[url]www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1552921,00.html[/url]

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

Nice link man, sharply written story. Although sometimes the man goes a bit offbeat by including the shooting of that Brazilian guy at Stockwell IMO, he simply fit the decrirption and was stupid enough to behave extremely suspicious in a time when everyone is on the edge.

I think most people who've read some of my comments here know that i'm studying Africa's politics and development, so most of this was already know to me anyway. Did a test on the UN security council today, hope I passed it!

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

i emailed that author and asked him where i could mail the bat and the dead horse. I am now going to try to sue the northern african nations for when the moors raided italy. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

:CrackUp:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=thesightless]i emailed that author and asked him where i could mail the bat and the dead horse. I am now going to try to sue the northern african nations for when the moors raided italy. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:[/quote]

:CrackUp:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

what? :shock: :Middlefi:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

i blame englands urge to colonise the world from the 15th century onwards on us bing invaded in 1066 by the normans .. so it isn't our fault it's the french . btw the french blame it on the romans invading them .. i think the italians blame it on the dinosaurs. and the dinosaurs blame it on the primedial soup ... i think the primedial soup blames it on a passing comet

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

Don't forget the Netherlands (who do you think your country bought those fortresses on the gold coast from??), France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal and Germany. Then there's the Arabs that raided the Eastern side of the African continent, selling the slaves to Asians (too bad the author forgot to mention that...seems pretty important to me).

I have something to state here, react as you please: [list][b] the continued spread and imposition of the Christian and Muslim religions in Africa have been, and still are, major brakes on the development of large regions in Africa.[/b][/list]

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=Yao]Don't forget the Netherlands (who do you think your country bought those fortresses on the gold coast from??), France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal and Germany. Then there's the Arabs that raided the Eastern side of the African continent, selling the slaves to Asians (too bad the author forgot to mention that...seems pretty important to me).

I have something to state here, react as you please: [list][b] the continued spread and imposition of the Christian and Muslim religions in Africa have been, and still are, major brakes on the development of large regions in Africa.[/b][/list][/quote]

also and lets get this right africans tribes were always killing other african tribes then the english came along and said don't kill ure neighbour capture him and we'll pay u with guns and goods .. not saying we were moraly right by any means ( because we encouraged wars in order to get slaves and better equiped them to carry out these wars ) but most slaves were captured by africans and sold by africans and they were lucky to be sold for otherwise they would of been killed . and i have said this in another topic because this guy who wrote the artical prob sympaphises with muslims too . slavery = bad/evil only community slavery still persists is within islam for it states every female be it wife or daughter is the property of a man .. a person bing someone elses property is a slave.

and i totaly agree with u on religion hindering the progression of african societies . i despise religion although i admire some of the morals it teaches but because people desiring power use it as a tool .and the catholic church is still one of the worst causes of the continuing spread of aids and hunger in africa whilst it continues to denounce the use of contraception . a few million condoms could save a few million lives but rome says u'll go to hell for using them

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

...........

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

i'm sick of hearing about slavery.. $50 billlion they should be able to get off there feet now..

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=Adriel-Levi]Re: Catholics

yeah i know some nice Catholics but AS A WHOLE, what's up with their priest's and SMALL BOYS :lol:[/quote]

Don't worry there's only one on the board thats cool, that I know of any way. asdf - the rest of them don't matter, you can offend them and get away with it. :lol:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

Dayum @ [b]smastard[/b], that was spot on. Good to see someone with some historical insight on Africa ;-). Small correction tho: Africans themselves also held POW's as slaves if they didn't kill them. Slavery was not new to Africa, we just canalized and commercialized it....

@ [b]Runningman[/b]: I've never accused you of making the effort to think a little deeper on a subject. Will not do it this time either. It's not the money, it's the policies, the conditions, the insincere way of the West offering help. We have still gotten richer of that 'help' and 'aid' we've offered those countries.

If you'd care to read a little, just a little on development aid and the way it was conducted mate, you'd never ever have made that remark. You'd be kicking your own ass for it. Tie a boot to the wall and run into it.

@ adriel-Levi: Guess that's what you get when denying natural urges.... :D No matter what any book or clerc may say, we're humans and we need to either stick our prick into another human being or receive it from one :Naughty:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

double post. Damn server.

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=Yao]Dayum @ [b]smastard[/b], that was spot on. Good to see someone with some historical insight on Africa ;-). Small correction tho: Africans themselves also held POW's as slaves if they didn't kill them. Slavery was not new to Africa, we just canalized and commercialized it....

@ [b]Runningman[/b]: I've never accused you of making the effort to think a little deeper on a subject. Will not do it this time either. It's not the money, it's the policies, the conditions, the insincere way of the West offering help. We have still gotten richer of that 'help' and 'aid' we've offered those countries.

If you'd care to read a little, just a little on development aid and the way it was conducted mate, you'd never ever have made that remark. You'd be kicking your own ass for it. Tie a boot to the wall and run into it.

@ adriel-Levi: Guess that's what you get when denying natural urges.... :D No matter what any book or clerc may say, we're humans and we need to either stick our prick into another human being or receive it from one :Naughty:[/quote]

yao it always comes down to money. I'm not saying that we just handed $50 bil over and we aren't going to see a return on it. That is the way the world works. It is unfortunate but those are the rules of the world. Its not like the west has the resources to help the whole world. The west can only help them get on there feet so they will stop shooting each other. Africa is practically a write-off as far as rules againsst humanity. What the real question is why aren't the RICH african-americans (as they like to call themselves) like oprah and all of the high paid sports players coming together to fix there "motherland". I believe those are the real people to blame.

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=runningman] yao it always comes down to money. I'm not saying that we just handed $50 bil over and we aren't going to see a return on it. That is the way the world works. It is unfortunate but those are the rules of the world. Its not like the west has the resources to help the whole world. The west can only help them get on there feet so they will stop shooting each other. Africa is practically a write-off as far as rules againsst humanity. What the real question is why aren't the RICH african-americans (as they like to call themselves) like oprah and all of the high paid sports players coming together to fix there "motherland". I believe those are the real people to blame.[/quote]

[img]http://www.skanksuary.com/board/images/smiles/thud.gif[/img]

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

One of the other things that piss me off about the way we get preached to about africa by celebs is the fact they don't go putting their futures into the hands of africans .. they give it all out about sending aid and and give money to this and that . but the only way a country prospers is by working and earning it's own money i bet Bono dosn't record any albums there or prints any records or files his tax returns or keeps his money in their banks . trade generates money for countries not live aid or live 8 . charity helps animals and children that cannot generate their own incomes . free food passed into the hands of warlords only serves to suppress the people they intend to help . the biggest problem i have with the way the west does deal with these situations is how either the U.N. uses trade sanctions and embargos that further criples the massess or america runs in with troops or england starts civil wars .. why the fuck can't bush just send a guided missle into a few dictators homes ( when they know they are home ) and assasinate those who are in the wrong . media and people are far too squeamish about these things and they allways use the old addage of creating a martyre .. what from people who never actualy liked him , idoubt it . there are probably loads of holes in my proposition to sort this matter i know but drop a bomb directly on the heads of 3 dictators and see if it changes the way other assholes who are in charge of countries go about running their couintry . id'e rather kill one dictator 20 body gaurds 30 troops and couple of members of his family than 20,000 soldiers who only signed up to feed their families

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

been chatting with yao about this in PM;s and this is the region where the worlds armies belong. kinda like the point made in HERO the jet li movie. we might actually need to forcefully unite them under one banner if its only to streamline thier economies and get civil/capital improvements going on a massive scale.

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

that could work sightless .. but i thought we was only stocking animals in zoos for when we nuke the place :goodevil: me bad

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=bart_smastard]One of the other things that piss me off about the way we get preached to about africa by celebs [/quote]

I hate getting preached at by celebs PERIOD. I don't care what any celeb thinks about politics, society, global affairs, etc. They don't live real lives, and they can FK OFF!!

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=bart_smastard]but the only way a country prospers is by working and earning it's own money.[/quote]

This is the most important thing of all you said Bart...Runningman, don't focus on celebs dude: all their money can only make a small difference (except if it's Billy Gatez of course) and who are we to tell them to give their money? It's about the way the money is spent, and the conditions attached to it. Kwame Nkrumah from Ghana called it Neo-Colonialism, and though it certainly is not the only reason for Africa still staying behind (Africa itself is to blame as well of course), Europe and the US have made sure that the money they 'gave' to Africa came back, and then some.

Tariff walls, brain drain, 'fake' investment have done more damage than good for trade with Africa. To explain the last: a western factory builds a factory there under the guise of cheap production and creating more labour possibilities, while in fact all high positions are taken by expats (who usually don't even care to mingle with the locals and only buy...imported western goods). Only the simpler functions can be taken by locals, which means the positive effects for the local economy are very limited. And where does the money of the sold products go? Right...to the mothercompany in the West.

Something different are the conditions attached to the loans African countries received: they had to restructure their governments according to IMF and Worldbank views, which usually meant cutting expenses on health care and education, less government influence and a more open market, and devaluation of their currencies.

Resulting in: people not being able to pay for education (and thus an increase of illiteracy), people dying of diseases unnecessarily, high mortality rates among infants, a wider social gap between the 'elite' and common man. The measures managed to tear a lot of economies into pieces, simply because the African markets and producers could not afford the expensive Western technologies and could not compete with the Western markets: in combination with the tariff walls, this actually crippled the economies. Adding up to that the devaluated currencies and sky-high inflation, African countries increasingly faced problems even buying products from outside Africa.

Combine this with weak governments (when a country goes to shit, it happens often that a government loses legitimacy) and the fact that in Africa other groups were able to compete with governments for power of people and resources, and you have a perfect mix for chaos and collapsing states. And here's a little inside knowledge for ya:

the SAPS (structural adjustment programmes) also focused on the Agricultural sector: farmers were to become the backbone of the economy, producing for export and producing on bigger scale. For this, a big part of the aid was set aside: modernizing production methods, enlarging scale, increasing production. Sounds nice, right?

Wrong.

Unlike Western society, African society is still very much influenced by traditional ruling systems: even now, traditional leadership co-exists with official government. This meant that land-reform was really hard to achieve in the first place, because in African traditional society land is one of the most important things one can have, use or treat. Land is passed on within families, and on that land the ancestors are buried as well. They simply will not co-operate with land reforms: you don't give away the land your family held for decades, and on which you buried your ancestors.

Then also, when the state tried to get a grip of the farmers, that proved virtually impossible. Farming co-operatives were brought into existence that would dispatch their people to help farmers adopt new production methods on the one hand, and on the other hand would buy their products at fixed rates, so the state could control the export of agricultural products and thus get the revenues for that. So strangely enough, in the agricultural sector state influence had to be increased to achieve the goals the SAPS had set.

But African farmers have always been known to escape government control, and they CAN do that: simply stop producing for the market and go to self-supporting production. This is called the Exit-Option among scholars, and when the market proved not as profitable as it had seemed, and the government could not even pay bottom prices anymore due to the economical recession in the 70's and 80's, farmers took that exit option on a massive scale, basically crippling the potentially biggest economical push factor.

Duderz, this is just a glimpse of the factors contributing to the economical deterioration that has taken place since decolonisation, and in the recent past the IMF and the Worldbank have had to admid they had not assessed the situation right. I know that about every decade they changed policies, I should have something about it written out somewhere: will look it up and post a summary here A.S.A.P.

Anyway, the newest kid on the block is NEPAD, which is mostly a political plan, but with extensions to economical reform. Evolving from the African Reneissance, a thought inspired by Thabo Mbeki from South-Africa. It basically calls upon Africans to become a bit more proud of their heritage, and becoming more self conscious: Africans should start managing themselves better, should solve their problems theirselves and show the world that they CAN do it right. The NEPAD forum has also been arguing for the cancellation of debts to give African economies a fresh start, in combination with abolishment of the high trade tariff walls. African states themselves should point out where they need to invest foreign aid to improve the situation, and the west should provide the fundings for that.

My thesis will probably focus on the political legitimact of this whole NEPAD thing...

Okay this was a fucking long story and I don't wanna check if it's coherent enough now, heheheh....just ask any questions you want and I'll try to answer them. I have enough books to look shit up, but this has all been written straight from what I remember ;-)

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

Damn, 3 posts while I wrote that, hehhe....

Sightless, the last thing Africa needs is a military intervention mate. How about stimulating economical 'hotspots' in regions to set an example for the rest? That is basically my idea when looking on a continental scale. You can't help the whole continent at the same time, that's impossible. But aming your arrows on those spots with great potential for stability and development may strengthen the ongoing economical and political processes there: not only violence can spread, but democracy and economical development too. Maybe it's time to apply the same mechanisms we see appearing in a negative way, in a positive way! When one country has a strong economy, it will automatically drag other countries with it: trade will increase, production will increase, economy will grow.

This should be combined with a 'reward' system for stable and democratic governments (I can look up and post the current description of 'good governance').

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

Question for you Yao...

What are you gonna do when you've finished studying? Sounds like you could contribute a lot to the world.

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

A thought just occurred to me oppression and exploitation no matter how unsavory they may appear are none the less a necessary part of any organic system. This is how we develop from nuclear to macro. Get comfortable with it and get off the soap box.

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

[quote=Neil Hamburger]A thought just occurred to me oppression and exploitation no matter how unsavory they may appear are none the less a necessary part of any organic system. This is how we develop from nuclear to macro. Get comfortable with it and get off the soap box.[/quote]

:roll:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

:evil:

Re: For those who like to have a go at Africa

Are you stuck in 2005:?: