Another day another kidnapping.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3843155.stm[/url]

[size=6]Turks 'face beheading' in Iraq[/size] Suspected supporters of an al-Qaeda leader are threatening to behead three Turks taken hostage in Iraq, according to a report on al-Jazeera TV. Video footage aired by the Qatar-based station showed the three men surrounded by masked militants claiming to be linked to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

In an accompanying message they said Turkish firms must withdraw from Iraq within 72 hours or the men will die.

They also urged Turks to protest during the Nato summit in Istanbul.

The militants said Turkish citizens should stage demonstrations against the presence of US President George W Bush, who is already in Turkey in preparation for the meeting.

Top of the agenda for Mr Bush will be seeking the Nato alliance's help to stabilise Iraq.

Turkish workforce

A Turkish consular official in Baghdad, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the Associated Press that the three hostages had disappeared two days ago, but declined to give any further information.

Observers say the abductions are likely to fuel the already high anti-war sentiment in Turkey. The Nato member was opposed to the war and its troops are not part of the US-led occupation force in Iraq.

However, many Turkish contractors work as drivers and support staff for US forces there.

Al-Jazeera said the statement it received with the tape said the hostages would be killed unless "Turkish forces and companies that support the occupation forces in Iraq" left by the deadline.

In the video shown by the Qatar-based TV station the three Turks were kneeling in front of two black-clad gunmen, holding up their Turkish passports.

On the wall behind the group was a black banner bearing the words "Tawhid and Jihad", the name of Zarqawi's organisation.

Betrayal claims

Zarqawi's movement has already claimed responsibility for the beheading of two other hostages captured in Iraq - US man Nick Berg and South Korean hostage Kim Sun-il.

Both killings were filmed and the footage posted on Islamist websites.

The body of the murdered South Korean arrived in his hometown of Busan on Saturday.

About 6,000 people took part in a candlelight vigil in the South Korean capital, Seoul, in memory of the 33-year-old translator whose execution earlier this week shocked the nation and the world.

Mr Kim was working for a security company supplying the US military when he was abducted.

South Korea rejected demands from the kidnappers that it cancel plans to deploy 3,000 troops to northern Iraq.

Mr Kim's body was found on the road between Baghdad and Falluja on 22 June.

The hostage's family accused the government of betrayal for failing to secure his release.

This is really getting out of hand...

It shows you who were dealing with. It's not getting out of hand though. They've acted like this since the seventh century. They've only found out how to manipulate our press outlets in order to discourage the masses. The Iranians did this in the 1970's (ie dragging military personnel through the streets). The same can go with the Vietnamese winning the hearts and minds of the American people during the Vietnam war.

That's the only way they can win. And their doing a good job at it.

I wonder why they keep trying this stupid shit.. it hasnt worked yet and i fail to see when it will

thing is if u give into there demands how do u know they will give the hostages back???

[quote=TheOutsider]I wonder why they keep trying this stupid shit.. it hasnt worked yet and i fail to see when it will

thing is if u give into there demands how do u know they will give the hostages back???[/quote]

Our future hangs in the balance like a loose tooth. They will only be emboldened by our weaknesses. The past quarter century they've seen us fold unto their wishes regarding hostage situations, remote bombings, etc. They see us as the paper tiger.

Things have changed. We have a leader with nuts. Someone who realizes the intolerance of the enemy. We may in the future have to stoop to their level to defeat them. A contemperary writer said:

If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism. - Thomas Sowell

[url]http://www.freedomsnest.com/cgi-bin/qa.cgi?ref=sowtho[/url]

[quote=cosmo] If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism. - Thomas Sowell [/quote]

I agree completely. Trying to disarm Iraq by dropping bombs on it's population (killing 10,000+) and by authorising torture dogs against prisoners, against overwhelming world opinion and international law [b]IS [/b]barbaric.

The world looks forward to a civilised US president.

[quote=delirious][quote=cosmo] If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism. - Thomas Sowell [/quote]

I agree completely. Trying to disarm Iraq by dropping bombs on it's population (killing 10,000+) and by authorising torture dogs against prisoners, against overwhelming world opinion and international law [b]IS [/b]barbaric.

The world looks forward to a civilised US president.[/quote]

Um, wiping out an army by minimizing civilian casualties is barbaric? Fighting an insurgency, which most of the population admittedly does NOT support (see Ayatollah Sistani) is barbaric?

Do you even know what barbarians did, or who they were? Hint: look in the mirror! Barbarians were adept at lies and deception, and Liberally lying, you are. :YeaRight:
Now, you're trying to help your candidate, a noble goal (very debatable) that is not always achieved by noble means (an axiom in presidential compaigns). But the problem is, you and others like you are very unsubtle with you BS. You're spreading it way too thick. Kerry will not win, 'cause he has too many half-truths buoying his already failing campaign. Keep trying, tho! :ChatterB:

[quote=cosmo] We may in the future have to stoop to their level to defeat them. [/quote]

:crackup: :crackup:

And that would sure be civilised... :roll:

And as for the beheading. It's horrible, and slowly I'm getting sick of it. Hmm, why weren't there any decapitations before the campaign in Iraq had started? This must be a proof that the terrorists are getting weaker by the day. :roll:

I am a bit concerned that the US troops are simply not doing enough, to stop terrorists in Iraq. More terrorists are killed by their own bombs, than American bullets. And with every bomb a couple of innocent people die, too. And what do the coallition troops do? Nothing, Iraq is far from safe and almost nothing seems to be improving.

How do you propose US troops "stop" the beheadings? :?: By capitulating? Turkey didn't do it. Neither did South Corea. The fact that terrorists are resorting to these tactics speaks volumes about who US is dealing with (let's just say they don't value the sanctity of life as much as, ahem, others), and where they are (at their tether, because even their cause needs support from without, and beheadings certainly don't earn them points in the world opinion, even in Arab countries). So kudos to those who did not bow in the face of terror (or capitulate, a la Spain). :Bingo:

[quote=dohturdima][quote=delirious][quote=cosmo] If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism. - Thomas Sowell [/quote]

I agree completely. Trying to disarm Iraq by dropping bombs on it's population (killing 10,000+) and by authorising torture dogs against prisoners, against overwhelming world opinion and international law [b]IS [/b]barbaric.

The world looks forward to a civilised US president.[/quote]

Um, wiping out an army by minimizing civilian casualties is barbaric? Fighting an insurgency, which most of the population admittedly does NOT support (see Ayatollah Sistani) is barbaric? [/quote]

IMHO War is barbaric. Killing people is barbaric. Dropping illegal cluster bombs is barbaric.

[b]"Everything, everything in war is barbaric....But the worst barbarity of war is that it forces men collectively to commit acts against which individually they would revolt with their whole being." [/b] -Ellen Key, War, Peace and the Future

[quote=dohturdima] Um, wiping out an army by minimizing civilian casualties is barbaric? Fighting an insurgency, which most of the population admittedly does NOT support (see Ayatollah Sistani) is barbaric? [/quote]

Well, it was not the civilian casulties which were minimized, but it was the military casulties that were. Which is actually still the case. How many civilians (most of them are Iraq) die by the day because the coallition forces fail to provide enough security. All they are doing is watching their own asses. And well, most of the US POPULATION didn't elect Bush either, but you don't see anyone bombing the states, do you?

[quote=dohturdima] Do you even know what barbarians did, or who they were? Hint: look in the mirror! Barbarians were adept at lies and deception, and Liberally lying, you are. :YeaRight: [/quote]

Someone should look into their history books, before writing such an idiotic statement. :FuckOff: What the fuck do Barbarians have to do with lies and deception? Do YOU know who the Barbarians were?

[quote=dohturdima] Now, you're trying to help your candidate, a noble goal (very debatable) that is not always achieved by noble means (an axiom in presidential compaigns). But the problem is, you and others like you are very unsubtle with you BS. You're spreading it way too thick. Kerry will not win, 'cause he has too many half-truths buoying his already failing campaign. Keep trying, tho! :ChatterB:[/quote]

:ChatterB: :ChatterB: :ChatterB: :ChatterB:

Now, you're trying to help your candidate, a noble goal (very debatable) that is not always achieved by noble means (an axiom in presidential compaigns). But the problem is, you and others like you are very unsubtle with you BS. You're spreading it way too thick. [b]BUSH[/b] will not win, 'cause he has too many half-truths buoying his already failing campaign and presidency. Keep trying, tho! :ChatterB:

See, anyone's name can fit in here. It's just a matter of opinion. :lol:

Every country has a history of Barbarism. Even the US during the days of slavery, whereby slave lords would publically execute slaves by using various means such as, carstration, disembowling, whipped to death etc etc etc. The English, French all known for it. It's nothing new. Even South Africa with aparthied. Australia and the Aboriginies.

What these "freedom" fighters are trying to achieve is a "shock" factor. Trying to instill fear in the world, trying to make goverments bow to international terror so they can go about their evil, dark agendas without too much fuss. They know that the ordinary citerzen on the street will be reeling in complete and utter horror and lets face it - it is a most horrific sight to see a living man having his throat slit and head sawn off - I have now witnessed 3 beheadings and everyone of them will leave a very shocking image with me for the rest of my life. I cannot understand, nor can I comprehend - at what stage did we (humans) become like this, what kind of person can do such a thing to another human being - what level of brainwashing, hatred has that person undergone to wipe all concouisness away, wiped away in such a manner that without a blink of an eye he can simply saw off the head of an innocent man.

The thing that gets me is that these people are still alive. Recently in Afghan some Taliban fighters were captured and as an act of revenge the Afghan soldiers cut off THEIR heads - some might say it was a just thing but this just reiterates one thing - we heading back into the dark ages :(

The whole world should now rally TOGETHER and stop these obviously sick militant groups who simply have no regard for human life, TOGETHER we can make this world a safer place - the fact that we continously oppose each other just gives them militants more windows of oppotunities to wreak havoc.

[quote=brakada]See, anyone's name can fit in here. It's just a matter of opinion. :lol:[/quote]

That's why there is that thing in the cranium. You know, the one that thinks (hopefully), and is able to separate opinions from facts, spin from objective reporting, etc etc? :mrgreen: If a sizable enough majority are able to do that, then, chances are, all will be well. But, as history shows, it's not something that is inherently predictable. :roll:

[quote=delirious]IMHO War is barbaric. Killing people is barbaric. Dropping illegal cluster bombs is barbaric.[/quote]

Spin, spin and more spin. Tie completely unrelated, out of context statements and this is what we get. Brilliant as always. Goebbels would be proud. :RockOn:

[quote=dohturdima]How do you propose US troops "stop" the beheadings? :?: By capitulating? Turkey didn't do it. Neither did South Corea. [/quote]

Occupying a country can achieve nothing (or very little) when fighting terrorism. I know removing Sadam from power and "disarming" of Iraq was a good thing, but it did not stop the terrorists one bit. In fact there are more terrorists in Iraq, than there ever were. It sure cut a part of funding for Palestinian terrorists, but it did nothing to harm Al Quaeda. The US should start improving the conditions in Iraq, which is the key to the whole situation. I know this is a hard and a longlasting proccess, but a lot of mistakes were done. I wrote that on the old MS a couple of times, but I guess I 'll have to do it again:

1. Unless Bush's plan was to get all the terrorists in Iraq, which probably wasn't, the invading troops should have secured the countries borders and try to minimize people (especially terrorists) leaving the country illegally. Another thing which should have been done during or immediately after the war is, that as much weapons as possible should have been collected from the population. Of course, the country is flooding with armed terrorists and armed resistance, if the same country had one of the largest military arsenals in the middle East and almost all that weapons are still probably very accessible to everyone who would want to oppose the coallition forces.

2. Bush could have waited a bit longer. He could have finished/improved the situation in Afganistan first, before opening a new front. The whole campaign would have probably been a lot easier if more military and financial resources were allocated and if more international support was gathered (and no, don't tell me the diplomats wouldn't have been more successful if they had more time).

3. And the thing that bothers me most is that it seems to me as the whole campaign was centred on removing Sadam from power, the rebuilding of post-war Iraq (which should be the main objective) was on the side lane. Reconstruction of Iraq is slow and there are not many results to be seen. The security and living conditions of the population are alomst worse, than under the reign of Sadam.

All in all my point is, that the Iraq campaign was planned too carelessly and that the whole plan was a bit short-sightened. The conditions are becoming harder to improve by the hour and too few work is being done.

[quote=dohturdima] The fact that terrorists are resorting to these tactics speaks volumes about who US is dealing with (let's just say they don't value the sanctity of life as much as, ahem, others), and where they are (at their tether, because even their cause needs support from without, and beheadings certainly don't earn them points in the world opinion, even in Arab countries). So kudos to those who did not bow in the face of terror (or capitulate, a la Spain). :Bingo:[/quote]

Duh. Like anybody didn't know who we're dealing with and that terrorists are capable of such horrid actions. A person who is capable of planning and supporting of 9/11 (which is IMO a lot more barbaric and a lot worse than all the beheadings) is probably pretty much capable of doing everything.

[quote=dohturdima][quote=delirious]IMHO War is barbaric. Killing people is barbaric. Dropping illegal cluster bombs is barbaric.[/quote]

Spin, spin and more spin. Tie completely unrelated, out of context statements and this is what we get. Brilliant as always. Goebbels would be proud. :RockOn:[/quote]

Huh?

You wrote: [quote]Um, wiping out an army by minimizing civilian casualties is barbaric? Fighting an insurgency, which most of the population admittedly does NOT support (see Ayatollah Sistani) is barbaric? [/quote]

I replied by saying I think [b]war itself is barbaric.[/b]

I thought Iraq was part of the "war on terrorism". Are you now saying that fighting these insurgents is "unrelated" to war?

[quote=dohturdima] That's why there is that thing in the cranium. You know, the one that thinks (hopefully), and is able to separate opinions from facts, spin from objective reporting, etc etc? :mrgreen: [/quote]

With all the objective reporting we get these days, we're probably all (liberals, conservatives, socialists,...) a bunch of idiots (no offense intended), with statements based on our presumptions, rather than facts, fed to us by the media. But this is probably the best we can do, since we will probably never know everything or the absolute truth, nor will we be able to separate it from the flood of lies.

Especially, it is hard to talk about facts when discussing politics. After all most of politics relies on lies about yourself and telling the "truth" about your political opponents, thus twisting facts becomes very easy for all sides involved... But, that's just my opinion... :lol:

Er...the war on Iraq was NOT a "war on terrorism". It was on war on WMD and Saddam's regime. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

[quote=rhipkin]Er...the war on Iraq was NOT a "war on terrorism". It was on war on WMD and Saddam's regime. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.[/quote]

Well, according to Bush, it is. [quote]We're fighting on many fronts, and Iraq is now the central front. Saddam holdouts and foreign terrorists are trying desperately to undermine Iraq's progress and to throw that country into chaos. The terrorists in Iraq believe their attacks on innocent people will weaken our resolve. That's what they believe. They believe that America will run from a challenge. They're mistaken. Americans are not the running kind.[/quote] Bush talking about the War on Terror

[quote]He and other terrorists know that Iraq is now the central front in the war on terror. And we must understand that, as well.[/quote] [url]http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040524-10.html[/url]

Even if you don't believe what Bush said, it's a war alright. :cry:

[quote=rhipkin]Er...the war on Iraq was NOT a "war on terrorism". It was on war on WMD and Saddam's regime. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.[/quote]

Sadly, the Bush administration made sure that Iraq now is a part of the war on terrorism... :(

Yes they fighting terrorist in Iraq, Iraq is not the war on terrorism....anyway Bush will say anything to draw attention away from his failings ;)

<---Not a Bush fan :(

[quote=rhipkin]Yes they fighting terrorist in Iraq, Iraq is not the war on terrorism....anyway Bush will say anything to draw attention away from his failings ;)[/quote]

Now I agree with that!

I was arguing with a Bush-defender who was trying to argue that war is "unrelated" to fighting the insurgents. I was using his leader's own words against him.

Anyway, even if you don't link Iraq to the war on terror, it's definately a war, which disproves his point.

"It's low-intensity conflict in our doctrinal terms, [b]but it's war however you describe it[/b]" John Abizaid, Head of US Central Command

Yes it is war no matter how you look at it. War IS barbaric, war is the complete degradation of human diginty, rights and morality. It is wrong in every sense of the word, we as Human Beings are the custodians of this planet, we meant to be looking after it and as a reward we can live off it - until some twat got too greedy.

I was totally opposed to the initial war in Iraq, purely because I could see the outcome before it happened. I argued on many boards about how a new war would be fought after the crushing of Saddam's army, I knew that terrorism and brutuality would raise it's ugly head - the middle east is know for it's militant's and fanatism but everyone argued back saying - no ways it's over Iraq is free!!!

I'm praying everyday, everyday that this senseless murder and brutal beheadings stop. I fought in a war. I was Special Forces South African Infantry - I fought in Angola and Mozambique I know first hand at the brutality of war, how quickly you lose respect for your foe, you see them as non human - you lose your morality......

......pointless