im all for it and the actions taken, but the letter of the law is a lot different than justice.[/quote] Justice would entail both people living peacefuly next door to each other, and yet at every opportunity the Palestinians keep reverting to terror and murder instead of accepting a Palestinian state.

But thats by the by, if we wish to revert back to law, which is how this thread was started, i'm still waiting for proof that Israel is flaunting it!!!!

As the old saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!:roll: :roll: :roll:

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

again, difference in POV.

some textbooks show this map.

[IMG]http://www.middleeastfacts.com/images/pal-e-s.jpg[/IMG]

and what do you think happens when they launch airstrikes in Gaza? they aiming at empty hills? also, we have an isalnd full of detainees called guantanamo bay, remember that one? an arrest is a lot different than a missle launch.

again. im not disagreeing, i back what isreal does, the western world along with the respect and agreement of russian and asian nations created isreal, those who disagreed have every right not to. like any decision ever made, you dont need to agree with it.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

if i claim my neighbors property as mine, and create my own governtment there, have a few friends backing me, does my neighbor now have to accept that the state of thesightless is there? even if others back me.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless]if i claim my neighbors property as mine, and create my own governtment there, have a few friends backing me, does my neighbor now have to accept that the state of thesightless is there? even if others back me.[/quote]

Thats what the British and French did, for the arab clans, when they carved up this region after the demise of the Ottoman Empire.

22 arab countries, 99.9% of the middle east is arab, arab dictators and quasi 'demicratically' elected autocrats control the natural resources and yet they still want to eradicate Israel.

BTW loved the map - now on to gaza. Here again is where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Dude, when Hamas, Jihad, al-aqsa et all build their bomb making factories in schools, in the grounds of hospital, in apartment block - don't go blaming Israel if innocent people die.

I repeat, if Israel had behaved in the way the americans are behaving in Iraq there would be NO palestinians left in the occupied territories. Its a tribute to the IDF and Israelis in general who dont approve of whole sale indiscriminate murder of innocent.

Another useful statistic1.5 million arabs have Israeli nationality, have rights to vote in elections, own property, go abroad and are treated exactly the same as non arab Israelis. Meanwhile billions of dollars which have poured in to the PA coffers since Oslo, which was meant to be used for developing infrastructure, hospitals, education, have been either out right stolen or been used to still fund the families of homicide bombers. Go figure!

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

i agree with you, but it still doesnt make it right in everyone's eyes, thats what i have been trying to say. thats where i think the root of this is. there are plenty of cases where people claim evidence that isreal has broken the rule of law, and cases where pro-isreali people show evidence to the contrary.

i still think it will never end, for 50 years now it hasnt worked, no matter what happens a lot of people will be pissed off, you cant create another isreal and move the jewish faith somewhere, you cant create a region for the palestinian peoples and obviously they cant live together. i dunno, never claimed to , never will. for me, its a dead end no matter which way you turn, cuz the violence wont stop until one of the parties gets out, and neither ever will.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless]i agree with you, but it still doesnt make it right in everyone's eyes, thats what i have been trying to say. thats where i think the root of this is. there are plenty of cases where people claim evidence that isreal has broken the rule of law, and cases where pro-isreali people show evidence to the contrary.[/quote]

I disagree, the root of this is the hypocracy by many in the west and muslim world that only see Israel as the aggresor. This war has been going on since the murder of jews by arabs in Hebron in the 1920's.

International law is meant to be there to ensure that both Israelis and Palestinians don't eradicate each other, and yet whilst 50+ countries continually condemn Israel in the UN for safeguarding its citizens, not once has that bastion of International law passed resolutions against the indiscriminate mass murder of Israeli civillians, in our own country, by murdering thugs with bombs strapped onto their bodies.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[QUOTE=davetlv]Whilst i might agree with your above statement, that not the issue of the thread, or the reason why i made my original challenge.

Hos made a clear statement that Israel is flaunting international law, a statement regularly made by people against Israel and yet rarely proved. I just want Hos to either prove his comments or retract his statement - simple no![/QUOTE]

what can I do, they cover their asses. :NotMe:

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=Hos]what can I do, they cover their asses. :NotMe:[/quote]

Hos, I dont know whether you are being flippant or not, but your comment just proves that you know fuck all about the situation here.

The fact that you cant prove your earlier allegations speaks volumes. Maybe you should stick to subjects you know something about in future :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

242. it's all in the interpretation. the UN fucked up.

your view is obviously firmly on the opposite side to mine, as you vehemently deny that Israel is breaking any international law.

yawn. can i go now. cheers. bye.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

outside of the h man above.

the un cannot act on the acts of indivuals that bomb people, much like they couldnt act on mohammed atta, i dont think it is the politicians on the region openly ordering the bombers. that is where i personally see the line. isreal uses the military, a rogue group uses suicide bombers.

the only thing they can do through thier constitution is scold hamas or do something they have never done and go in on an offensive to eliminate hamas military wing.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=Hos]242. it's all in the interpretation. the UN fucked up.

your view is obviously firmly on the opposite side to mine, as you vehemently deny that Israel is breaking any international law.

yawn. can i go now. cheers. bye.[/quote]

No Hos, its not all in the interpretation - its in the law.

Heres an example. . . .

[I]Two chapters of the UN Charter clarify the powers of the UN Security Council and its resolutions. Resolutions adopted under Chapter VI of the UN Charter - that deals with "Pacific Resolution of Disputes" - are implemented through a process of negotiation, conciliation, or arbitration between the parties to a dispute. UN Security Council Resolution 242 from November 1967 is a Chapter VI resolution which, when taken together with Resolution 338, leads to an Israeli withdrawal from territories (not all the territories) that Israel entered in the 1967 Six-Day War, by means of a negotiated settlement between Israel and its Arab neighbors. The resolution is not self-enforced by Israel alone; it requires a negotiating process.

The most severe resolutions of the UN Security Council are those specifically adopted under Chapter VII of the UN Charter - that deal with "Threats to Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Aggression." When Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, the UN Security Council adopted all its resolutions against Iraq under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. The implementation of those resolutions was not contingent on Iraqi-Kuwaiti negotiations, for Iraq engaged in a clear-cut act of aggression. Moreover, UN resolutions on Iraq are self-enforcing, requiring Iraq alone to comply with their terms. However, the UN recognized, under Article 42 of the UN Charter, the need for special military measures to be taken if a Chapter VII resolution is ignored by an aggressor.[/I]

So now that we are clear on the difference between resolutions at the UN, lets actually look at that 242 you are quoting. . .

[I]The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

    [B]Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

    Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;[/B]

Affirms further the necessity

    For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

    For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

    For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

[/I]

Lets look a tthe section i have put into bold - both section equally important.

Whilst it is clear that Israel has not withdrawn from territories occupied in 1967 the Palestinians and other arab nations have not held up their part of the resolution either.

Now, lets look at it another way, Israel has proved 3 times (Sinai, Lebanon and Gaza) that it is prepared to leave territories it has occupied. Not only that, but he withdrawals can happen reletively quickly. Therefore we have proved time and time again that peace and returning land is the only way for survival. However, what have the other countries in the region done to implement 242.

I like the way you accuse Israel of not living up to it obligations under 242, but you say nothing about all the other countries in the region who are jointly obligated.

BTW you have still not managed to prove your earlier comments!

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless] the un cannot act on the acts of indivuals that bomb people, much like they couldnt act on mohammed atta, i dont think it is the politicians on the region openly ordering the bombers. that is where i personally see the line. isreal uses the military, a rogue group uses suicide bombers. [/quote]

But its not rogue groups sighless, its Hamas (soon to be the second largest party in the PA), its Al-aqsa brigade (the military wing of Fatah - the dominant party in the PA). So your claims of it being rogue groups is crap.

Added to the fact that Syria, Iran, Saudi and in the past Iraq pays for the families of homicide bombers for the rest of their lives, proves you are wrong. Neigbouring states are directly to blame for the continuation of homicide bombers.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

god ur thick. and as far as the comment about the schools being houses for bombs and it being too bad, wow. thats fucked. killing children isnt cool unless they are the ones holding the gun IMHO>

it was a mistake the whoel damn scenario over there and the tit for tat shit that goes on.

from our end, i think its a shame we had to put our noses into the Area just to secure a fuel source

and if it is a out and out political party, then why hasnt isreal just cut the head off the snake and bombed thier main HQ and all associated people/buildings.

i just want the US to get the hell outta the region in all aspects and let it be

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

im not trying to antogonize , just looking for info.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

and if you use this quopte

[QUOTE][B][I]Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;[/I][/B] [/QUOTE]

then that also means any country that has been bombed, found to be a target of future bombings, now has the right to attack whatever country they deem a threat. so here comes WW3.

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[quote=thesightless]and if you use this quopte

then that also means any country that has been bombed, found to be a target of future bombings, now has the right to attack whatever country they deem a threat. so here comes WW3.[/quote] Not my quote - it UNSC Res 242 which brought to end the Six day war - its also one of the key resolutions used against Israel whilst ignoring the fact that ALL nations in the area who were involved with the attacks on Israel in June 67 should be held accountable to.

My point sightless being that israel is always attacked for not carrying out 242 whilst no one else is. The resolution was meant to bring to an end a war started by Egypt, Jordan et all and ALL parties should be held accountable to it, not just one, and i guess this is where Hos and i differ, i blame everyone, he blames Israel. Go figure!

BTW, i never claimed i was cleaver!!!! :roll:

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

when i go look around for work on the situation, i try to do a case and a case against style. i.e. when looking at the israeli / palestinian conflict i try to look at works who support both sides. this one raised an eyebrow. really only because it spoke of the US directly comparing it to your region. go out and look for some anti israeli sentiments then take a sec to try and disect where they come from.

peace !

[QUOTE] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Finally, I think states could also intervene in the conflict on the grounds that the Israelis are committing acts of state terrorisms and harboring terrorists. When the US went into Afghanistan, the US claimed it was self-defense. But the US also said it was combating terrorism. It was trying to take action against a state that it claimed supported terrorism and harbored terrorists. International humanitarian law defines terrorism as a calculated intent to terrorize the population. The Israelis are arguably terrorizing the Palestinian population. If that is the case, then the government is carrying out an act of terrorism, perhaps to a greater extent than the Afghan government was. Unless the Israelis are punishing the people who are carrying this out, then they are also harboring people who have committed acts of terrorism. If we apply the standards we applied to Afghanistan, I would say that the United States is trying to create international law that allows states to use force against states that harbor terrorists and Israel fits into that category. That would mean that states could use force against Israel to prevent its terrorism and to punish it for harboring terrorists. Any state using force, of course, would have to abide by international humanitarian law, which stresses proportionality and the discriminatory nature of targeting. [/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

Has anyone even dared to pay attention to the fact that the Israeli attacks are always primarily aimed at identified terrorists, nut just random suspects? And that they are retaliatory in nature rather than unprovoked?

Re: Attn Hos: Is Israel flaunting International Law?

[QUOTE=davetlv]Not my quote - it UNSC Res 242 which brought to end the Six day war - its also one of the key resolutions used against Israel whilst ignoring the fact that ALL nations in the area who were involved with the attacks on Israel in June 67 should be held accountable to.

My point sightless being that israel is always attacked for not carrying out 242 whilst no one else is. The resolution was meant to bring to an end a war started by Egypt, Jordan et all and ALL parties should be held accountable to it, not just one, and i guess this is where Hos and i differ, i blame everyone, he blames Israel. Go figure!

BTW, i never claimed i was cleaver!!!! :roll:[/QUOTE]

i don't recall giving my opinion on the palestinians, syrians, labanese or egyptians. you asked me why i accused Israel of flaunting international law. nothing to do with blame. so don't put words in my mouth. ta.