[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4744385.stm[/url]

this will not help the region at all if it passes. they must veto the bill or they are taking a serious step back in the world view. if this passes, i feel that we (the ""western nations"") just need to distance ourselves from the area in all aspects. including foreign aid, trade, military, relations, etc, etc, etc. obviously the (the people of the region) dont want to progress into the outside world, and us forcing ourselves down thier throats will not work. maybe some day the youth will see where the world stands and force a revolution.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

Musharref has the toughest job on the planet. he wants to bring Pakistan to the worlds stage as a player but the whole situation around and within his control is regressing at a faster pace than it was 8 years ago.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

-- Seneca

Props to Musharraf for standing up against it, you're right though - he's got quite an uphill climb. It's heartening to see that he is trying to bring his people out of the dark ages but he's up against two types of opponents: Those who realize that once Pakistan (and the whole Middle East) join the 21 century, they are out of power and up shit's creek; and those who are use to the lifestyle they live and would rather not change.

The first set include those who are calling for this Taliban-style domination, those who see faith, like Seneca said, as a tool - control the religion and you control the masses. The second are just normal, average people like you and I. We are all creatures of habit, nobody [i]likes[/i] to have their way of life changed or modified, but if change didn't occur we would still be riding wagons and dying of polio.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

One other thing as well - I think we need to differentiate between religion and [i]organized[/i] religion. I for one see no problem with someone wanting to connect with whatever "higher power" exists out there, but I do have gripes with individuals being judged on their adherence (or lack of) to specific rules based on ancient stories.

Anyone familiar with the writings of Joseph Campbell may be familiar with what he called "Syncretistic and Ethnic Monotheism". Syncretistic monotheism says that there is a higher power, a creator, intelligent designer ect..., someone or something that put all this in motion. He/she/it/they are beyond definition and description therefore it is impossible to completely understand what he/she/it/they is capable of. So people, throughout the ages, have made their own attempts at trying to understand, and from those attempts we have God, Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, Osirus, Tiamat ect... ect... different understandings for different people - none of which being completely right or completely wrong but more than enough to provide the individual with a feeling of that connection, that unity with whatever great power is out there.

Ethnic Monotheism on the other hand says that there is a higher power, and He is such and such and [i]only[/i] such and such. Any other name or image of that power is wrong and therefore blasphemous. It is from this novel idea that we have witnessed countless wars, unmitigated violence and ignorant hatred spread over the earth for as long as anyone would care to know.

Religion, as an idea, is not the problem. I think most of us feel that there is something else to this world/universe and some aspects of faith help us to get in touch with that. Its when that faith is used as or controlled with an iron fist that the problems begin. Campbell also said, and rather accurately in my opinion:

[i]Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.[/i]

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

I HAVE NEVEer read philosphy or social works and dont plan to in the future. something wrong about one guy saying that his views are right and people following the authors thoughts like religion. i like to form my own thoughts after looking at facts, not opinions. plato, aristotle, and so on are self indulgent twits in my book. they all form theories on thier opinions and thoughts and then claim that they are the teachers and preachers...

not for me. philosphy in the 14-18th centuries equate to MTV and Fox news today. ""this is what we are telling you is good, so you should buy into it.""

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

That's exactly my point though. Some philosphers, preachers, teachers, thinkers say "this is the way it is. Don't ask questions, we've done the thinking for you", others say "this is one possible way it is. Ask many questions and think for yourself"

I'm not a fan of the first group - don't listen to 'em, never will. I don't mind the 2nd group and am often interested in what they have to say. I know there is a shitload that I don't know or am uninformed about, so hearing other opinions on the matter might shead some light on ideas that I never even thought of. This forum is a perfect example.

[quote=George W. Bush]The U.S. president described the ideology of al-Zawahiri and his adherents as "dark, dim, backwards. They don't appreciate women. [b]If you don't agree to their narrow view of a religion, you'll be whipped in the public square.[/b]"[/quote] Sounds a lot like the religious right of this country if you ask me!

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

[quote=BSully828] Joseph Campbell [/i][/quote]

I've read "Reflections on the Art of Living" - Joseph Campbell.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

did you know...............that if you denounce islam in iran, iraq,saudi arabia, or pakistan, it is still legal for them to chop your left hand and foot off. FUCKED UP> :shock:

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

i'm thinking these other countries see the western world as being immoral. frankly, they have quite a few examples to back that claim up. so to say religion is plain wrong is to not respect other people's views and lives. and who's to say your way is better?

and self proclaimed smart people have used the line that "religion is for the weak minded" for centuries. imo, it's all an indication of a prideful person who can't believe that someone may be more intelligent than them.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

in america you are all glad slavery has been abolished and that it was right( with exception of ohio and places like that ) . but in islam slavery is rife bcos every woman or daughter is the property of a man .. if u think that is right and worth defending then u can't talk about respect for others

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

stop talking shits about the islam.. only a part of the ones that belive in ala follow the code.. it`s the same that happens with the other religions.. who follows the holly inquisition of the catolic church? the catolic church considers the woman inferior to.. it could not be elected as pope for example..

And a nice example of toleranci.. in the name of the church spain deported all the judish people.. and who welcome them? the otoman empire, a empire of muslims that not only have god realations with the judish.. they have tolerancy for the ortodox church too.

The coram itselfs says that good is the only one that could judge the "people of the book" for not acepting the word of the prophet. And anyone that whant`s to play good and judgem has the ticket to the hell granted.. today terrorist have it granted.. and saying that they follow the islam is talking shit.. read the book first.. them talk.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

[quote=thesightless]great example why religion is plain wrong[/quote]

religion in politics?

isn't there supposed to be a seperation of church and state? [img]http://www.howardstern.com/gallery/Religious%20Bush/images/th_4Religious%20Bush%20004.jpg[/img]

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

a leader can be faithful. i.e. democratic posterboy for the 1900's JFK.

its when they implement thier belieifs into the code of law that it goes wrong. lieberman is extremely faithful, so was reagan, so was carter, so was jfk, so was bush sr. but they knew to keep it out of the law. i really havent been paying attention , but has bush put any of his religious beleifs into the US code of law ?

[quote=thesightless]i really havent been paying attention , but has bush put any of his religious beleifs into the US code of law ?[/quote]

I'll take Intelligent Design for $1000, Alex.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

[quote=thesightless] democratic posterboy for the 1900's JFK. [/quote]

There hasn't been a decent democrat since Harry Truman.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

a female newspaper reporter was doing her tour in iraq prior to gulf war II . and she noticed that all the women had to walk ten spaces behind their husbands so she asked the woman " why it was so" . to which the iraqi woman replied " to show our respect. for the man is my owner and i do not deserve to go b4 him " anyhows war broke out and our lil journalist went back to england only to return to iraq after the war .. and walking the streets she noticed that this time the women were walking 10 paces in front .. amazed by this she approached the man and asked what had happened to change this fundamental rule. to which he replied "landmines" :CrackUp:

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

[quote=Jenks][quote=thesightless] democratic posterboy for the 1900's JFK. [/quote]

There hasn't been a decent democrat since Harry Truman.[/quote]

JFK was a real scummy person behind the scenes, but he was an enigmatic leader and vocal proponent of peace and eqaulity. gotta give him what respect he earned. but his whole family is bullshit with the worlds largest anti trust exemption. (the family got into bootlegging in the early 1900's and now they receive about 4 cents on every single bottled alchoholic beverage imported to the US)

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

[quote=thesightless] gotta give him what respect he earned[/quote]

No, i don't. lol. And i won't. Fuck Kennedy.

Last great democrat = Harry Truman.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

LMAO> cant argue your opinoin , im not eye-p.

Re: great example why religion is plain wrong

[img]http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2278/nazinger7hl.jpg[/img]

Hail Satan.

[img]http://photos.yafro.com/pics3/i/20050811/06/d/a/4/da4afa4cbde5ad65afc3085970e925f30_full.jpg[/img]