i think its bullshit that all these countries want thier debts forgiven completely. is it your creditors fault you fucked things up so badly? no. wahts next? forgive all the debt then increase aid? grrrrrr....... i hate this shit. i wish i could default on the 30k i owe from my masters, but i cant. these morons want billions forgiven.

""WAAAHH, we fucked up and cant control anything, let us off the hook and give us more money, WAAAHHH""--- fucking handouts dont solve anything. they should just bite the bullet and let businesses move in and create some form of economy. oh wait, free markets are evil. :roll:

this is my personal feeling. i clearly left out any facts or arguements. take it for what it is. my opinion.

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it sure would be nice if we (USA) could do the same and just forget all our debts.

man we owe a LOT. :cry:

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seriously, this is the main problem i have with the liberal left (and bush's right) is that these people are so beyond a lack of understanding of financing and economic issues. if you wipe the slate clean for an ENTIRE CONTINENT then the equation isnt balanced. we would need to wipe all worldwide debt for every country. i want to go up to Bono and ask him a few million from his personal assests, think he will give it to me. no he wouldnt. but the moment i left his property he would be asking someone for billions via a phone call.

grrrrr. i hate to say it, but this debt forgiveness is going to create a terrible idea that defaulting on monies owed is ok.

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...then there is the growing contingent that believes ending poverty will end terrorism and violence. Africa, being the poorest conteninent on the planet, is a good place to start. Debt relief...possibly a first step.

i THINK, that's the philosophy behind the idea you're having a problem with.

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no my philosophy stems from the fact that no one is held accountable for shit anymore. i would hold them to the debts and if collect if they couldnt pay.

basic example of not being held accountable.

in howard beach in queens NY. three young black kids went into an italian neighborhood where a hate crime was commited 20 years ago. they tried to steal one car and were chased off, they went to steal another and were caugfht by a kid named nic minucci. they jumped nic and held a screwdriver to his throat. in turn he got pissed, grab a friend and a bat. went right after the kids and cracked the skull of one of them. he got arrested.

my problems are.

1. they are trying miucci for a hate crime. he did commit battery, but not a hate crime. but al sharpton is down there saying white people hate black people.

2. the three kids have not been charged with anything as far as the papers are saying.

the kid got what he damn well deserved and now the minucci kid is the poster boy for hate crime when all he did was go after his attackers. my beef is the hate crime being laid upon the kid and the lack of charges on the other 3.

back to africa. they fucked themselves up by not doing things right. if they had these problems they should have fought to PREVENT them, not DEAL with them. they took aid money and since they were incapable of doing things right, they feel they can default. this isnt brooklyn and your welfare fund. its a fucking country's money they want to get relived of. they want more, but dont want to be held accountable for thier past indescretions. and if not, then pay up.

i say fine, forgive thier debt, but NEVER EVER AGAIN send a penny there, nothing, if ppl want to solve poverty and disease there on top of forgiving the coutrywide debt, then they should fund it out of thier own pockets. what did U2's last album gross out? the worlds nations arent charity. they are funded by us, for us.

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[quote=thesightless]this is my personal feeling. i clearly left out any facts or arguements. take it for what it is. my opinion.[/quote]

thesightless - you got that right. I advise you to read up a little on how the situation in Africa has been created over hundreds of years of colonialism, the new era of this in the World Bank, the IMF etc. etc.... before going off on a rant like this.....

I'm by no means a liberal, but for f*ck sake man, have you ANY interest in learning what causes these things to happen?

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yeah i do, and i know what you are talking about, but its my feelings. handouts like this should not be done, they just are too large and will fuck things up..........

its a financial thing, not humanitarian. they owe a buttload of money to the world and they shouldnt be let off over feelings. contracts were signed and should be executed to the full. llike i said, the world's countries arent a charity.

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Kinda of still on topic here, but a couple of quotes that I read from Bono and Geldoff about American support for Africa.

Mr. Geldof told Time magazine last month, "Actually, today I had to defend the Bush Administration in France again. They refuse to accept, because of their political ideology, that he has actually done more than any American president for Africa. But it's empirically so."

"I think he's done an incredible job, his Administration, on AIDS. And 250,000 Africans are on anti-viral drugs. They literally owe their lives to America," Bono said on NBC's "Meet the Press" a week ago Sunday.

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[quote=thesightless]its a financial thing, not humanitarian. they owe a buttload of money to the world and they shouldnt be let off over feelings. contracts were signed and should be executed to the full. llike i said, the world's countries arent a charity.[/quote]

Who do you think signed those contracts? The people who are starving to death??? I don't think so - they were signed by corrupt officials who would have taken the money and fled to some nice spot in the South of France....

I don't believe it's right to punish innocent children for the years of corruption, brought about by the after-effects of colonialism and neo-colonialism.

I understand people's anger when it comes to aid, this has been going on for over 20 years and the situation still seems to be deteriorating, Africa seems like a bottomless pit for aid, with the money never properly filtering down to the people who need it, but that's exactly why the rules need to be changed, it's not just a matter of throwing money at it, it's about fair trade, debt relief, helping the people of Africa help themselves. I listened to a very interesting woman from Zambia recently (sorry can't remember her name...) who explained that the Government there used to be totally corrupt, but the people have woken up and aren't letting them away with it anymore, they watch every penny the Government spend and ask questions of them.

I know it's very hard to have hope that things can get better there, but what choice is there?

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Lemme get back on this one later today...gotta do a bit of radio scheduling first ;-)

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[quote=thesightless]its a financial thing, not humanitarian. they owe a buttload of money to the world and they shouldnt be let off over feelings. contracts were signed and should be executed to the full. llike i said, the world's countries arent a charity.[/quote] man, you are waisted financial thing and not humanitarian? you think the poor guys have internet there, or space plans or are buying land on the moon? these guys dont have anything to eat.they dont have water cause they dont have the money do build a fountain cause they have to pay debts and interest to people who spend billions on building bombs i'm sorry but you got it all wrong, people should help each other not kill each other you want your money back cause you want to buy yourself an ipod, but the kid your taking the money from would need it to feed himself for a year it's not that kids fault that he was born in a country with huge depts if you think like that you're nothing but a miser

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[img]http://www.dreamstores.gr/images/classic_scrooge_big.jpg[/img]

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Easy there...a difference of opinion can be voiced without calling others a miser.

@ sightless: the problem is twofold: there has to be a general change of mentality among those who are in responsible positions in Africa, and the debt should indeed for a large part be cancelled. Read a bit into it: the African Union is not just simply asking for more money: it's also about the ditribution of the money. The whole NEPAD plan is about making aid more effective, partly by reducing the burden on the payment balance, partly by encouraging transparent and responsible government, and partly by ecouraring the initiative in the African countries themselves: 'Demand based aid' it's called. Don't just give aid, but direct it to specified area's & projects, bypassing the government as a financial channel (and thus avoiding the skimming of fundings).

A 3rd side of the story is trade: NEPAD is also aiming for fairer trade tariffs. At this moment for example, every single cow in the Netherlans is subsidized with ?350 early. In the poorest regions, that can feed an African family for a whole year. It will be hard for agrarian sectors in Europe, Asia and the US, but fair trade & production means those subsidies have to go.

Furthermore, the tariffs that have been annulled are mostly those on non-competitive goods: goods that do not compete with regionally produced goods. How lame is that...So the rest of the tariff walls will have to go too.

Africa should primarily invest in 4 sectors: Health Care, Education (healthy and educated workforce, capable of making advancements in technology), infrastructure on all levels (roads, phone lines, internet etc), industry (work towards a technologically competitive industry for the export and the local market).

No matter how hard it sounds...these are IMO the prime conditions for economical growth, prolongued political stability and technological advancement. At the same time, a growing economy and political stability also are the conditions in which foreign investment is attracted: that would lead to a connection to the global market and an influx of foreign capital, which will enhance the position of those countries on the global market.

That is why the African Union is also hammering on free trade: it could help African countries to get the hard foreign currency which is so sorely needed to acquire equipment or services from abroad.

Fuck, I'already hafway my damn thesis here...that's all for now folks :wink:

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haha, yeah, i'm just joking with sightless with the scrooge thing, he's not a miser.

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LOL, i was referring to Qwerty there....I know you were simply joking man. Don't beleive Qwerty meant to get rude, but still I had to voice it.

:D

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Yeah, let's pile on Qwerty. :P

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^^Qwerty? Fuck that mother fucker. He can suck my mother fuckin' dick. Worthless bastard.

J/K, Q :lol: thought I'd take the invitation to pile on...

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i didnt mean to be rude by miser i ment a person who only thinks of money, no feeling involved when it comes to money, sorry sightless if i offended you, it wasnt intended toasty, it was not you i was responding to, so be a gentelman and tell you're mama to keep herself to you

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oh, i understand what you are all saying , and i realize that its the right thing to do. but, its the complete lack of accountability here that is bugging me. its too much money not to recoup IMO.

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[quote=qwerty2222] toasty, it was not you i was responding to, so be a gentelman and tell you're mama to keep herself to you[/quote]

dude, I was seriously just playing around b/c of the suggestion to "pile on." no serious comment or offense intended. peace out.

edit:

BTW, my comment was an allusion to an old RevCo tune. So there was really nothing serious about the comment at all...

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Now can I get a decent reaction on my post?

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this is what the white man is doing to pay back the blacks for slavery. I bet all the black people in the USA are pissed because they thought they were going to get the check for there ancestors work.. I am happy about this though because africa has to get fixed..

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[quote=runningman]this is what the white man is doing to pay back the blacks for slavery. I bet all the black people in the USA are pissed because they thought they were going to get the check for there ancestors work.. I am happy about this though because africa has to get fixed..[/quote]

I hope you sig applies to this statement because what you said was absolutely ricockulous! Not to side with 'the white man' but to be fair blacks were sold into slavery by their own. I don't think any debts need to be paid back (except ours :lol: ).

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Something has to be done in Africa. 24k people starve to death every day in africa plus millions die because of aids.

The "Debt Relief" and "Grants" would curve the problem, but goverments are transferringg power to corporations and perosonal millionaires in order to create infrestracture for consumers and market economies. The new bechtels are buidling new roads, and the phizers are going to sell more drugs, and at last all the africans would run with the new customize nike shox.

Lets hope that the new leaders and our generation could invest in education and serving the whole world as one. I think that europeans as a more mature culture grasps the importance of education and program based aid.

The Future??? nobody knows.... at least i like the idea of people actually living and enyoing the beauty of life. According to the quantum theirs a probabiltiy for everything, lets the people figure out the chaos.

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@ Neoee

correction: slavery was occuring even before the arrival of the white man, BUT...it wasn't industrialised, only occurred on relatively small scale. We made an industry of it. Robbed Africa of more than one third of it's potential working force in that time. So there is deffo a debt to be paid.

There's so fucking many problems...i could write on and on about that.

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[quote=Yao]@ Neoee

correction: slavery was occuring even before the arrival of the white man, BUT...it wasn't industrialised, only occurred on relatively small scale. We made an industry of it. Robbed Africa of more than one third of it's potential working force in that time. So there is deffo a debt to be paid.

There's so fucking many problems...i could write on and on about that.[/quote]

Yao I agree with you on the industrialization of slavery, and to add I'm also ok with forgiving debts owed to the US, even though theres a lack of accountability (as sightless puts it). But only if they are for economic or even humanitarian purposes. I do however have a problem saying it is "owed" to them because the early civilizations believed slavery was just. That is a time long gone, our culture has changed. Our generation holds no responsibility for those of the past.

My mom came into this country with 80 dollars in her pocket in the 70's and busted her ass to get where she is today. Do you think she as a US citizen [i]owes[/i] for the mistakes of those before she was even a member of this country- or even a twinkle in her father's eye?

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Even though I was only referring to the slavery in my last post, if you reread my post before (the big one) you will see I will certeinly not put the guilt at one side. But yes, I know it sounds cruel, but as a collective we still have a debt to pay to that continent. I totally understand your reasoning, but this is a thing that really cannot be looked at individually.

We can't suck a continent dry of all of its resources and then pull back saying: it wasn't me, it was my father, or grandfather. As a people, when you make mistakes, you have the obligation to set that right just as well as an individual. And in some cases it takes multiple generations yes.

But thank god there are finally standing up a few African leaders that tell their people to quit whining and DO something about their situation, instead of just sitting there feeling mistreated.

Then again, in other countries where people are willing to bust their asses off for a better future they are still held back by a moron greedy dictator (Zimbabwe, Togo, Equatorial Guinea). Eventually dictatorship will get rid of itself, but it may take some time, unless we intevene through either politics or the military.

But the reason why Africa is still so underdeveloped is the so-called Neo-Colonialism (Kwame Nkrumah, Ghana). It's all too easy to make aid look like aid but then let it help Europe/US rather than Africa. How?

example: help farmers acquire new and better agrarical techniques to increase the production of their lands. What does it involve? Buying expensive heavy equipment and artficial fertilizers from Western companies, who increase the prices every year. The first year is free, but then....and the balance ends up negative.

Give governments subsidies for educational improvements. Condition: to hire more Western teachers to help improve the quality of education. Those Western teachers are 3 to 10 times as expensive than African teachers.

[size=6][b][color=red] Don't look at the intital aid flow, look at the conditions attached to it.[/color][/b][/size]

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ya it was a joke.. but seriously africa is in a sad state of affairs and I am more then happy to see that the western world is proving that they are better then the east by coordinating a $50 billion package to help save the continent of africa.. this should help with terrorism but it probably won't because the brainwashing has gone to deep..

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[quote=Yao]

[size=6][b][color=red] Don't look at the initial aid flow, look at the conditions attached to it.[/color][/b][/size][/quote]

Yao, I couldn?t have agreed more. Just like you, I lived in Africa and am going back soon. This aid should have some strings attached though. It is in this world not possible to simple relief all countries' debt. There have to be certain criteria which determine which countries' governments are the most likely to correctly invest and use the new financial situation. The money that is normally used to pay off the debt or to pay the interest has to be invested.

Naturally it is not possible to relief Zimbabwe of their debt (BTW they recently applied for a new loan form South Africa, but when Mbeki had certain strings attached and wanted to see results and such Mgabi wasn?t interested anymore. he probably needed the money to built his 35th palace with bunker and more Bentleys and such).

I also do understand the correlation to slavery and the industrialisation of it and the fact that the West has greatly contributed to the current state of affair in Africa. However, I personally am not willing to take all the blame. As said before in this topic, the World Bank has, yet again, screwed African countries over by imposing their ridiculous conditions and the same for individual loan given by Western countries. It is indeed the conditions that have had a great influence on the current situation.

Ok having said this, i also do not think that African countries go without any blame. Those countries that are having corrupt regimes should not receive dept relief. Nobody will have benefits from that except the corrupt people in charge.

And debt relief is likely to reduce terrorism in Africa. When people earn money they are able to built a future, take care of their family and send their kids to school. When these basic needs are not supplied or when people do not have the money to pay for them they end in poverty. Now a terroristic organisation works as a company (Read Jessica's Stern book on terrorism and religion). They supply those standard needs and in return they only demand those people's kids for a little favour, Become a suiside bumber. Ofcourse those families this that it is an onhour for them, after all they are giving their kids to allah or god or which ever mighty ruler. There you go, poverty supports terrorism.

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For me Mugabe from Zimbabwe is nothing more than a legal criminal: all the countries are unwilling to take action against him, just a few days ago the South-African deputy president has said that it could 'learn' from Zimbabwe when it comes to land reform. Fucking idiot. ([url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4140990.stm[/url])

With all his big mouth on 'African solutions for African problems' Thabo Mbeki has discarded himself IMO by not taking a stand against Mugabe's ridiculous polilies which are clearly aimed at prolonging his presidency (and inherent to that, his self-enriching).

Financial aid in itself is not an incentive to really start doing things for the people receiving it...they should only receive support to set up long-term projects/businesses which will generate enough income in the long run. And until African industries become competitive on the world market, a little protectionism is in place I think. African economies started going wrong when they abandoned the socialist/communist way and entered the capitalist world market, simply because they were outcompeted and never even had the chance to develop themselves on that market. An open African market meant that is immediately was flooded with Western products, and had to supply the raw materials. Efforts to start up domestic production were discouraged by tariff walls, taxes, administrative humps, bans on goods and simply buying whole industries by Western companies.

I'm kinda for having protectionis measures in Africa along with investment in their industries and public sercives: let it mature a bit before exposing it to the world market. Also, the brain drain should be put to a stop, and maybe that is done best by investing in knowledge, in schools as well as after schools. I may sounds harsh to give those who already a lucky enough to have a decent education a pay raise, but maybe it's necessary to keep them in, because hiring scientists and other high-educated people back form the West is still many times as expensive...

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I dont think that Mbeki is just to blame, it is the reluctance of the African Union when it comes to standing up to Mugabe. Imo Mbeki is among the most Africa hearted presidents in Africa. He has done so many peace missions that it seems that he is more working on African politics than domestic politics. Nevertheless, SA, too, does not seem to be a very strong nation where the first vice-president is conviceted of fraudulent relationships (he personally has not been convicted yet) and the new vice president is even more radical towards whites. Anyway it seems that yet another chapter in the black - white book has started.

Still, the bottum line is that debt relief is required to give African nations a new chance

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I agree with the latter: a fresh start is good...and I'm glad that so much has already been done, and more will be done.

I wasn't simply hitting on Mbeki tho, I'm pointing out one of the flaws in the so called 'New Partnership for Africa's Development' (NEPAD). Everyone is cheering and saying that bad politicians won't be tolerated anymore and such, but there still seems to be a structural problem/difference between intentions and reality. Mugabe's behaviour (but also that of a few more dictators like Eyadema Nguema from Equatorial Guinea) is symptomatic for those who are unwilling to give up power. Museveni of Uganda is still in the green, question is wether he'll be able to stay there. With all this talk about solutions, the emphasis has still been on debt relief and aid, not on really cracking down on politicians that are still soiling their own nest. I'd wanna see some action and results before I'd give my money....