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Is Bush winning the war on terror?

42 durable postsStarted 2004-06-28Latest 2004-06-29
#1559Post 1 of 42

The war on terror cannot be won by military force alone. Defeating terrorists requires allies, intelligence, and respect as well as the threat and implementation of physical force.

The war on Afganhistan, despite it's links to the pipeline deal, was almost unanimously internationally respected. France and Germany immedately offered troops and still have a large presence in the country. Only 2 or 3 countries actually opposed the action.

At the time, the biggest selling French paper had the headline [i]"We are all Americans today."[/i] Around the world, people were overcome with grief from the tradgedy and world opinion of the United States was extremely high.

[b]Why Iraq was different[/b]

According to numerous White House insiders, including Condi Rice, Bush had talked about invading Iraq in his very first security meeting. According to Richard Clarke, Bush asked if Iraq was involved directly after the 9/11 attacks.

After Afghanistan, Bush talked about Iraq in the context of the 9/11 attacks, saying that they'd changed everything and that the US could no longer accept potential threats.

The reason given was the threat of weapons of mass destruction. The tie to terrorism was a lesser reason and regime change was barely mentioned... even denied by Ari Fleisher.

The US then went to the United Nations and agreed to a resolution that called for an enhances WMD inspection regime to be implemented in Iraq, Resolution 1441. It stated very clearly that the UN inspection teams had to report any non-compliance to the Security Council so a suitable response could be formulated.

Nothing was mentioned about regime change or liberation.

The inspection teams began their work and immediately inspected all the most likely weapons sites provided by US intelligence. Surprisingly, they found nothing to report on.

In his report to the UN Security Council, Hans Blix said the following:

[i]"In the past two months during which we have built-up our presence in Iraq, we have conducted about 300 inspections to more than 230 different sites. Of these, more than 20 were sites that had not been inspected before. By the end of December, UNMOVIC began using helicopters both for the transport of inspectors and for actual inspection work. We now have eight helicopters. They have already proved invaluable in helping to ?freeze? large sites by observing the movement of traffic in and around the area."

"We have now an inspection apparatus that permits us to send multiple inspection teams every day all over Iraq, by road or by air. Let me end by simply noting that that capability which has been built-up in a short time and which is now operating, is at the disposal of the Security Council."[/i]

The Bush team got quite upset by the lack of inspection results and a few Republicans bashed Hans Blix for his "failure" to uncover weapons. A few weeks later, Colin Powell gave a speech to the Security Council which contained pictures of Iraqi WMD equipment (including chemical sites and biological trucks) amongst other things.

The next day it was revealed that Powell had taken some of his information from a forged university thesis. The next week Hans Blix revealed that not only were the satellite photos of weapons sites taken a few weeks apart, but also that after inspection, none of those sites contained any evidence of WMDS. The nuclear inspection agency promply reported that the report on Iraqi nukes was "forged", a conclusion that Ambassador Wilson had already reported to Cheney's office over a year ealier.

The US then attempted to push through a resolution to "disarm" Iraq but found very scant support within the Security Council and in the UN generally. Many countries outside the Security Council used a special session in the UN to protest the US action.

[b]World Opinion[/b]

[i]"One power with a president who has no foresight -- who cannot think properly -- is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust." [/i] Nelson Mandela

Archbishop Renato Martino, a former U.N. envoy and current prefect of the Council for Justice and Peace, said the war against Iraq was not a "preventative" war and constituted a "war of aggression", and thus did not constitute a "just war." The foreign minister, Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, expressed concerns that a war in Iraq would inflame anti-Christian feelings in the Islamic world.

On February 8, 2003, Pope John Paul II said "[i]we should never resign ourselves, almost as if war is inevitable." [/i] [i]"The spectacle of the United States, armed with its weapons of mass destruction, acting without Security Council authority to invade a country in the heartland of Arabia and, if necessary, use its weapons of mass destruction to win that battle, is something that will so deeply violate any notion of fairness in this world that I strongly suspect it could set loose forces that we would deeply live to regret."[/i] Richard Butler who led the UN inspection teams in Iraq until 1998

Hosni Mubarak predicted "100 more Bin Laden's" would be caused by the war.

The World Council of Churches, which represents between 350 million and 450 million Christians from over 100 countries, published a statement in opposition to war with Iraq. The executive committee said, [i]"War against Iraq would be immoral, unwise, and in breach of the principles of the United Nations Charter."[/i]

The war in Iraq was protested by more people internationally than any other war in history since Vietnam.

[i]A weekend of worldwide anti-war demonstrations has brought millions of people out onto the streets in support of a peaceful solution to the crisis between Iraq and the United States.

Between six and 10 million people are thought to have marched in up to 60 countries over the weekend - the largest demonstrations of their kind since the Vietnam War.

Some of the largest turnouts were seen in countries whose governments have offered the staunchest support for US President George W Bush's tough stance against Iraq, threatening military action to force it to comply with UN disarmament rules. [/i] Since then the global opinion of the US has declined dramatically, as reported by numerous independant surveys and polls. Countries are less keen on sharing information with the US and some aren't even considered "allies" for their reluctance to join the war.

The US then attacked Iraq and Iraqi opinion about the action was very high. A lot of them thanked the US for their liberation but after the US failed to commit enough ground troops and couldn't prevent the looting and anarchy that followed, sure enough a lot of them turned against the US and many of them even accept the latest terrorist attacks as completely justified.

No large quantities of WMDs were found by the US, contrary to it's claims and so was no evidence of established ties to Al Queda, as documented by the 9/11 committee.

Liberation which was supposed to liberate people actually turned a country into chaos and killed over 10,000 civilians. This was all paraded on international television stations. Reconstruction has been minimal due to the already stated anarchy.

As I've mentioned, global opinion was always overwhelmingly against this war. Only now has the US public been more aware of it's reality. Finally.

The war on terrorist requires allies. It needs credibility and all the help and intelligence it can get. It needs less Muslims to become terrorists and to hate the United States.

Instead of the US focussing on these problems, it created completely new problems by declaring that it was invade Iraq, unilaterally if necessary.

The war on Iraq completely undermined the war on terrorism. The US removed CIA trackers from Afganhistan to join the hunt for Saddam Hussein.

Less people respect the US and many more Muslims are happy to blow themselves up for their cause.

In Iraq, the moderate Shite/Sunni population have become measurably more fundamentalist, a lot of them wanting to form an Islamic State. [b] Even Rumsfeld admitted:[/b] [i]"we don't have a good visibility into how many new recruits are coming in

  • the intake - and going to these radical madrassa schools and learning how to go out and kill people and being encouraged and equipped and trained to deploy to do these suicide missions. We don't know that and unless one knows that, you can't answer the question are you winning or losing."[/i]

[i]Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

Does the US need to fashion a broad, integrated plan to stop the next generation of terrorists? The US is putting relatively little effort into a long-range plan, but we are putting a great deal of effort into trying to stop terrorists. The cost-benefit ratio is against us! Our cost is billions against the terrorists' costs of millions.[/i] [b] And the State Dept:[/b] [i]SUBJECT: PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT

WORLDWIDE CAUTION

This Public Announcement is being updated to remind U.S. citizens of the continuing threat of terrorist actions and anti-American violence against U.S. citizens and interests overseas. This supersedes the Worldwide Caution dated March 23, 2004 and expires on October 23, 2004.

The Department of State is deeply concerned about the heightened threat of terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens and interests abroad. The Department is also concerned about the potential for demonstrations and violent actions against U.S. citizens and interests overseas. U.S. citizens are reminded to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness.

The Department of State remains concerned by indications that al-Qaida continues to prepare to strike U.S. interests abroad. Al-Qaida and its associated organizations have most recently struck in the Middle East and in Europe but other geographic locations could also be venues for attacks. Future al-Qaida attacks could possibly involve non-conventional weapons such as chemical or biological agents as well as conventional weapons of terror. We also cannot rule out that al-Qaida will attempt a catastrophic attack within the U.S.

Terrorist actions may include, but are not limited to, suicide operations, hijackings, bombings or kidnappings. These may involve aviation and other transportation and maritime interests, and may also include conventional weapons, such as explosive devices. Terrorists do not distinguish between official and civilian targets. These may include facilities where U.S. citizens and other foreigners congregate or visit, including residential areas, clubs, restaurants, places of worship, schools, hotels and public areas. U.S. citizens are encouraged to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness.

U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert. These facilities may temporarily close or suspend public services from time to time to assess their security posture. In those instances, U.S. embassies and consulates will make every effort to provide emergency services to U.S. citizens. Americans abroad are urged to monitor the local news and maintain contact with the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.[/i]

[b] You decide whether Bush is really winning the war on terror. [/b]

#214096Post 2 of 42

[quote]The war on terrorist requires allies[/quote]

While skimming through this I couldn't help but notice this assertion that immediately destabilizes the whole argument.

We do have allies. I just do not understand how the opposing view keeps ignoring the obvious.

[url]http://www.victorhanson.com/Articles/NRO%20Index/Year_Three.html[/url]

This will sum it up.

#214101Post 3 of 42

[quote=cosmo][quote]The war on terrorist requires allies[/quote]

While skimming through this I couldn't help but notice this assertion that immediately destabilizes the whole argument.

We do have allies. I just do not understand how the opposing view keeps ignoring the obvious.

[url]http://www.victorhanson.com/Articles/NRO%20Index/Year_Three.html[/url]

This will sum it up.[/quote]

[b]I never said the US didn't have allies. [/b]

I said that the war in Iraq reduced it's allies significantly from when it was fighting Afghanistan.

#214105Post 4 of 42

[quote=delirious][quote=cosmo][quote]The war on terrorist requires allies[/quote]

While skimming through this I couldn't help but notice this assertion that immediately destabilizes the whole argument.

We do have allies. I just do not understand how the opposing view keeps ignoring the obvious.

[url]http://www.victorhanson.com/Articles/NRO%20Index/Year_Three.html[/url]

This will sum it up.[/quote]

[b]I never said the US didn't have allies. [/b]

I said that the war in Iraq reduced it's allies significantly from when it was fighting Afghanistan.[/quote]

Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.

#214111Post 5 of 42

[quote=Civic_Zen]France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.[/quote]

Thank God for that. Could you imagine an entire continent run by historical pussies and...well, Germans period????

I shudder to think. :WTF:

#214136Post 6 of 42

[quote=Civic_Zen]Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.[/quote]

Are you talking about the countries or of the opinion of the people in them?

The English people were by in large against the war without UN authorisation. Italian people were over 90% against the war, [b]so were the people in nearly every country in the world[/b]. Government's by in large don't create terrorists, rather they are caused by independent cells within countries.

[img]http://www.eriposte.com/war_peace/iraq/world_support/gallup_intl_2003_by_country.gif[/img]

[b]Here is a list of counties against the war. Notice how not all of them are from from Europe or are called "France" or "Germany"[/b] New Zealand, Russia, China, Belarus, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Greece, Austria, Liechtenstein, Serbia , The Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, the Vatican City, Canada

[b]The Entire Arab League, with the exception of Kuwait:[/b]

* Egypt
* Iraq
* Jordan 
* Lebanon 
* Saudi Arabia 
* Syria
* Yemen 
* Libya
* Sudan
* Morocco
* Tunisia
* Algeria
* United Arab Emirates
* Bahrai
* Qatar
* Oman
* Mauritania 3
* Somalia 
* Palestine
* Djibouti
* Comoros

[b]As well as the African Union, consisting of 53 member states including: [/b]

* People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
* Republic of Angola
* Republic of Benin
* Republic of Botswana
* Burkina Faso
* Republic of Burundi
* Republic of Cameroon
* Republic of Cape Verde
* Central African Republic
* Republic of Chad
* Union of Comoros
* Republic of the Congo
* Republic of C?te d'Ivoire
* Democratic Republic of Congo
* Republic of Djibouti
* Arab Republic of Egypt
* State of Eritrea
* Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
* Republic of Equatorial Guinea
* Gabonese Republic
* The Republic of The Gambia
* Republic of Ghana
* Republic of Guinea
* Republic of Guinea Bissau
* Republic of Kenya
* Lesotho
* Republic of Liberia
* Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
* Republic of Madagascar
* Republic of Malawi
* Republic of Mali
* Islamic Republic of Mauritania
* Republic of Mauritius
* Republic of Mozambique
* Republic of Namibia
* Republic of Niger
* Federal Republic of Nigeria
* Republic of Rwanda
* Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
* Democratic Republic of S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe
* Republic of Senegal
* Republic of Seychelles
* Republic of Sierra Leone
* Republic of Somalia
* Republic of South Africa
* Republic of Sudan
* Swaziland
* United Republic of Tanzania
* Togolese Republic
* Republic of Tunisia
* Republic of Uganda
* Republic of Zambia
* Republic of Zimbabwe

[b]I wasn't just talking about Europe. I never said France and Germany spoke for the world. [/b]The world speaks for the world. The fact is worldwide opinion for this war has always been low. Even American support for it has tanked in recent months!

#214141Post 7 of 42

[quote=delirious][quote=Civic_Zen]Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.[/quote]

Are you talking about the countries or of the opinion of the people in them?

The English people were by in large against the war without UN authorisation. Italian people were over 90% against the war, [b]so were the people in nearly every country in the world[/b]. Government's by in large don't create terrorists, rather they are caused by independent cells within countries.

[img]http://www.eriposte.com/war_peace/iraq/world_support/gallup_intl_2003_by_country.gif[/img]

[b]Here is a list of counties against the war. Notice how not all of them are from from Europe or are called "France" or "Germany"[/b] New Zealand, Russia, China, Belarus, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Greece, Austria, Liechtenstein, Serbia , The Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, the Vatican City, Canada

[b]The Entire Arab League, with the exception of Kuwait:[/b]

* Egypt
* Iraq
* Jordan 
* Lebanon 
* Saudi Arabia 
* Syria
* Yemen 
* Libya
* Sudan
* Morocco
* Tunisia
* Algeria
* United Arab Emirates
* Bahrai
* Qatar
* Oman
* Mauritania 3
* Somalia 
* Palestine
* Djibouti
* Comoros

[b]As well as the African Union, consisting of 53 member states including: [/b]

* People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
* Republic of Angola
* Republic of Benin
* Republic of Botswana
* Burkina Faso
* Republic of Burundi
* Republic of Cameroon
* Republic of Cape Verde
* Central African Republic
* Republic of Chad
* Union of Comoros
* Republic of the Congo
* Republic of C?te d'Ivoire
* Democratic Republic of Congo
* Republic of Djibouti
* Arab Republic of Egypt
* State of Eritrea
* Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia
* Republic of Equatorial Guinea
* Gabonese Republic
* The Republic of The Gambia
* Republic of Ghana
* Republic of Guinea
* Republic of Guinea Bissau
* Republic of Kenya
* Lesotho
* Republic of Liberia
* Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
* Republic of Madagascar
* Republic of Malawi
* Republic of Mali
* Islamic Republic of Mauritania
* Republic of Mauritius
* Republic of Mozambique
* Republic of Namibia
* Republic of Niger
* Federal Republic of Nigeria
* Republic of Rwanda
* Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
* Democratic Republic of S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe
* Republic of Senegal
* Republic of Seychelles
* Republic of Sierra Leone
* Republic of Somalia
* Republic of South Africa
* Republic of Sudan
* Swaziland
* United Republic of Tanzania
* Togolese Republic
* Republic of Tunisia
* Republic of Uganda
* Republic of Zambia
* Republic of Zimbabwe

[b]I wasn't just talking about Europe. I never said France and Germany spoke for the world. [/b]The world speaks for the world. The fact is worldwide opinion for this war has always been low. Even American support for it has tanked in recent months![/quote]

Wow...do you want to reconcider your answer when I asked you if you have alot of time on your hands???

#214150Post 8 of 42

[quote=delirious][quote=Civic_Zen]Again. Delirious is delirious. Europe has the most countries that don't agree with what we are doing, and even in Europe there are more countries that agree with us then disagree.

Poland is fighting with us, as is England. I could start a list of countries in Europe and whether they are our allies in Iraq or not, and it would end up at least 60% agree, and 40% disagree.

You liberals so blatently ignore the facts it is excruciatingly painful. France and Germany don't speak for all of Europe you know, nor for the whole world.[/quote]

Are you talking about the countries or of the opinion of the people in them? [/quote]

Obviously I'm speaking for the countries. Or maybe that wasn't obvious to you. 90% of people in Italy? Where did you get that poll? Your favorite site BBC, or the Guardian, either way its wrong. Italy HAS TROOPS fighting in Iraq with us. The people fighting were given a choice to do so or not and chose to fight.

The same with American troops. Sure, some polls would have you believe that most in the US disagree with the war in Iraq too, but it shouldn't matter to anyone as much as it matters to the people doing the actual fighting. Question. Do you know or know anyone who knows a single person fighting in Iraq?? If so, how do they feel about being there? I know, or know indirectly no less then 10 people who have faught, or are currently over there. Not a single one of them would have it any other way.

#214170Post 9 of 42

[quote=Civic_Zen] Obviously I'm speaking for the countries. Or maybe that wasn't obvious to you. 90% of people in Italy? Where did you get that poll? Your favorite site BBC, or the Guardian, either way its wrong. Italy HAS TROOPS fighting in Iraq with us. The people fighting were given a choice to do so or not and chose to fight.
[/quote]

Notice how I never rip you off or call you names. That's only the debating tactic of the deperate. BTW if you ever get a "questionable" URL from me, perhaps from one of the most respected English (your ally!) newspapers, please ask me for another source and I'll happily provide one.

Again, you're talking about something unrelated: [b]I never said Italy wasn't fighting in the war.[/b] Believe it or not, people can't just leave the army when an unpopular war comes up. They are signed up for a certain amount of service!

Correction about my Italy fact: It turns out nearly 4/5 Italians were opposed the action without UN authorisation acording to Opinioni. Other polls said 75%. My sincerest apologies, I must've got muddled up. :Naughty: :D

[quote=Civic_Zen] The same with American troops. Sure, some polls would have you believe that most in the US disagree with the war in Iraq too, but it shouldn't matter to anyone as much as it matters to the people doing the actual fighting. Question. Do you know or know anyone who knows a single person fighting in Iraq?? If so, how do they feel about being there? I know, or know indirectly no less then 10 people who have faught, or are currently over there. Not a single one of them would have it any other way.[/quote]

If my friends were in Iraq, I'd support them (Just as I support the soldiers doing their job in Iraq - I never critised them)

As it so happens, the US has a big problem with morale in Iraq at the moment. I don't bet that most of the soldiers actually want to be fighting this war at the moment. They'd rather be home with their families, helping to protect the homeland.

[quote][size=6]In Army Survey, Troops in Iraq Report Low Morale[/size] ( Friday, March 26, 2004 ) The Washington Post

A slim majority of Army soldiers in Iraq -- 52 percent -- reported that their morale was low, and three-fourths of them said they felt poorly led by their officers, according to a survey taken at the end of the summer and released yesterday by the Army.

In addition, seven in 10 of those surveyed characterized the morale of their fellow soldiers as low or very low. The problems were most pronounced among lower-ranking troops and those in reserve units.

"Nearly 75% of the groups reported that their battalion-level command leadership was poor" and showed "a lack of concern" for their soldiers, said an Army report accompanying the data. "Unit cohesion was also reported to be low."

The survey was part of a study initiated by the Army last summer after a number of suicides provoked concern about the mental well-being of soldiers in Iraq. The report faulted the Army for how it handled mental health problems, saying some counselors felt inadequately trained and citing problems in distribution of antidepressant medication and sleeping pills.

But perhaps the most surprising findings were the grim conclusions about troop morale, which indicate that Iraq is taking a toll that goes beyond casualty figures.

The Pentagon has been intensely worried that more frequent and longer combat tours will prompt more soldiers to get out of the Army rather than reenlist, especially if it means a second stint in Iraq or Afghanistan. Army insiders say it is likely that brigades from three divisions that served in Iraq over the past year -- the 101st Airborne, the 3rd Infantry and the 4th Infantry -- are likely to be sent back in 2005.

The Pentagon data on morale also appear to give official confirmation to a more informal survey conducted last summer by Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper. That survey found about half of troops who filled out questionnaires described their unit's morale as low and their training as insufficient, and said they did not plan to reenlist.

Col. Virgil Patterson, who oversaw the Army survey, said he was "somewhat surprised" by the findings on troop morale. He noted that when the survey was taken, soldiers were still feeling the effects of a brutally hot Iraqi summer, and that since then troops have better living conditions and are better able to communicate with their families.

"It was a pretty miserable set of circumstances at the time," he said. "We speculate that all of those contributed to the factor of low morale."

Patterson said he could not place the numbers in historical context because similar surveys have not been conducted before. "This is the first time we've ever gone into an active combat theater and asked soldiers how they are doing, so we have no comparative data," he said. The study, conducted from late August through early October 2003, surveyed 756 Army soldiers in Iraq and Kuwait, focusing on units that had engaged in combat.

Reaction to the Army's survey was mixed among several experts.

Retired Army Col. Robert Killebrew, a Vietnam War veteran, said, "It's not particularly surprising, especially given the frustrating nature of the combat they're facing now, with patrols and bombs going off."

But a senior Army commander who spoke on the condition of anonymity expressed alarm.

"I'd be extremely worried by these numbers," said the officer, who specializes in morale issues. Having more than half the soldiers surveyed say they are unhappy should "set off alarm bells," the officer said.

Jonathan Shay, a Veterans Affairs psychiatrist, called it "a painful report to read." Shay, who wrote two books on cohesion and leadership problems in the U.S. military during the Vietnam War, said the report shows morale and cohesion were "seriously low" among troops in Iraq.

The report faulted the Army's handling of mental health issues for troops and called for appointment of a "czar" to coordinate such services in Iraq and Kuwait. Patterson said a medical specialist would fill that new position next month.

In its findings on suicide, the report confirmed data previously released by the Army that the rate among soldiers in Iraq in 2003 was higher than for the Army generally, but lower than that of U.S. men of a similar age range. There were 23 confirmed suicides among Army troops in Iraq in 2003, for a rate of 15.6 per 100,000 soldiers, the report said. That compares with an Army average in recent years of 11.9, they said.

Col. Bruce Crow, an Army psychologist and an expert in suicide prevention who served as a member of the study group, said there were few clear patterns to the suicides, such as a persistent correlation with how long the troops had been deployed or what type of work they were doing. But he said soldiers who killed themselves generally tended to be younger, unmarried men.[/quote] [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25127-2004Mar25.html[/url]

#214190Post 10 of 42

[quote=evangelion]Wow...do you want to reconcider your answer when I asked you if you have alot of time on your hands???[/quote]

Answer the following and I'll willingly answer your question: Why do you care if I have time on my hands or not? Why is it an issue? Is there some rule to only write short, ranty posts with no real data in them?

#214193Post 11 of 42

I don't understand why everytime liberals read bad news they think: :cry: We should just give up and leave.

Are problems unable to be solved these days?......i don't get it. Morale is low and people disagree with us.....so let's leave Iraq and run from our problems

That oughta solve everything :Bingo:

#214198Post 12 of 42

[quote=mylexicon]I don't understand why everytime liberals read bad news they think: :cry: We should just give up and leave.

Are problems unable to be solved these days?......i don't get it. Morale is low and people disagree with us.....so let's leave Iraq and run from our problems

That oughta solve everything :Bingo:[/quote]

Well I disagree with those Liberals. The US shouldn't leave Iraq but deploy more ground troops to improve the security situation. When a US commander recommended that before the war, he was dismissed. Then when the State Department warned of the risks of the invasion and created a plan to cope with them, it was also dismissed by the Pentagon.

My argument is that this was the wrong war to fight at the wrong time. The worldwide opinion at the time said the same thing. Most of the US's allies' populations were against the war. Nearly all of the Arab countries (and their populations) were also against the war. Turkey (a longtime US ally) didn't even let the US use it's Southern border with Iraq for the Northern Invasion.

Don't leave now but try to recognise the grave errors that were made in this war.

Even now, over 50% of Americans regard it as a mistake. Most of them, however, don't think the US should just run. That's my opinion, too.

#214199Post 13 of 42

no, everyone just wants them solved nice and quickly..and when they can't be...

#214201Post 14 of 42

How many of those countries were hit on 9/11? Do you think they care about the war on terror?

If anything the majority of those people hate us(for other reasons) to begin with and want to appease the enemy so they will not get attacked.

#214208Post 15 of 42

[quote=cosmo]How many of those countries were hit on 9/11? Do you think they care about the war on terror? [/quote]

Quite a lot of them, according to the State Dept. These countries suffered losses on 9/11:

Antigua & Barbuda Argentina Australia Austria Bangladesh Barbados Belarus Belgium Belize Bolivia Brazil Canada Chile China Colombia Czech Republic Dominica Dominican Republic Ecuador Egypt El Salvador Ethiopia France The Gambia Germany Ghana Greece Grenada Guatemala Guyana Haiti Honduras Hong Kong India Indonesia Ireland Israel Italy Jamaica Japan Jordan Kazakhstan Kenya Lebanon Liberia Lithuania Malaysia Mexico The Netherlands New Zealand Nicaragua Nigeria Pakistan Panama Paraguay Peru Philippines Poland Portugal Romania Russia South Africa South Korea Spain Sri Lanka St. Kitts & Nevis St. Lucia St. Vincent & the Grenadines Sweden Switzerland Taiwan Thailand Togo Trinidad & Tobago Turkey Ukraine United Kingdom United States of America Uruguay Uzbekistan Venezuela Yemen Yugoslavia Zimbabwe

[url]http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rpt/6947.htm[/url]

[quote=cosmo] If anything the majority of those people hate us(for other reasons) to begin with and want to appease the enemy so they will not get attacked.[/quote]

The majority of the world hated America before the war? :lol: Do you have any data to back up that statement?

Why, then, when Clinton visited Africa and Britain, and the rest of the world, was he greeted on the street with much less of a security arrangement than Bush? Was he hated in the same way? Did people burn efigies of him in the street? Didn't he try to help the Middle East peace process and all that?

:roll:

#214231Post 16 of 42

[quote=delirious]

Well I disagree with those Liberals. The US shouldn't leave Iraq but deploy more ground troops to improve the security situation. When a US commander recommended that before the war, he was dismissed. Then when the State Department warned of the risks of the invasion and created a plan to cope with them, it was also dismissed by the Pentagon.[/quote]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: And Kerry is going to achieve this :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[quote=delirious]Turkey (a longtime US ally) didn't even let the US use it's Southern border with Iraq for the Northern Invasion.[/quote]

They need a steaming mad emoticon on this board :lol: You really need to read about the Kurds. The Kurds occupy a very large territory in Nothern Iraq and Southern Turkey. The Turkish government was [b]afraid[/b] that America was going to support the formation of an independent Kurdish state and that the entire southern chunk of Turkey was going to revolt and try to join them. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. I can't say it enough, learn history and READ. Everyone should read and watch the history channel, or history international while reading books that deal with history. Then when they come home from work or school they should turn off CNN and read history books and modern history essays. They should read in their sleep and stop watching Fahrenheit 911 because it doesn't set a historical background, and therefore can't offer any perspective on what is happening. You should read while you brush your teeth and read while you watch the history channel. Resist your urge to watch the Herbal Essence commercial breaks and continue to read some more. :Hmmm: Nevermind you can take a break to watch Herbal Essences :mrgreen:

#214292Post 17 of 42

[quote=mylexicon] :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: And Kerry is going to achieve this :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: [/quote]

Yes, I think Kerry will do a better job than Bush did. And you can't say for sure what he will do, because he changes his position all the time, so how can you know whether or not is he going to finish the Iraq campaign better than Bush? :Tongue: :lol:

[quote=mylexicon] [quote=delirious]Turkey (a longtime US ally) didn't even let the US use it's Southern border with Iraq for the Northern Invasion.[/quote]

They need a steaming mad emoticon on this board :lol: You really need to read about the Kurds. The Kurds occupy a very large territory in Nothern Iraq and Southern Turkey. The Turkish government was [b]afraid[/b] that America was going to support the formation of an independent Kurdish state and that the entire southern chunk of Turkey was going to revolt and try to join them. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. READ. I can't say it enough, learn history and READ. Everyone should read and watch the history channel, or history international while reading books that deal with history. Then when they come home from work or school they should turn off CNN and read history books and modern history essays. They should read in their sleep and stop watching Fahrenheit 911 because it doesn't set a historical background, and therefore can't offer any perspective on what is happening. You should read while you brush your teeth and read while you watch the history channel. Resist your urge to watch the Herbal Essence commercial breaks and continue to read some more. :Hmmm: Nevermind you can take a break to watch Herbal Essences :mrgreen:[/quote]

I am aware of the Turkish fear of the Kurdish state, but still they were not supporting the war.

#214296Post 18 of 42

[quote=delirious]...that's why I stick to making a [b]few[/b], [b]short[/b] posts per day.[/quote]

[quote=delirious]Is there some rule to only write short, ranty posts with no real data in them?[/quote]

Nah, just seems to me you've got a bad case of Kerryism. Say one thing, do another. Now keep contradicting yourself like a good liberal. :)

#214297Post 19 of 42

[quote=Civic_Zen] Obviously I'm speaking for the countries. Or maybe that wasn't obvious to you. 90% of people in Italy? Where did you get that poll? Your favorite site BBC, or the Guardian, either way its wrong. Italy HAS TROOPS fighting in Iraq with us. The people fighting were given a choice to do so or not and chose to fight.
[/quote]

And where did you get your information regarding European support?

Please enlighten me and make a list of european countries which supported the American invasion of Iraq.

As for Italian public support, the percantege is that high. So what if their troops are fighting with you? I'm not sure they will for very long. :mrgreen:

#214305Post 20 of 42

[quote=brakada]So what if their troops are fighting with you? I'm not sure they will for very long. :mrgreen:[/quote]

Yeah, we'll really miss all 50 of them. :roll:

The point is someone will always fight with us. But above all...if need be we'll fight on our own, dammit.

#214319Post 21 of 42

[quote=evangelion] Yeah, we'll really miss all 50 of them. :roll: [/quote]

Nope, 20 got killed in that terrorist attack, so I guess there're only 30 left. :lol: But Italians never were good soldiers, so why care. :wink:

[quote=evangelion] The point is someone will always fight with us. But above all...if need be we'll fight on our own, dammit.[/quote]

But why would you? I am sure (I am repeating this for a millionth time) that the United States could get a lot more of international support in funds and in military aid if Bush was a bit more patient and tried a little harder.

I simply can't understand why you like loosing your own money that much? Do you really want to do everything the hard way. :BangHead:

#214326Post 22 of 42

[quote=brakada][quote=Civic_Zen] Obviously I'm speaking for the countries. Or maybe that wasn't obvious to you. 90% of people in Italy? Where did you get that poll? Your favorite site BBC, or the Guardian, either way its wrong. Italy HAS TROOPS fighting in Iraq with us. The people fighting were given a choice to do so or not and chose to fight.
[/quote]

And where did you get your information regarding European support?

Please enlighten me and make a list of european countries which supported the American invasion of Iraq.

As for Italian public support, the percantege is that high. So what if their troops are fighting with you? I'm not sure they will for very long. :mrgreen:[/quote]

Well there's England :roll:

#214355Post 23 of 42

[quote=Galapidate]Well there's England :roll:[/quote]

England = our cute lil bitch. :lol:

#214373Post 24 of 42

i just wish stupid people weren't allowed to post, or speak in general, for that matter.

it just seems like everyone's motives are ill-founded and that man is inherently evil. you can't trust anyone but yourself these days.

liberal this, neo-con that. idealism, realpolitik. democrat, republican. people love to pigeon-hole and stereotype. there are more than two positions on any given subject.

jaded enough for my first post?

#214484Post 25 of 42

[quote=face] it just seems like everyone's motives are ill-founded and that man is inherently evil. you can't trust anyone but yourself these days. [/quote]

It [i]seems[/i] that man is inherently evil :lol: He is! That's why capitalism is so good.....it harness the greed of mankind with money....and then obliges him to behave in order to keep making it. All this noble humanity happy-dappy bullshit is such a load of crap. Human beings cannot do anything but satisfy their own desires. You're hungry, you eat. Youre horny, you fuck. You don't rape someone, only because you don't want jail or to be hated by everyone in our society. You don't kill someone because blood grosses you out and you don't want to be a murderer on death row. Even when you help people its because [b]you[/b] feel it is right or because it makes you happy to help others or because you are proliferating your ideologies. It is so deeply engrained in humanity that we don't even know it's there. Why do you get up in the morning? What makes you do homework you don't want to do? What makes you like blue better than red? A chemical reaction in your brain that your body works to replicate on a daily basis--its called self-interest. It's why Utopia doesn't exist, its why war is inevitable, its why people murder, it's why people are racist, it's why people behead.

You can either harness this power of nature and use it to help other people or you can harness it to improve only yourself. Life is almost always best when you exercise a fifty-fifty split imo.

Terrorists use it only for themselves and America uses it for both. That's why this Iraq debate is so heated in our country and why so many people get pissed. There are the idiots who believe mankind is good and flawless and beautiful and they blame the absence of Utopia on a right-wing conspiracy. There are the chivalrous conservatives who believe that our job is to control everyone to save them from us. Then there are the people who focus on inane shit......like whether or not Bush is a Nazi.....or how many days he spent on vacation. Then their are the emotional nit-wits who say stuff like "omfg people are dying....stop war now"--like death would stop if only we dropped everything and listened to simplistic wisdom. And then there are the 5%-10% of people sitting around trying to take in as much as they can and determine whether or not Iraq is more about us, or more about them, and then determine for themselves how much it should be for us, and how much it should be for them......and during their quiet internal analysis their are 6 billion people running around like Jerry's kids.

Get the picture. It's crazy. :mrgreen:

#214515Post 26 of 42

[quote=brakada]

But why would you? I am sure (I am repeating this for a millionth time) that the United States could get a lot more of international support in funds and in military aid if Bush was a bit more patient and tried a little harder.[/quote]

"Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has systematically and continually violated 16 United Nations Security Council resolutions over the past decade." [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/12/iraq.report/index.html?related[/url]

I think waiting 10 years for Saddam to comply to these resolutions [i]is [/i] being patient. France, Germany, and Russia were never going to vote in favor of going to war, so what is the U.S. supposed to do? Remember, a week or so ago Putin stated that Russia gave the U.S. intelligence of Saddam's intentions to attack the U.S. This was after 9/11 and before the war. I've said that about a million times too but no one wants to challenge it.

[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1155982/posts[/url] [url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C123051%2C00.html[/url] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warning/[/url]

#214576Post 27 of 42

[quote=evangelion][quote=delirious]...that's why I stick to making a [b]few[/b], [b]short[/b] posts per day.[/quote]

[quote=delirious]Is there some rule to only write short, ranty posts with no real data in them?[/quote]

Nah, just seems to me you've got a bad case of Kerryism. Say one thing, do another. Now keep contradicting yourself like a good liberal. :)[/quote]

I had some free time last night and decided to write a few longer posts.

[size=6]Now, again, why is this a big deal to you? Why do you care if I write longer posts? [/size]

[quote=gokada] "Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has systematically and continually violated 16 United Nations Security Council resolutions over the past decade." [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/12/iraq.report/index.html?related[/url] I think waiting 10 years for Saddam to comply to these resolutions [i]is [/i] being patient. [/quote]

By invading Iraq, the US was defying the UN charter, the Geneva Convention and Resolution 1441. Do other countries now have the right to invade the US for this non-compliance? [b]Do other countries have the right to invade Turkey and Israel for their non-compliance to far more UN resolutions? [/b] I thought only the Security Council could make those decisions (as per the UN Charter)

[quote]# The United Nations Charter and customary international law require States to seek peaceful resolutions to their disputes. Article 33 of the Charter states that[i] "The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall first of all seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements or other peaceful means of their own choice." [/i]

Under Article 51 of the Charter, States are only permitted to threaten or use force [i]"if an armed attack occurs"[/i] and only[i] "until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security."[/i]

In the case of an act of aggression or a threat to the peace, the United Nations Security Council is also required under the Charter (Article 41) to firstly employ "measures not involving the use of armed force." Only when such measures "would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate" (Article 42) can the Security Council authorize the use of force.[/quote]

[url]http://www.lcnp.org/global/LawyersandJuristsAppeal.htm[/url] [b] To quote the UN Charter:[/b] [quote]

To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

#[b] All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations[/b].[/quote] [url]http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/[/url]

Stop carrying on about how Iraq violated UN resolutions and international law. The US did [b]exactly [/b]the same thing with this invasion.

[quote][size=6]I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing.[/size][/quote] Richard Perl

#214582Post 28 of 42

Notice how no-one really tackled my original argument and instead ranted about other things.

[b]Let's see some proof that Bush is winning his "war on terror."[/b]

#214592Post 29 of 42

He got Saddam :lol: :lol:

I'll see the big one-up when and if Osama is captured...

#214623Post 30 of 42

Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...

Don't like that whole 'lil bitch' thing though!

Is this topic a bit like the war? America against the majority of the world???

I don't understand.... but maybe that's just me :shock:

#214635Post 31 of 42

[quote=maxman]Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...[/quote]

That's why nearly all of the pro-war parties of Europian states (including Britain, Spain and the Netherlands) lost significant votes in their last elections.

I agree that lots of countries supported the war but having most of the world opinion against such a war is not a victory in the war against terrorism. Especially since the war has been handled so badly.

[quote]Europe's leaders may be divided on the Iraq crisis, but the majority of people across the continent are united in their opposition to war, polls suggest. From Portugal to Russia, opinion surveys suggest that without a further UN resolution, most Europeans are overwhelmingly against war - and even a second resolution would not convince many of them. [/quote] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2747175.stm[/url]

If most of Europe and Africa's populations are against this war, imagine it's impact on Muslim populations and the impact on their opinions of the US. Making most of the world despise the US is NOT the way to win a war on terrorism. You need as many allies as possible. You need friends to share information and resources, not distrust you.

[quote]WASHINGTON, D.C., June 6 (OneWorld) - [b]A new, 20-country poll showing a sharp decline in positive attitudes towards the United States in the wake of Iraq War since just last summer has much of the Washington foreign policy community reeling. [/b] The poll, the latest in a series carried out by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, found a substantial drop in the percentage of Europeans who said they felt either somewhat or very favorable towards the United States and a much steeper plunge in favorable attitudes throughout the Islamic world, and especially in Arab countries.

[b]"The war has widened the rifts between Americans and Western Europeans, further inflamed the Muslim world, softened support for the war on terrorism, and significantly weakened global public support for the pillars of the post-World War II era--the UN and the North Atlantic Alliance," [/b]according to a narrative summary released with the report here Tuesday.

With the exception of Morocco, majorities in all of the predominantly Muslim countries, including even Kuwait, said they now feared that the United States might carry out a military attack against their nations, while majorities in every country surveyed, including Israel, said they thought the administration of President George W. Bush has sided with Israel against the Palestinians instead of being even-handed.

[b]Even more worrisome, solid majorities in the Palestinian Authority, Indonesia and Jordan--and nearly half of those in Morocco and Pakistan--said they have at least some confidence in Osama bin Laden to "do the right thing regarding world affairs." Conversely, support for the U.S. "war on terror" has declined sharply throughout the Muslim world. [/b]

"It's going to be a real challenge to turn Muslim opinion around," said Andrew Kohut, the Project director, about the findings in the eight Muslim countries covered in the survey which was released as Bush himself took part in a meeting with Arab leaders in Egypt.

The findings alarmed many foreign-policy analysts and former policy-makers. [b]"Something I never, ever thought I would see,"[/b] said former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright,[b] "is the fear of American power,"[/b] as illustrated by the results. Albright, who chaired an international board that advised the Project's implementation, also expressed concern about public attitudes in Washington's NATO allies. "For those of us who care about NATO, this is a red flag. The only way to get beyond this is to find more ways we can work together in NATO."

The report found that strong majorities, ranging from 57 percent in Germany to 76 percent in France, in five of seven NATO countries surveyed said they support a more independent relationship with Washington on diplomatic and security matters than has prevailed in the past.

"There is a growing resentment out there, and it cannot be in our interest to have much of the world hoping...that we're going to stumble," said Clyde Prestowitz, president of the Economic Strategy Institute and author of a new book on U.S. foreign policy entitled 'Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions.' "A superpower has to be super-sensitive."

[b]The poll, which was based on responses by some 16,000 respondents over the last month in five western European nations, Russia, eight predominantly Muslim countries, including the Palestinian Authority (PA), Israel, Brazil, Nigeria, Australia, South Korea, and Canada, found that approval of the United States has fallen in virtually every country, including in those, like Britain, that supported the U.S. in the war. [/b]

Favorability ratings were highest in Israel (79 percent) and Britain (70 percent) and lowest in Turkey (15 percent), Pakistan (13 percent), and Jordan and the PA, where only one percent of respondents said they had either very or somewhat favorable opinions of the U.S.

[b]Declines were sharpest in the Islamic world. In Indonesia, for example, only 15 percent expressed favorable opinions of the U.S., a precipitous plunge from 61 percent just last summer. [/b]

The declines, according to Kohut, did not begin in mid-2002. Pew has been monitoring global attitudes towards the US since just before Bush took office; between then and 2002 U.S. favorability ratings abroad have fallen in virtually every country covered by the survey. In Turkey, for example, the U.S. was considered favorably by a majority of 52 percent of respondents in 2000. The percentage dropped to 30 percent by mid-2000 and then plunged to 15 percent after the Iraq war.

[b]The new poll found generally high levels of support for U.S. political and cultural values compared to the policies and popularity of Bush himself. In Europe, in particular, respondents related their negative feelings towards the U.S. more to Bush than to "America in general." [/b]

But to some analysts, like Minxin Pei of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, those findings were no cause for comfort. [b]"Anti-Americanism is in large part generated by people who admire American values," he said. "It is the inconsistency (between values and performance) that is driving anti-Americanism abroad." [/b]

"The question of whether this kind of hypocrisy (that is perceived in U.S. conduct) isn't absolutely necessary given (Washington's) current role in the global system," according to Francis Fukuyama of the Johns Hopkins School for Advanced International Studies (SAIS). "It certainly is irritating to people."

Some analysts declared themselves heartened by the results. "I think there's new-found respect for American power," said Max Boot, a neo-conservative commentator at the Council on Foreign Relations. "I'd rather be respected than look weak and helpless as we did on September 12 (2001)" when many governments rallied to the side of the United States after the 9/11 attacks on New York and the Pentagon.

"World leadership is not about popularity," Danielle Pletka, another neo-conservative at the American Enterprise Institute, told Newhouse News. "The right thing is not always the popular thing."

Still others stressed that Washington needed to do more to communicate its good intentions. "There are a lot of people who are ill-informed," said Virginia Republican Sen. George Allen. "We have to continue our policies that will bring the advancement of freedom. We have to keep working on our message."

But others insist that the problem will not be solved through public diplomacy but rather by reconsidering basic policies. [b]"The United States needs to adopt a new policy that would use military force only as a last resort in the defense of truly vital national interests," [/b]said Ivan Eland of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington. [/quote] [url]http://pages.zdnet.com/trimb/id114.html[/url]

Is this a victory in the war against terrorism? I say not.

#214658Post 32 of 42

Delirious wrote:

[quote]maxman wrote: Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...

That's why nearly all of the pro-war parties of Europian states (including Britain, Spain and the Netherlands) lost significant votes in their last elections. [/quote]

I don't know which elections you're talking about but we had them some time ago (on the virge of the war actually) and the most pro-american political party (CDA) won and the most 'anti-war in Iraq' party (PvdA) lost and is not even in the government anymore after I believe 12 years of reigning...

One could argue it was at the start of the war and people were more pro than now. If we would have elections now, it'll probably turn out different. But that's not only due to the war and the Dutch support of it.

Your statement is incorrect anyway. :wink:

#214665Post 33 of 42

[quote=maxman]Delirious wrote:

[quote]maxman wrote: Holland / The Netherlands have always supported America as well...

That's why nearly all of the pro-war parties of Europian states (including Britain, Spain and the Netherlands) lost significant votes in their last elections. [/quote]

I don't know which elections you're talking about but we had them some time ago (on the virge of the war actually) and the most pro-american political party (CDA) won and the most 'anti-war in Iraq' party (PvdA) lost and is not even in the government anymore after I believe 12 years of reigning...

One could argue it was at the start of the war and people were more pro than now. If we would have elections now, it'll probably turn out different. But that's not only due to the war and the Dutch support of it.

Your statement is incorrect anyway. :wink:[/quote]

Sorry if I was wrong. I got that data from the following articles:

[quote]In the Netherlands, which also has troops in Iraq, Dutch opposition parties critical of the conflict made significant gains, with losses registered for parties in the conservative coalition government. However, Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende managed to stabilize the vote for his Christian Democrats, with his coalition partners suffering the heaviest losses. [/quote] [url]http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1877.cfm[/url]

[quote]European voters punished leaders in Britain, Italy and the Netherlands for getting involved in Iraq - but also turned their ire on the war's chief opponents German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and French President Jacques Chirac over local issues, projections showed Sunday.[/quote] [quote]Iraq also was an issue in The Netherlands, where the deployment of 1,400 troops was a key issue in Thursday's vote. Preliminary results showed gains for leftist opposition parties.[/quote] [url]http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2004/06/14/build/world/70-governing-parties.inc[/url] [url]http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/8917955.htm?1c[/url] [url]http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/04/06/14/wir_eu001.cfm[/url]

#214670Post 34 of 42

To delirious: no probs, just want a discussion based on facts (as far as I can oversee them), just like you.

I think these quotes are from the European elections, where the reigning governments got their asses kicked for several reasons (one of them being spending too much....).

From my point of view this is not representative for any local sentiment, as only around 30% of the voters go to the european elections (it's still too abstract for a lot of people).

The strange thing is that the same punishment was for German and French parties, that were against the war - but again, in my eyes it's not representative.

#214672Post 35 of 42

[quote=maxman] I think these quotes are from the European elections, where the reigning governments got their asses kicked for several reasons (one of them being spending too much....).

From my point of view this is not representative for any local sentiment, as only around 30% of the voters go to the european elections (it's still too abstract for a lot of people).

The strange thing is that the same punishment was for German and French parties, that were against the war - but again, in my eyes it's not representative.[/quote]

Well, since you're based in Europe (according to your profile), I have to accept you undoubtably have a much better understanding of Europian politics than me! Thanks for the heads-up :Smiley:

But nevertheless, according to nearly every single poll carried out worldwide, global opinion has always been against this war. Only recently has US opinion also shifted that way.

In my opinion, acting with such disregard for world opinion is an own-goal in the war against terror. To win such a war, you need the world with you, not against you and distrusting your intentions.

#214684Post 36 of 42

[quote=delirious] Well, since you're based in Europe (according to your profile), I have to accept you undoubtably have a much better understanding of Europian politics than me! Thanks for the heads-up :Smiley:

But nevertheless, according to nearly every single poll carried out worldwide, global opinion has always been against this war. Only recently has US opinion also shifted that way.

In my opinion, acting with such disregard for world opinion is an own-goal in the war against terror. To win such a war, you need the world with you, not against you and distrusting your intentions.[/quote]

The thing about world opinion is this, it says one thing to the pollsters and another thing at polling day. Certainly many European governments got their asses kicked a few weeks ago, but logically, the vast majority of this was not because of the war but because of the intrinisc position of European Unionism itself.

I'm not saying that the War in Iraq didn't effect the elections results, i'm just not convinced how relevant they were.

One thing living 34 years in the UK taught me, certainly from the British experience anyway, that mid term elections, be they local government or EU, usually pull out a protest about something or other, but when when it comes to National Governmental elections this protest voice is much quieter. As there is no democratically elected second house in the UK, the electorate like to keep the government of power on their toes with what they foolishly believe to be some type of check and balance mechanism. For clear proof of this you just have to look at the bashing the British conservatives got at a local level when they governed the country under Thatcher and Major. The fact that Blair's Labour party is getting a kicking now, towards the end of their second term, is by no means surprising.

#214693Post 37 of 42

to deleriously: you're right, I'm from Holland, but for my work I travel all over europe. Currently I'm in Prague, but tomorrow in Warsaw - it's hard for me to decide where I really LIVE. I'm about 1 day a week (average) in Holland, but do follow the stuff happening there. Your remarks about global opinion does make sense and for me it's sometimes hard to understand why certain action is taken. But maybe that'll always be the problem with politics.... :wink:

To davetlev: your remark is valid. Mid-term or whatever elections apart from the national one doesn't say a lot. In Holland we have the phenomenon of the so called 'floating voter'. It's about 30-40% of the voters that decide what to vote almost the second before they press the button on the voting machine.... :shock:

This makes polls normally highly unreliable....

#214758Post 38 of 42

[quote=delirious][quote=evangelion][quote=delirious]...that's why I stick to making a [b]few[/b], [b]short[/b] posts per day.[/quote]

[quote=delirious]Is there some rule to only write short, ranty posts with no real data in them?[/quote]

Nah, just seems to me you've got a bad case of Kerryism. Say one thing, do another. Now keep contradicting yourself like a good liberal. :)[/quote]

I had some free time last night and decided to write a few longer posts.

[size=6]Now, again, why is this a big deal to you? Why do you care if I write longer posts? [/size]

[/quote]

I don't. Just trying to see how long I can keep this going. Thanks for the laugh!!! :CrackUp:

#214759Post 39 of 42

[quote=maxman]to deleriously: you're right, I'm from Holland, but for my work I travel all over europe. Currently I'm in Prague, but tomorrow in Warsaw - it's hard for me to decide where I really LIVE. I'm about 1 day a week (average) in Holland, but do follow the stuff happening there. Your remarks about global opinion does make sense and for me it's sometimes hard to understand why certain action is taken. But maybe that'll always be the problem with politics.... :wink: [/quote]

nice job you got there... :wink: What do you do? Were you ever in Slovenia?

[quote=maxman] To davetlev: your remark is valid. Mid-term or whatever elections apart from the national one doesn't say a lot. In Holland we have the phenomenon of the so called 'floating voter'. It's about 30-40% of the voters that decide what to vote almost the second before they press the button on the voting machine.... :shock: This makes polls normally highly unreliable....[/quote]

Although it is almost impossible to discuss the election results (with Spain as an exception :lol: ), I'd like to ask you what is the public opinion in your country regarding the Iraq war?

To my knowledge here in Slovenia and the neighbouring countries Croatia, Austria and Italy, the public support is very low and judging on the news about other countries and anti-war protests and demonstrations, the support in other countries isn't that big either...

#214764Post 40 of 42

[quote=evangelion]I don't. Just trying to see how long I can keep this going. Thanks for the laugh!!! :CrackUp:[/quote]

I love intelligent debate :roll:

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