1. regarding israel and palestine. why does the world ignore the fact that for every bomb a palestinian sets off, israel sends is airstrike teams and now that palestine has said they will not uphold the ceasefire, why is no one concerned that they are basically admitting that they are about to start serious fighting again. does no one want to help the region. we never see any talks about this any more, but just scoldings by the UN and simple talks while they fight back and forth.

2. regarding iran. how in the world is no one stepping up to the new president. he has already called for the destruction of israel 4 times, calling for people to kill jews and furthermore, is building more nuclear facilities against all UN sanctions and warnings. are they waiting until they are built and have made a bomb to act? will they step in only after iran draws into more war? out of anyone in the world right now, that guy is the one i fear most. north korea seems to be more about talk than anything, but this guy is pure evil, if anything the closest thing to hitler since hitler. he is calling for hte murder of an entire religious peoples and the destruction of a nation in an already spiraling area.

any thoughts of your on the area. (not on my thoughts, on the 2 situations)

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

yea, iran is the real deal, no one is stepping up because i dont think anyone can afford to step up, all the e.u. will do is slap sanctions and all the u.s. will do is slap their hand. It takes $$$$ to actually do something about irans nuke ambitions and the u.s. is currently so far in debt its not even funny. Iran beleives they have the right to have nuclear weapons and i dont see them giving up this pursuit any time soon. Will be interesting to see how things unfold.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I ll just say what I think about the problem of Isreal and the arab world, I am a muslim and from an arab origin , I have very close jew friends , even an Isreali couple who are very adorable ,and I say this to them when we discuss politics, the problem was created at the begining of the 1948 when the western countries decided that they would forgive themselves on not helping the jews through the holocost, so what to do give them a country and whats better than Plaetine since arabs at that time were mostly still colonised giving the example of north Africa , or still riding camels and living in tents like the case of Saudi Arabia and the gulf countries, I know that no one can take Isreal away from where it is now , but at least give the palestinians a chance to live.

PS: I know that jews were there 4000 years ago , but at least that Isreal is a country now , and the jews suffered from all the descrimination through history, it should be a very good lesson to learn from it and not let the palestinians live the way they are living now if I can call that living.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=Bululu]I know that no one can take Isreal away from where it is now [/quote]

dosnt mean a certain someone isnt trying :lol: [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4510922.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4510922.stm[/URL]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

It takes more than words anonin , trust he is just a bitch , words words and words , he wouldn t even dare , this is just a political game in Iran since he comes from the hard line in the Iraian politics , so from time to time he has to come up with these stupid comments to show his people that e is still a hard liner.

But to come to a solution this problem has to be solved , Isreal should really make the Palestinian feel that life has a meaning and not let them live in poverty behind huge walls like animals .

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

yeah the modern idea of the middle east vs the world is based on 1947 and the accord. but to be fair, the palestinian population throughout history commited atocirites that only the americans did and the germans did in terms of forcing people from their land and destoying a civilization. personally i would love to see the holy lands become unfied under the 3 religions and serve as a vatican style area where there is no formal government intervention but allows the 3 major churches to actively make the region a better place. dont forget that the christian religions hold a s much ties to the area as islam and hebrew. they have just stepped away to avoid conflict and the popular idea of christianty being centered in rome lead to a complacency within those areas.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

1. Regarding Israel, I know that Cond Rice has been there recently trying to get an accord between the Isarelis and Palenstenians. However, I don't think we'll see peace between the Israelis and Palestenians. There's too much animosity and bad history between them to be worked out.

2. Regarding Iran, the current president is a puppet of the Mulllahs. And I think the Iranian theocracy realizes the American public and the rest of the world doesn't have an appetite for another war. And the UN has no real power in the world. That said, Iran will push things as far as the world will let them which seems pretty far at this point.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=thesightless]1. regarding israel and palestine. why does the world ignore the fact that for every bomb a palestinian sets off, israel sends is airstrike teams and now that palestine has said they will not uphold the ceasefire, why is no one concerned that they are basically admitting that they are about to start serious fighting again. does no one want to help the region. we never see any talks about this any more, but just scoldings by the UN and simple talks while they fight back and forth.[/quote] Some good questions here. . .

Whilst i believe that there are many people on this planet who genuinely care about the plight of the Palestinians, i also believe that the world has had enough of the continous aggression my people face whilst sitting in cafes, bars, shoping in supermarkets, etc.

Whilst we acted unilaterally with regards to the disengagement, even Ariel Sharon realises that a withdrawal from the West Bank can not be achieved in the same way. Furthermore, whilst both sides can justifiably be accused of not implementing the group of four's road map, at least Israel has gone some way. Meanwhile, most of the world realise that the main responsibility of the PA in the road map was to dis-arm its terrorist groups - not only has this not been done, but, Islamic Jihad ended the ceasfire a while ago, whilst Hamas are now saying they will end theirs at the end of the year. It should be noted here, that the Al-aqsa Brigade, a paramiltary group closely associated with the ruling Fatah party, broke their ceasefire ages ago.

So to answer your question - does no one want to help the region - i think the answer is that people want to, but there is only so much they can do. I also believe that many people outside of the region have just started to understand that before anymore moves towards peace, the Palestinians need themselves to decide what they actually want. With Fatah calling for 1967 boarders and Hamas calling for the total destruction of Israel, no serious moves can be achieved.

[quote=thesightless]2. regarding iran. how in the world is no one stepping up to the new president. he has already called for the destruction of israel 4 times, calling for people to kill jews and furthermore, is building more nuclear facilities against all UN sanctions and warnings. are they waiting until they are built and have made a bomb to act? will they step in only after iran draws into more war? out of anyone in the world right now, that guy is the one i fear most. north korea seems to be more about talk than anything, but this guy is pure evil, if anything the closest thing to hitler since hitler. he is calling for hte murder of an entire religious peoples and the destruction of a nation in an already spiraling area.

any thoughts of your on the area. (not on my thoughts, on the 2 situations)[/quote] I love the way people are pontificating over Iran. Lets see the evidence for a moment.

They are signatory to NPT, therefore they are meant to have all their facilities open to inspection by our latest Noble Peace Prize holders (ha ha ha), they are refusing, just like Iraq did 2000. They have called for the destruction of a fellow member of the UN, something which is against the UN charter, they have called for the forced relocation of 5.5 Million Israelis to Europe and still the world does nothing.

I believe that the west here is trying a new tactic, by sticking their collective heads up their own asses, they are waiting for Israel to take out Iran's nuclear facilities (remember Iraq in 1981 - thank god for those Israelis hey!)

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

we need to stop meddleing in affrias that dont concern us . Stope wasting time beleving us media propaganda

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=thesightless]1. regarding israel and palestine. why does the world ignore the fact that for every bomb a palestinian sets off, israel sends is airstrike teams and now that palestine has said they will not uphold the ceasefire, why is no one concerned that they are basically admitting that they are about to start serious fighting again. does no one want to help the region. we never see any talks about this any more, but just scoldings by the UN and simple talks while they fight back and forth.

2. regarding iran. how in the world is no one stepping up to the new president. he has already called for the destruction of israel 4 times, calling for people to kill jews and furthermore, is building more nuclear facilities against all UN sanctions and warnings. are they waiting until they are built and have made a bomb to act? will they step in only after iran draws into more war? out of anyone in the world right now, that guy is the one i fear most. north korea seems to be more about talk than anything, but this guy is pure evil, if anything the closest thing to hitler since hitler. he is calling for hte murder of an entire religious peoples and the destruction of a nation in an already spiraling area.

any thoughts of your on the area. (not on my thoughts, on the 2 situations)[/quote]

1. Israel is in control of everything in respect to Israel and it's occupied lands. They have the power, money and backing of the super powers of the world. The Israeli government are the only ones who are really able to bring about peace and security if they want to and so far have been reluctant in doing so.

One must remember it is the Palestinians who are under occupation and not the other way round and anyone under occupation should and has the right to resist. Before I get jumped I will say this, "I do not support the attacks on Israeli civilians nor do I support the oppression and attacks on the Palestinian civilians either". I believe the two can live together or if need be side by side or in seperate states peacefully. The past has proven this is possible, but a real effort needs to be made by leaders and policy makers from both sides, but moreso the Israeli side for obvious reasons.

2. As stated before Iran's leader is just beating his chest and letting his people and neighbours know that he is a tough guy and not scared of Israel and the US. This may or may not work in his favour, all depends on who you ask or which side your on.

Iran has the right just like many other nations to develop it's own fuel and not have to be reliant on other nations promising to deliver it to them. Being held hostage like this is not good for a nation.

Gross hypocracy seems to be the big problem with both issues discussed.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Very very well said sir , I am also against the actions against civilians , but in the other hand what do you expect from someone who s only dream is to live like a human being, no education , no future and ont even a land , and living inside a cage like an animal ?????

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=Bululu]^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Very very well said sir , I am also against the actions against civilians , but in the other hand what do you expect from someone who s only dream is to live like a human being, no education , no future and ont even a land , and living inside a cage like an animal ?????[/quote] Living inside a cage like an animal. . . . interesting phrasiology there.

What many people forget is that the UN orginially set up refugee camps after 1948 when the Jordanians and Egyptians occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In more than 50 years, nearly 60, the UN and its chicken shit agency UNWRA have done nothing for genuine Palestinians except keep them in perpetual poverty and ignorance.

Israel did not create the refugee problem and whilst some of our actions have been wrong, please remember that prior to 94 and the return of terrorist number 1 to the territories the Palestinians had many more freedoms then they have now living under the PA. Funny how that turned out!

A previous discussion on the UN was held - might be a useful read [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134"]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134[/URL]

Israel did not start this latest round, in fact has done everything in power to bring it to an end (remember the withdrawal from Gaza), but whilst Israel moves towards peaceful co-existance many Palestinians, egged on by the likes of Hamas and that moron in Iran, still refuse to recognise Israels right to exist. How do you negotiate with someone who believes you have no right to life?

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=davetlv] How do you negotiate with someone who believes you have no right to life?[/quote]

It's not about who started what, we could go on about this forever, it's about how we move foward.

In the past it was said that Mr Arafat who was the stumbling block on the path to peace. He's not around anymore so who's the problem now? Mr Abbas? I don't think so.

If the leaders of Israel really want peace with the Palestinians then now is the time to do it. The withdrawl from Gaza was a step foward but when two steps are taken back then nothing has been achieved at all.

Israel needs to do this not just for the Palestinians but most importantly for herself. This is not the way that Israelis want their country to be projected throughtout the eyes of the world.

( Your statement quoted above is a little ironic don't you think?)

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Yes living inside a cage ,arent you with me on that ??? if not let me give you some facts , Gaza is the most populated peace of land in the world , you cant leave this territory due to border closing by the Isreali army ,which means no business and no work and no travelling even for the lucky ones who get the chance to work in Isreal , A beautiful big wall that sperates you from the rest of the world which is built to protect Isreal against suicide attacks . remember what happened last week in Natanya , these are not the steps to be taken Dave , leaving Gaza was good but what after .??

I think the old generation palestinians and Isrealis hate each other , why dont we work on the new generations ??? I find this the only solution, teach them to coexcist amd to understand each other , Isreal has the power on this matter , it and only it can change this problem , arent you with me on that Dave ???

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I agree mostly with Dave I gotta say...we've had extensive discussions about this, and so far he has always come up with very consistent and well-balanced opinions on this matter.

I'm a little out of this topic, but to me it looks like Israel has indeed made a few moves that definitely mark it's commitment to creating a more peaceful situation: when a few groups unilaterally end the cease-fire, you can hardly hold it against the Israelians, not? Yes, the Palestinians have a right to live in a free country, and the wall is still debatable, but on the other hand: it keeps a lot of people safe, and until such time that groups like Al-Aqsa brigades and Hamas do not seems to be willing to revert to the path of dialogue, I think that wall should stand. Period.

Arafat is dead, and everything was supposed to be better now, but it isn't: so where are the Palestinians peaceful intentions now? Stupid Ahmadinejad with his remarks might even give some the idea that they will be backed up in their fight. Until now I was also in the middle about Iran, but his stance combined with their aspirations for nucleat technology are making me fear that indeed Iran should not be allowed to develop any knowledge on it. I'm against giving a gun to a warmonger.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=dig72]It's not about who started what, we could go on about this forever, it's about how we move foward. [/quote]

Agreed

[quote=dig72]In the past it was said that Mr Arafat who was the stumbling block on the path to peace. He's not around anymore so who's the problem now? Mr Abbas? I don't think so.[/quote]

Whilst Arafat was clearly a stumbling block in the process, he was not the sole problem. I repeat what I said earlier, when organisations like Hamas, who incidentally are on course to take something like 45% of the vote in the election scheduled for January, claim that my country has NO right to exist, what are we to do?

[quote=dig72]If the leaders of Israel really want peace with the Palestinians then now is the time to do it. The withdrawl from Gaza was a step foward but when two steps are taken back then nothing has been achieved at all.[/quote]

Why is it always for Israel to do it?

Untter nonsense. Whilst we were pulling out of Gaza Abbas should have been disarming its terrorist organisations. He failed to do that, as is stated in the road map. Israel has shown on more than one occasion what it is prepared to do for peace, isn't it about time the Palestinians start doing the same? The basic demand on them by the quartet is that they disarm Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al-aqsa brigade. Let them start that process before Israel does any thing else.

[quote=dig72]( Your statement quoted above is a little ironic don't you think?)[/quote]

Not really. :roll:

[quote=Bululu]Yes living inside a cage ,arent you with me on that ???[/quote]

No i'm not with you on that, please do explain :lol:

[quote=Bululu]if not let me give you some facts , [/quote]

Please do

[quote=Bululu]Gaza is the most populated peace of land in the world , you cant leave this territory due to border closing by the Isreali army ,which means no business and no work and no travelling even for the lucky ones who get the chance to work in Isreal , A beautiful big wall that sperates you from the rest of the world which is built to protect Isreal against suicide attacks . remember what happened last week in Natanya , these are not the steps to be taken Dave , leaving Gaza was good but what after .??[/quote]

Your paragraph is a bit confused, or you are. You seem to be combining both Gaza and the West Bank into one generalisation here. Let me try and explain it to you.

Gaza first. Israel withdrew in September. Last month crossing between Gaza and Egypt opened after assurances made to the quartet and Israel that no one on Israels wanted list would be allowed to enter Gaza. Egypt and PA in control of border. Lo and behold, what do you know, day after boarder with Egypt opened wanted terrorist appear on front pages of Palestinian papers photographed in Gaza, where they are NOT meant to be.

With that in mind, you expect Israel to open its own boarders to the Gazans? Israel, like every nation state, has a right to determine who enters and leaves their country. As for the sad wails about no work in Gaza, and Gazans want to come into Israel to work, big fucking deal.

If the PA had not squandered billions then maybe Gaza might not be such a hell hole - think about what $100 million alone could do for Gazans, in terms of building their economy. Instead where did that money go, except to Arafats personal accounts and for paying the families of homicide bombers. As for Gazans wanting work in Israel, well, gee, lets see, seeing as their fucking intifada caused a near collapse of the Israeli economy, and unemployment is high, why should we let foreign nationals into work?

The West Bank - Personally if i was in charge i would pul out tomorrow, but i'm not. We had to do something to protect our people, so we built, in most parts, a temporary structure. This structure did not follow the so called green line. The incidents of attacks in Isreali cities has more or less fallen into single digits for this year, and considering three years before we started on the wall we were hitting nearly triple digits, i think the wall is working just fine thanks.

[quote=Bululu]I think the old generation palestinians and Isrealis hate each other , why dont we work on the new generations ??? I find this the only solution, teach them to coexcist amd to understand each other , Isreal has the power on this matter , it and only it can change this problem , arent you with me on that Dave ???[/quote]

Sorry no i'm not with you, i believe your assessment is actually wrong.

I disagree that the elder generation hate each other, I actually think its the elder generations who should be paving the way towards peace. Most of the the elder generations are not, or have not, been involved with terrorism.

What power do you think Israel has? You might have read the other day about a football match in Barcelona between Barcelona (at least i think it was them) and an Israeli/Palestinian joint peace team. The event was organised by the Peres Peace Centre. In the news here a few days after the event we read the the Palestinian FA will be punishing the Palestinian players who took part in the game. So, how much can Israel do?

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

umm, the anal part of needs to correct something.

the 3 most populated areas in the world by ppl per square foot are

bombay india, hong kong, lefrak city in Queens NY

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

To dave,

So you want things to stay the way they are ??? and when I was saying open the borders , I ment the port, te airport that was destroysed , Isreal is unfair with the palestinians, after 50 years of colonising they leave a small peace of land and they say thats a big step forward to peace , a joke for me.

PS: my mestake about Gaza being the most populated city but its among the most crowded , and I am sure of it .

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Don't forget that the Jews are not new to the area Bululu....they used to co-exist with the Arabians in that area...

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=Bululu]To dave,

So you want things to stay the way they are ??? and when I was saying open the borders , I ment the port, te airport that was destroysed , Isreal is unfair with the palestinians, after 50 years of colonising they leave a small peace of land and they say thats a big step forward to peace , a joke for me.

PS: my mestake about Gaza being the most populated city but its among the most crowded , and I am sure of it .[/quote]

I never said i wanted things to stay the same, far from it.

However if this is truely a process, where both parts are equal, lets see something from the Palestinians for a change except pointless posturing.

The fact that you see Israelis as colonisers is interesting. Who did we actually colonise?

Mark Twain, in Innocents Abroad wrote, describing the Palestine he saw during his travels in 1867,

[quote=MarkTwain]

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362) [/quote]

The are plenty of other examples of the state of Palestine under Ottoman rule in the late 1800's which clearly show a next to empty land, controlled by absent landlords and without any real permanant residents. A hand full of biblical cities had clusters of Jews and around Jaffa, Haifa and parts of the Galil there were arabs.

A desolate land with pockets of inhabitants, Jewish, Christian and Muslim.

My dear bululu, there are two sides to every story, maybe you should check them out.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Yao I already mentioned that I have no problem with any religon or race , some of my closest friends are jews so yes the jews have the right to live there , what I am trying to say is that Isreal has the upper hand, and violence will bring violence , so dont just blame it on palestinians, they are the ones loosing on this story.

Dave I know our debate well take long and long and long , we are not the first ones to talk about it and we wont be the last to , and in this special case , jews and arabs every side will claim that they are right and the other is wrong , hope one day this case will be solved once and for all but I have no faith to see it , tensions will always be there .

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=davetlv] Whilst Arafat was clearly a stumbling block in the process, he was not the sole problem. I repeat what I said earlier, when organisations like Hamas, who incidentally are on course to take something like 45% of the vote in the election scheduled for January, claim that my country has NO right to exist, what are we to do?

Why is it always for Israel to do it?

Untter nonsense. Whilst we were pulling out of Gaza Abbas should have been disarming its terrorist organisations. He failed to do that, as is stated in the road map. Israel has shown on more than one occasion what it is prepared to do for peace, isn't it about time the Palestinians start doing the same? The basic demand on them by the quartet is that they disarm Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al-aqsa brigade. Let them start that process before Israel does any thing else. [/quote]

Every Palestinian leader that's chosen is always mocked and shown very little respect by the Israeli leaders. Instead of supporting them they are ridiculed. How will anyone vote for leaders who are treated as jokes and never taken seriously?

I believe the reason why Hamas has so much support is because, many Palestinians feel that if it weren't for the armed resistance, life for them would be alot worse off. To me this just demonstrates the hopelessness felt by many Palestinians. They believe like the most of us that, talk and only talk will ever get you so far.

Why are for Israel to do it? Because they are in control and have much to gain.

You talk about the road map as if the Israeli government is committed to it.. Civilian deaths, road blocks, curfews, ease of constriction of movement, oppression and humiliation, are not the normal way of life for anyone let alone the Palestinians. We could go on and on but nothing will be achieved unless a real effort is put in by both sides and I don't use the words 'real effort' loosly either.

You say let Palestinians start the peace process, when in fact both should be.

They will blame each other for ever and it still won't change a thing. Action and a real committment are what we need right now.

The two can live together peacefully and have done so for many years.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to point out what has already stated and that is, there's two sides to every coin.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=dig72]Every Palestinian leader that's chosen is always mocked and shown very little respect by the Israeli leaders. Instead of supporting them they are ridiculed. How will anyone vote for leaders who are treated as jokes and never taken seriously? [/quote]

Please, again utter nonsense. How far do you think any Palestinian leader will get if they are supported by Israel? To prove that they are not an israeli stooge the must be friction between the twon leaders,

[quote=dig72]I believe the reason why Hamas has so much support is because, many Palestinians feel that if it weren't for the armed resistance, life for them would be alot worse off. To me this just demonstrates the hopelessness felt by many Palestinians. They believe like the most of us that, talk and only talk will ever get you so far.[/quote]

Actually most of Hamas's support comes because of their programme of health care, education and other social services, whilst the PA squander money on Palestinians, Hamas puts money and resources into the Palestinian society.

Talk as much as you frigging want, whilst you talk we disengage. Whilst you talk Hamas and Islamic Jihad re-arm themselves. Israel has ALWAYS be ready to talk, but instead of talking the Palestinians seem happier to continue this viscious cycle of murder. The PA have yet to begin the process of dis-armingl, whilst Israel disengages. Enough is enough, the Palestinians SHOULD be forced to come back to the table, but ONLY once we can see them clamping down on their terror orgs.

[quote=dig72]Why are for Israel to do it? Because they are in control and have much to gain. [/quote]

Dude, it takes two. Two. Not one, but two. This is meant to be a process where both parties need to act. Time for the PA to start acting no?

[quote=dig72]You talk about the road map as if the Israeli government is committed to it.. Civilian deaths, road blocks, curfews, ease of constriction of movement, oppression and humiliation, are not the normal way of life for anyone let alone the Palestinians. We could go on and on but nothing will be achieved unless a real effort is put in by both sides and I don't use the words 'real effort' loosly either.[/quote]

Israel is commited to the road map. Whats your point? Stop bombing our cafes, clubs, shopping malls, buses. Stop shelling our southern towns. Start arresting terrorist - then, and only then, will the West Bank be able to return to the freedom they had prior to 94/95. Come to the table with serious negotiations and we'll leave. Its that fucking simple.

[quote=dig72]You say let Palestinians start the peace process, when in fact both should be. [/quote]

No, I'm saying that the PA show they are serious about peace and start to dia-arm the murdering bastards, then come back to the table where we have been waiting for months.

[quote=dig72]They will blame each other for ever and it still won't change a thing. Action and a real committment are what we need right now.[/quote]

I believe that the disengagement shows Israel iscommitted to peace - lets see those arms now please!

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

damn this thread really took off in terms of context without a reall bitch slap arguement. congrats.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Without much to say, I have to agree with Dave, and back up Yao in his previous post at the end of page 1. I'm not Israeli or Jewish. But I see one side trying to make peace, and one side sabotaging peace.

Israel continues to make efforts, over and over, and over again. They are bombed and they retaliate, but that hardly makes up for the families who have lost loved ones in Israel. It is always up to Israel to make the changes, make the difference. That just isn't right, or fair, to a people who are constantly attacked by those who could care less about life.

Israel built the wall to be safer, and it is working. Good job for Israel. If the peoples of the Gaza strip don't like their situation, they should stand up against their own, and stop the attackers coming from their own side. But they want do that, they will only sit back and pretend they know nothing, out of fear.

I'm sorry but I'm sick of this state of fear that the radical side made over the whole Middle East. Look at Syria, media people killed because they voiced opinion.

Fear. That is what is holding back the people of the Gaza strip. When they stand up in mass and stop their own, something will start to change. The masses could easily overtake the radicals if only they would organize and take a stand.

If they did this, the wall one day would come down!

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=davetlv]Please, again utter nonsense. How far do you think any Palestinian leader will get if they are supported by Israel? To prove that they are not an israeli stooge the must be friction between the twon leaders,

Actually most of Hamas's support comes because of their programme of health care, education and other social services, whilst the PA squander money on Palestinians, Hamas puts money and resources into the Palestinian society.

Talk as much as you frigging want, whilst you talk we disengage. Whilst you talk Hamas and Islamic Jihad re-arm themselves. Israel has ALWAYS be ready to talk, but instead of talking the Palestinians seem happier to continue this viscious cycle of murder. The PA have yet to begin the process of dis-armingl, whilst Israel disengages. Enough is enough, the Palestinians SHOULD be forced to come back to the table, but ONLY once we can see them clamping down on their terror orgs.

Dude, it takes two. Two. Not one, but two. This is meant to be a process where both parties need to act. Time for the PA to start acting no?

Israel is commited to the road map. Whats your point? Stop bombing our cafes, clubs, shopping malls, buses. Stop shelling our southern towns. Start arresting terrorist - then, and only then, will the West Bank be able to return to the freedom they had prior to 94/95. Come to the table with serious negotiations and we'll leave. Its that fucking simple.

No, I'm saying that the PA show they are serious about peace and start to dia-arm the murdering bastards, then come back to the table where we have been waiting for months.

I believe that the disengagement shows Israel iscommitted to peace - lets see those arms now please![/quote]

You need to calm down mate. We're trying to have a civil discussion whilst expressing opinions. No need to jump on me because you disagree with what I've said.

I'm not the enemy mate.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I can hardly say that Dave was really attacking you dude, he prolly never will get very personal, I know him al too well for that...

@ Bululu: I wasn't implying that you were in any way being intolerant, just pointing out that you forgot a little part of history ;)

@Rob: Good post...I agree with your last paragraph too.

Dave was right about the PA vs the 'civil organisations' like Hamas: the PA has been looking too much after it's own (financial) interests, thereby forfaiting the support from the Palestinians, while the so much despised Hamas et al have made a commitment to binding the people to their cause: I have no idea how well the new PA is doing with the Palesitian people at the moment, but they'd better shape up if they are to be taken seriously.

I am a little suspicious about the coïncidencae of the new hardline Iranian president and the Hamas and Islamic Jihad unilaterally ending the ceasefire: might it have something to do with a renewed push for battle by certain financers?

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=Yao]I can hardly say that Dave was really attacking you dude, he prolly never will get very personal, I know him al too well for that... [/quote]

It's a very passionate issue for many, but I think you can also understand where I'm coming from.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Sure bro, and a good discussion should always be held on the edge ;) I've kknow Dave for a while now, and I sincerely think he has a pretty balanced opinion about this: hey may strike you as being very pro-Israel now, but he sure won't hesitate to kick is own govt's ass if need be....lol

What other people have with the death of Elvis or JFK, I have with the death of Yitzak Rabin: I still know exactly where i was and what i was doing: sitting home ate the couch with my mother watching the news, and when they announced Rabin was dead, I looked at my mom and said: "now it's gonna be war again for a long time there, and it will be extremely hard to get the process back on track". I was 15 at the time.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

First off Dig72 if you think i'm attacking you then please accept my appologies, that was not my intent. You, like me, are entitled to your own opinions.

My point was a simple, but clearly convoluted. You (the West) seem to think that Israel should make all the efforts for peace whilst the PA does nothing. I disagree - i believe that BOTH sides need to make painful concessions to bring these past 58 years to an end. Those of us on the left here are bracing ourselves for our own internal struggle to withdraw from the West Bank, but even we realise that after Gaza we need to see some sign from the PA that they are also serious about peace.

The framework created by Oslo is now dead. The road map is going the same way. Barak's offer to Aratwat back in 2000 would have given the Palestinians almost everything they demanded, including East Jerusalem. Every move towards peace that Israel agrees on/takes is thrown back in its face by an unresponsive PA.

So if i'm getting a little bit 'heated' here its because it amazes me how the west can still blame Israel for the empass in the peace process whilst ignoring the PA and their role.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

The only time that I belived the Isreali government really wanted peace was on Yitzhak Rabbin was still alive , Clinton played a big role also in that process (thats why I love that guy) but since then not a single moment belived in the intentions of the Isreali government in wanting real peace.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

My point on all this is that Isreal has to be seen to be protecting itself to save face for it's own ppl and also to let the PA know it is not weak . America got attacked once on it's own soil and carpet bombed an entire country . Almost all the world was with them when they invaded Afgahnistan and half the world supported them when they invaded Iraq . I couldn't tell the Isreali goverment how to resolve the situation so i can't critisize them for having no viable plan for peace either . Isreal has enough military power to wipe out Palestine / Iran and Syria yet it dosn't . If those three countries just mentioned had the power to wipe out Isreal they would . During the English troubles with the I.R.A. we never resorted to the tactics the Isreali's did but then again the I.R.A. never blew up school buses packed with children .

Just my take on things

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Doesn t the Isreali army kill children too , and yes school children ??? children playing football ??? so just dont put all the blame on the palestinians .

PS: and regarding who was with th US when they decided to invade Iraq ??? half of the world ??? i would like to invite to take a look at what they called the coallition , a joke more than half of the countries 90% of the Americans wouldnt know that they exist.

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

from a country that bankrolled hitlers persecution of the jews and is still to this day withholding money from decendants of death camp victims . I think you should take a look at your own countries international policy . Also on your international/banking policy you have billions of dollars of dictators monies that could of saved the lives of millions of starving children in those said counties . Don't go getting all sanctomonious about how others conduct their affairs when u live in a country which has supported ( financialy ) some of the worst scum ever to walk this planet

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

methinks Bululu is not Swiss born...

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=Bululu]Doesn t the Isreali army kill children too , and yes school children ??? children playing football ??? so just dont put all the blame on the palestinians .

PS: and regarding who was with th US when they decided to invade Iraq ??? half of the world ??? i would like to invite to take a look at what they called the coallition , a joke more than half of the countries 90% of the Americans wouldnt know that they exist.[/quote] Unfortunately yes, but they don't go out of their way intentionally to kill anyone, unlike those fuckers that strap bombs onto their bodies and detonate them in shoping centres, on buses etc.

Bululu no one is putting blame on one side or another - I personally blame both sides. You however seem to think that Israel = bad guys, whilst Palestinians = good guys. Your assesment is all wrong and actually does nothing to help the peace process. Think about for a moment or three.

I'm away now till sunday, so catch you all then for the continuation. :twisted::twisted::twisted:

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

if you dont have tanks and high powered guns..dont you have to go out of your way to get revenge? thats why they have to strap..c'mon its common sense. give them tanks etc and lets see if they would rather strap themselfs.

put yourself in their situation. now if i was a palestinian, i would be pisssssed! if i was a Isralian , damn i be kicking back and be drinking my beer! and you want the palestinian to do some kind of peace..like how can you explain? i dont think they have the power to do so...i think the one with the power should do something about it..they have the POWER to do so do they not? power is only used for war? Im just your average joe but when i see something wrong i can spot it right away...i have that skill..im crazy like that! lmao..:)

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

No Dave , I ve never thought that Isrealis = Bad , and Palestinians= Good , no way I ever thought that, I am the kind of person that when i see something good I mention it and the same with bad things :), this is why I said earlier since Rabbin died I lost faith and hope in peace , Rabin was honest and when he wanted peace he followed by real actions and by commitment.

PS: what my country policies , try to read the posts before commenting , I vbe never said that I am Swiss , and for your information living some where doesnt mean u r born there .

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Srry but i read through the posts and the only reference to where you live is under your name on the left . So I'm obviously an idiot for presuming you are from Switzerland ..

I don't think the Israel Palestine situation will ever be resolved , it can only intensify and worsen . Multicultural societies tend to function perfectly well but bi-cultural have always meant war . Look through history and no country that had a population divided in two has ever functioned happily . Also the growing population of Israel doesn't have much space to grow into . Another thing that will only make the situation deteriorate is the fact that the Jewish half has control of all aspects of power (political/wealth /military and technology ) . The Palestinian population is growing allot faster than the Jewish and when Israel gets to a population of around 30/70 with Palestinian majority all hell will really break loose . Srry to be so pessimistic about this situation but if peace ever is achieved it will only be fleeting

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[quote=davetlv]Unfortunately yes, but they don't go out of their way intentionally to kill anyone, unlike those fuckers that strap bombs onto their bodies and detonate them in shoping centres, on buses etc.

Bululu no one is putting blame on one side or another - I personally blame both sides. You however seem to think that Israel = bad guys, whilst Palestinians = good guys. Your assesment is all wrong and actually does nothing to help the peace process. Think about for a moment or three.

I'm away now till sunday, so catch you all then for the continuation. :twisted::twisted::twisted:[/quote]

I don't think the Israelis ever set bombs in stuffed animals on the beach waiting for children to pick them up and get arms blown off, as Arafat's crew did some time back.

Casualties are a part of war. Israel is reacting to the attacks, not initiating them as the Pal. do on an ongoing basis. Provacation generates a reaction. If Pals are hurt in the processs, then maybe they should stop the provoking/attacks.