This is an attempt to dismantle everything which Michael Moore stands for. In this thread, I will be giving you reasons why you too, should discredit this man. Or at the very least, understand him. That doesn't sound like a lot, but most people have no clue as to what this man actually stands for. This is even more important if you are an American.

[b][size=5]Michael Moore is Not Telling You the Whole truth[/size][/b]

This is not to say that he always blatantly lies. Its more about twisting the facts, and giving the viewer half truths, or manipulating the context of each issue so that it comes accross entiretly different then what it would if you were given the whole story. Just remember one important thing as you read this, there are TWO sides to every story, that is a very important rule and one which will serve you very well throughout your life.

Michael Moore is a masterful film maker, yes that is a compliment. He is very good at what he does, which is pretty much what I described in the paragraph above. But Michael Moore is a documentarian, he makes documentaries. And contrary to whatever you may think, the majority of his viewers go into the films he makes thinking it is all true because of this, or at least mostly true. Those that are into his idea's, or politics in general, often times go do more research on the issues and realize this about him, whether they are fans of his or wish death upon him. But they are the minority, most will never research the other side of things.

So the main point that I'm trying to bring accross with all this is: [b]Before you accept what you see in his latest film F9/11, or any of his works, I urge you to just go out and do some research yourself. See if what you find matches what you were told in his movie, and go into this with an open mind. Whether you are liberal or conservative, or neither, you owe it to yourself and you country to learn about his agenda and his beliefs[/b] a lot of which I will go into here, but don't take this as gospel, remember, explore the issues.

[b][size=5]Michael Moore Manipulates Victims[/size][/b]

Moore held a screening of Bowling for Columbine in Littleton, Colorado for the families of Columbine victims, where he charged admission.

• Columbine mother Anne Hetcher "Its laughable that Michael Moore attempts to portray himself as an anti-astablishment liberal who is the voice of the common man, when in fact he is no better then the greedy capitalists he shuns. Maybe now that he has made millions of dollars off the blood of our children, he could toss a DVD or two our way to view."

• Mark Taylor, one of the victims that Moore took to K-Mart for the film, describing Moore. "I am completely against him, he screwed me over. I had no idea what Moore's adenda was. And he had an agenda, he had it all planned out. I believe that every American has the right to own a gun. We should have the right to protect ourselves."

I, for one, may have a little better understanding then most regarding what happened at Columbine. I live in Denver, Colorado, and attended High School no more then 2 miles away from Columbine. I had many friends that knew people who were involved one way or another, and knew one of the victims myself. She was a great person, and lost her life tragically. However, I had a chance to speak with her mother some years after the incident. And she told me she felt the exact same way as the two people I quoted above. Columbine was a tragedy, and Moore was only in it for the money.

[b][size=5]Michael Moore thinks American's are Stupid[/size][/b]

Moore has two personalities. In America, he plays the role of "hero for the common American". But when he is in other countries, he criticizes and insults the very same group of American's he claims to be the role model for. The common man.

• To the German fans, Moore asked "Should such an ignorant people (American's) rule the world."

• When a Japanese interviewer remarked that Moore did not appear to like America very much, he said "I like America to some extent."

• In England, regarding American intelligence, "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet."

• When in Canada. "Just for my own mental health, I need to go sit in a room with 600 canadians and watch my movie."

And you think this is a man that respects you enough, as American common men and women, to tell you the unbridled truth??

[b][size=5]Is Fahrenheit 9/11 Factually Accurate[/size][/b]

Two points that have already been discussed, but I will post again here.

• Moore states that the Bush administration arranged for special flights (at a time when all flights were grounded) for the bin Laden family to get out of America right after 9/11. The whole truth is that only one man was responsible, Richard Clark who was indeed part of the Bush administration, but has since been decommissioned. And prior to that, was a huge Bush supporter, but since has actually written books criticizing him and his former co-workers. The point is that he ALONE was responsible for what happened, and was probably part of the reason behind his dismissal.

• Moore states that Bush attacked Afgahnastan for the main reason of building an oil pipeline through the country. This is one of the most downright retarded statements in the whole film, as we all know that bin Laden and al Quada were responsible for 9/11 and that this is where they call home. As of today, there has been no such pipeline built. Nor is there any plan and/or contract that suggest that one will ever be built. Its actually one of the few statements in this film that can be entirely dismissed.

I'm sure there will be more things to learn, and facts that he twisted once the film comes out and more political people see it. For now, this is reason enough to know that Moore is exactly what most people see him for.

Last but not least.

[b][size=5]Moore hates Small Business America[/size][/b]

Do you own a small business? Have plans to start one? Or work for one maybe?

• Moore on small businesses in Flint, Michigan "You know in my town, the small businesses that everyone wanted to protect? They were the people who supported all the right-wing groups. They wee the Rupublicans in the town, they were the Kiwanas, the chamber of commerce - People that kep the talk all white. The small hardware salesman, the small clothing store salesman. Fck all these small businesses, fck em all. Bring in the chains. The small business people are the rednecks that run the towns and suppress the people. F`ck them all. Thats how I feel."

And yet I thought the modern day liberal was against big business, and for the little man. The little man is the small business owner there Michael. You are so ass backwards and hypocritical on all your statements.

[b][size=5]Find Out the Truth[/size][/b]

Chances are you have never heard any of the quotes listed here. This is because the vast majority of the major media agree with Moore's viewpoints, and will do nothing to challenge them. There are however various online resourrces at your disposal.

I said this was the most important part, so if you take nothing else out of this, just do the research yourself. You will notice what I'm talking about. You will also notice that nothing written here was taken out of context, or twisted like Moore loves to do.

Fahrenheit 9/11 ends with Moore telling you to "Do Something." I couldn't agree more. :Bingo:

:RockOn: :Bingo:

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

I'm not going to write some long-winded article in defence of Michael Moore because I don't think much of him myself.

However, some inaccuracies in this post should be pointed out:

[quote=Civic_Zen]

• Moore states that the Bush administration arranged for special flights (at a time when all flights were grounded) for the bin Laden family to get out of America right after 9/11. The whole truth is that only one man was responsible, Richard Clark who was indeed part of the Bush administration, but has since been decommissioned. And prior to that, was a huge Bush supporter, but since has actually written books criticizing him and his former co-workers. The point is that he ALONE was responsible for what happened, [b]and was probably part of the reason behind his dismissal.[/b] [/quote]

That doesn't make what Michael Moore said factually inaccurate. At most you could say he should've been more specific in order not to mislead people.

There's no evidence to support your allegations that Richard Clark resigned just before the Iraq war because of the plane authorisation.

[quote=Civic_Zen]

• [b]Moore states that Bush attacked Afgahnastan for the main reason of building an oil pipeline through the country. [/b] This is one of the most downright retarded statements in the whole film, as we all know that bin Laden and al Quada were responsible for 9/11 and that this is where they call home. [b]As of today, there has been no such pipeline built. Nor is there any plan and/or contract that suggest that one will ever be built. Its actually one of the few statements in this film that can be entirely dismissed.[/b] [/quote] [quote][size=6]Central Asia pipeline deal signed[/size]

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38632000/jpg/_38632029_canasmap300.jpg[/img]

Friday, 27 December, 2002

[b]An agreement has been signed in the Turkmen capital, Ashgabat, paving the way for construction of a gas pipeline from the Central Asian republic through Afghanistan to Pakistan. [/b] The building of the trans-Afghanistan pipeline has been under discussion for some years but plans have been held up by Afghanistan's unstable political situation.

This follows a summit meeting bringing together the presidents of the three countries last May when the project received formal go-ahead.

The pipeline would represent the first major foreign investment in Afghanistan in many years.

[b]Alternate route[/b]

With improved regional security after the fall of the Taleban about a year ago, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Pakistan have decided to push ahead with plans for the ambitious 1,500-kilometre-long gas pipeline.

The leaders of the three countries have now signed a framework agreement defining the legal aspects of setting up a consortium to build and operate the pipeline.

[b]The trans-Afghanistan pipeline would export Turkmen gas via Afghanistan to Pakistani ports, from where it could reach world markets.[/b]

India is the largest potential buyer and the Afghan President, Hamid Karzai, said Delhi was welcome to join the project.

Turkmenistan has some of the world's greatest reserves of natural gas, but still relies on tightly controlled Russian pipelines to export it.

Ashgabat has long been desperate to find an alternative export route.

[b]Wary investors[/b]

Afghanistan would profit by receiving millions of dollars in transit fees and construction of the pipeline would provide thousands of desperately needed jobs.

It is also hoped such a project would boost regional economic ties and pave the way for further foreign investment.

The chief difficulty will be actually finding the money to build the pipeline.

The Asian Development Bank is carrying out a study for the project.

But investors will be very cautious about putting serious money into Afghanistan when the central government in Kabul still has only limited influence in the regions the pipeline would cross. [/quote]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2608713.stm[/img]

Something is wrong with the two people on the manipulation section, especially the victim of Columbine. If someone got permanently handicapped the rest of their life because of guns, any sane person would be protesting for gun regulation. As for the comment by the woman, so? Mel Gibson made millions off of Christ's last hours, so how come that didn't spark huge controversy?

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Civic_Zen]- Moore on small businesses in Flint, Michigan "You know in my town, the small businesses that everyone wanted to protect? They were the people who supported all the right-wing groups. They wee the Rupublicans in the town, they were the Kiwanas, the chamber of commerce - People that kep the talk all white. The small hardware salesman, the small clothing store salesman. Fck all these small businesses, fck em all. Bring in the chains. The small business people are the rednecks that run the towns and suppress the people. F`ck them all. Thats how I feel."[/quote]

Yeah this kind of thing chaps my ass. Michael Moore claims he supports small businesses but he also said on the O'Reilly show that he believed the highest tax bracket should be 70%. :FuckOff: Small business owners (sole proprietors) pay taxes based upon their income level. Good luck ever living above the status of pauper if you want to grow your small business. But then again i guess that's what being a liberal is all about......making sure people receive no reward for smart entreprenuership other than grief and high taxes.

No delirious i don't have a link to the O'Reilly manuscript.....but i'll try to find one :roll:

[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38632000/jpg/_38632029_canasmap300.jpg[/img]

Now this story is kind of interesting. I mean if anything i would be more happy with Bush if he accomplished this while slaying Osama's henchmen and destroying the Taliban. It's something perhaps that should be investigated, but i think that getting rid of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda isn't an ignoble effort if we help three poor countries develop something they can grow an economy around.

I mean honestly, the only thing that makes Moore's arguments so powerful is the fact that Bush hasn't been boasting about our success. Normally, you attack a region and then you spend money rebuiding afterwards. Slowly the economy recovers after 5 or maybe 10 years. But with Bush, the rebuilding is profitable the day after fighting stops and sometimes before. Not only is that good for them, but it is good for us and our global reputation as well. 8)

If Bush said "We kicked the shit out of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and the region has now been able to push through a new deal that will help rebuild their economies", i don't think most people would have cared.

Honestly, the more stuff i see about Moore's movie, the more proud i am of our special ops, strategic planners, and Bush's unabashed behavior. I think he is the first President since TR who has said he's going to kill bad guys and enjoy it. The very thought of giving up the war on terror because it might actually benefit us is just insane.

Sure, when war benefits you, you have to be on guard to make sure that you don't start attacking people who don't deserve it ......Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein don't fall under that category :lol: They have been asking for it for years now and Bush is finally taking out the trash.

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=mylexicon] No delirious i don't have a link to the O'Reilly manuscript.....but i'll try to find one :roll: [/quote]

:lol:

Well at least you told us where the info came from :wink:

A link to an article re. Moore film:

[url]http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/?GT1=3584[/url]

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=mylexicon]I mean honestly, the only thing that makes Moore's arguments so powerful is the fact that Bush hasn't been boasting about our success. [size=6]Normally, you attack a region and then you spend money rebuiding afterwards. Slowly the economy recovers after 5 or maybe 10 years. But with Bush, the rebuilding is profitable the day after fighting stops and sometimes before. Not only is that good for them, but it is good for us and our global reputation as well.[/size] 8) [/quote]

Really?

[quote]One day after President Bush gave the nation a cautious view of rebuilding efforts in Iraq, [b]senior administration officials for the first time acknowledged that they vastly underestimated the damage to the country's infrastructure and greatly overestimated the amount of oil revenue that could be used to help rebuild the war-torn country.[/b] Yesterday's sobering assessments came as members of Congress are contemplating Bush's request for $87 billion to stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan -- and call into question earlier pronouncements by administration officials about the size and cost of the job.

The disclosures, coming on the heels of Bush's prime-time address, mark the administration's strongest acknowledgment to date that it failed to fully comprehend the complexities of rebuilding Iraq.

Years of neglect by deposed president Saddam Hussein left the country's infrastructure in much worse shape than anyone imagined, one administration official said.[b] And current oil revenue estimates of $12 billion this year and $40 billion in 2005 and 2006 will be less than half what administration officials previously told Congress would be available to offset US costs to rebuild the country.[/b][/quote] [url]http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/09/09/bush_aides_admit_iraq_missteps/[/url]

[quote=Galapidate]Something is wrong with the two people on the manipulation section, especially the victim of Columbine. If someone got permanently handicapped the rest of their life because of guns, any sane person would be protesting for gun regulation. [/quote]

You have no idea what your talking about Galapidate. As I stated in the post, I know people, [b]personally[/b], that were affected by the tragedy which still believe that we have the right to own guns to protect ourselves. In fact, it may have reaffirmed there beliefs. I think there is something wrong with you for thinking that you actually have any understanding, whatsoever, about what happened and how it affected the people involved.

Only the naive truly believe that by guns becoming illegal, will it hinder any criminals from getting them. This is one of the biggest things I hate Moore for. Someday, maybe guns will be outlawed in America, and then you will truly understand what I'm talking about.

The only other time in American history that the Constitution was ammended, was when we decided prohibition was a good idea. At no time, was alchohol in this country more abundent then during that time period. It will be exactly like that if an American's rights to own a gun is ammended in the constitution. When that happens, I, [b]myself[/b], will be one of the many figuring out how to make guns in my bath tub.

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=delirious] [url]http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/09/09/bush_aides_admit_iraq_missteps/[/url][/quote]

A Taxachussets newpaper criticizing george bush??!!!! :o No way! Wait where is John Kerry from again?

Try again.

Bad forecasts simply means we have more work to do making sure we get Iraqi oil production up. [b]Besides they missed forecasts, which means this war won't be profitable for [i]us[/i], Iraq is still making money!!!!!. This war wasn't supposed to be about making us money, remember?[/b] This is about turning Iraq around.

Damn liberals have got their balls dangled over every barbed wire fence in America. Every dollar you spend helping other people that ends up benefitting you will make you more and more a hypocrit. Every time you gripe about gas prices you put oil before other ideologies. You want the President to be a man with international connections and appeal. Then you find out all his buddies live in the Middle East and they are all "terrorists". If thats not about as stereotypical as it gets i don't know what is........if the media ever gives up on you, youre fucked.

Thank god i vote for a party of people who acknowledges the inherent flaws in mankind and works hard to make sure they are kept to a minimum. There is very little self-righteous narcissism in Bush's administration, he is just as flawed as every other person on earth. Yet, Liberals seem to be surprised by the fact he is not perfect like Clinton or Gore. :lol:

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Civic_Zen]

[b][size=5]Michael Moore is Not Telling You the Whole truth[/size][/b][/quote]

But Bush is? You seem to have such a problem with Moore's lies, spin and distortions, yet you take everything you President says as the truth. You have to be pretty naive to think politicians are honest. Have you ever examined your government with the same level of scrutiny as you have for a guy who makes movies? Seems to me the president has more influence over our lives than Moore.

Until you decide to stop being a complete hypocrite, spare me the sanctimonious bullshit.

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Kobe]Seems to me the president has more influence over our lives than Moore. [/quote]

If you want the media to get even worse than it already is.....just keep it up. The media wants you to believe that the commander in chief of the armed forces, whose soul purpose is to control foreign policy and sign legislation [b]that Congress makes up[/b], has complete control over everything, no wonder you're a liberal. You vote for some figurehead to eliminate your imaginary problems so that you can live your entire lives with the inherent wisdom of a child. The media controls people these days and how they feel about things. You either buy into it or you turn your back on it. The President could kill 2 billion people and as long as the media never reports it......it would never affect your day to day activities. They are an amoral lot on a moral crusade and Moore is one of their unwitting patsies. He spews about how much the media sucks. The media puts it on the air and makes an assload of money. The more the show it, the more people hate the media and the more they feel compelled to watch it :lol:

It is one of the grandest business operations i have ever seen in my life. Distributing slanderous information about [b]yourself[/b] while reaping huge profit. The only place people can come for more slanderous hate filled propaganda, is back to you :lol: Fucking Rich!

The dems do the same thing, they teach you to care about what happens to other people so that they benefit. Imagine what would happen if Dems started saying "We have a problem with poverty and pollution and it is up to each individual to uphold his/her patriotic duty to this country by doing everything in their power to make sure the problem is alleviated." All of a sudden nobody cares about voting for the democratic party because the power to fix America's problems lies in the hands of the people.......where it has always lain. Dems are hell bent on making you feel helpless, repulsed, and spiteful so that they reap the political rewards of controlling the government. They want to be the ones to solve America's problems because they don't believe the average American can do it. Bush believes the average American can solve his or her own problems; but he knows the media is working against him every step of the way.......

The media has turned killing/capturing terrorists, liberating Iraqis, enforcing U.N. policy, lifting sanctions and debt from Iraqi shoulders, capturing Saddam, and offering a chance for democracy into a bad thing.

I have no fucking idea how they did it, but i guess they are that fucking good at what they do.

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Kobe][quote=Civic_Zen]

[b][size=5]Michael Moore is Not Telling You the Whole truth[/size][/b][/quote]

But Bush is? You seem to have such a problem with Moore's lies, spin and distortions, yet you take everything you President says as the truth. You have to be pretty naive to think politicians are honest. Have you ever examined your government with the save level of scrutiny as you have for a guy who makes movies? Seems to me the president has more influence over our lives than Moore.

Until you decide to stop being a complete hypocrite, spare me the sanctimonious bullshit.[/quote]

Why is it that you liberal pri<ks have such a tendancy to be so presumptuous?

1 - If you dont like the sanctinonious bullshit then go to another thread. This thread isn't for the week minded media whore.

2 - You obviously didn't read the whole thread because I intended in no way of force feeding you sh~t like the media does for you. Obviously you like to be spoon fed, but I made it clear that this is for informational purposes only.

3 - I don't know why its so hard for people here to understand, but Michael Moore is hated by EVERYONE who knew anyone that was part of the Columbine tragedy. This is an issue LONG before Bush's time, and long before most on this board ever stopped to think about it. I guess its too hard for you to understand that BLAMING an entire COUNTRY and its policies even though it is the best country on earth, for the tragedies that have occured is completely detrimental to their memory.

4 - I IN NO WAY take everything Bush says and establish it with the truth. Just like you said, all politician's lie. I know that going in, I know that Bush will probably lie even if he, himself isn't aware that it is a lie. I expect that from the government which is why I believe the government should be limited in power as much as possible.

The difference is that Moore is looked at, not as a politician, but as a documentarian. Which he is not. He is 10 times worse then any politician in Washington, and if you can't see that then I could give a f~ck less. Obviously you just listen to whatever CNN is telling you and leave it at that, because you have no idea what your talking about.

5 - Where in the hell do I even mention Bush? Let alone that I believe everything he says? Your putting words in my mouth. Your just being slanderous to be a pri<k or something. This thread has nothing to do with Bush at all.

6 - Moore has much more control over the American People, actually the entire world, then Bush does. The People elect the representatives for Congress, Congress has to approve anything and everything Bush wants to do. Congress approved the war in Iraq, thus the people approved the war in Iraq because they elected Congress. This goes for everything Bush does. He wants to ban gay marriages, actually, he wants to AMMEND the Constitution of the United States with a law banning gay marriages. THAT LAW WILL NEVER PASS. Why? Because Congress has to approve it, and from what I understand its already been long since shot down.

The only thing the president has control of, is in an emergency situation, he can push the red button. Thats it. Everything else he wants to do has to be approved. Entirely, by the people, in a matter of speaking, through their elected officials.

..

Easy there guys, no need to get all hot under the collar. Let's leave the name calling aside, I'm trying to have a debate, not a flame war. I never try to be a pri<k, it comes quite naturally, thank you! :twisted:

So you are going to run to your text books and quote to me how the government is supposed to work, completely ignoring the reality of situation. I guess you've never heard that the administration spends many a late night calling congressmen soliciting/using political pressure to influence the fate of a bill. I don't supposed you believe they do that without the president's knowledge or consent, or have you been watching the Iran-Contra hearings lately? :lol:

The assertion that a filmmaker has more power than the leader of the free world is a bit far fetched. That was a lovely diatribe about the media, and I agree with most of it, but let's not put the cart before the horse. The media are only the commentators, it is the government who are the players on the field. And we should be glad for the 4th estate... it is pretty necessary in a system currently operating with no checks and balances. Is the media perfect? No. Do we need them? Yes.

I did not read the thread, I apologize for that. Civic, forgive me for thinking you take Bush's side on most issues, where did I ever get that idea? I guess my comments are off topic for this thread, but the point still stands: one either accepts lies and distortions, or not.

If you don't think that an elected public servant, who is sworn into office doesn't have more responsibility and culpability to you than a guy with a camera, then I suggest you rethink that one. I see it as the opposite: nobody believes the media, discredit the source is the new favorite game in our society. OTOH, clearly we have people in this country who trust their chosen political party implicitly.

[quote=Kobe] I did not read the thread, I apologize for that. Civic, forgive me for thinking you take Bush's side on most issues, where did I ever get that idea? I guess my comments are off topic for this thread, but the point still stands: one either accepts lies and distortions, or not. [/quote]

I don't agree with Bush about most things he has done. I DO agree with Iraq, and I DO agree with the largest tax cut in history, which he did at the start of his term. Thats pretty much it. Everything else he has tried to do, and which has failed miserably in Congress I might add, I disagree with.

Since most everyone on this board likes to just assume I support Bush on everything, instead of just the War in Iraq, then I will make a list now, of all the issues that I'm concerned with, where Bush stands on them and what I think of that.

[b]Abortion[/b] - Bush Signed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. Opposes abortion. Would allow exceptions in cases of life-threatening risk, incest and rape. The country is not ready for a constitutional amendment.

• I pretty much agree with this. Partial birth is pretty screwed up, although I am a bit undecided as far as abortion as a whole.

[b]Gay Marriage[/b] - We all know where he stands on this. Opposes gay marriage. Has called for a constitutional amendment defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

• I am undecided on this issue, at least 100%. But in no way should the consitution be ammended for this crap, so I disagree with where he stands.

[b]War on Terror[/b] - Led 2001 war in Afghanistan to end rule of Taliban regime and Al Qaeda bases. War in Iraq was part of War on Terror. Supported measure which helped cut off money to terrorists.

• This is where I love Bush. I understand that some of you disagree, and thats your perogative. However, I don't think Kerry has any balls at all, or he wouldn't mind having some people actually disagree with him. Instead he tries to have a stance on everything, and changes it if he thinks the majority of America disagrees with him. No sence of himself. This is also the most important thing to me in life right now, because I think Colorado is a prime target. NORAD and all.

[b]Defense[/b] - Supports focus on countering terrorism. Increase military spending. Wants to increase military pay and develop effective missile defenses.

• Again I agree with Bush. So we are 3 to 1 now, but now I'll get into the things I disagree with Bush on.

[b]Drug War[/b] - Has set goals to help reduce youth drug use. Opposes legalization of marijuana. Supports working with foreign governments to stem the flow of illicit drugs.

• Screw Bush on this. The War on drugs is costing American's money for no reason at all. Marijuana should be legalized for medical purposes if nothing else, period. The war on drugs does not do a damn thing to stem the flow of illicit drugs, and hasn't done anything for the 30 years its been happening.

[b]Faith-based Initiatives[/b] - Supports federal funding of faith-based programs. Calls on Congress to pass the Faith and Community Based Initiative.

• F`ck Bush again. I hate Christians, I hate Jerry Folwell even more then I hate Michael Moore. I'm not willing to pay taxes so people can further their faith.

[b]Gun Control[/b] - Would re-authorize the assault weapons ban. Supports closing the gun show loophole

• I completely agree with him on this. We need to better the legislation against guns which we already have.

[b]Immigration[/b] - Does not believe unfair rewards should be given to illegal immigrants. Supports creating a new temporary worker program that will match foreign workers with willing American employers. But he also proposed a plan to make all illegal aliens here, legal.

• I disagree with most of his feelings on this. Especially making all illegal aliens legal. Other parts of his stance I agree with, but not entirely.

[b]Patriot Act[/b] - Signed the USA Patriot Act into law. Proposes further changes in law to remove obstacles to investigating and prosecuting terrorism.

• I pretty much hate the Patriot Act, but I see it as a necessary evil, just like Bush himself, and the government as a whole. Its only temporary though.

[b]Stem Cell Research, and Cloning and such[/b] - Last I heard, he is against any and all of this.

• Screw that. This is because of his Christian based faith that he has this stance. I completely disagree with him on all of these things.

Okay. So lets tally here.

Agree - War on Terror, Defense, Gun Control = 3 Disagree - Faith, Stem Cell, Drug's, Gay Marriage = 4 Undecided or two close to call = Immigration, Patriot Act. Abortion

I'd say it looks pretty dead even there. But there are more things I disagree with Bush on. Bare in mind this is jut the major things important to me. Social Security, Agriculture, and many other things were left out. Otherwise there would be a lot more things that I disagree with him on, then agree.

Now I can refer anyone and everyone to this post anytime they start making assumptions.

Okay, we have you on record now. You better make this post a favorite so you can make sure where you stand before posting. :P :mrgreen:

Since you support the war, do you feel Bush has been 100% upfront and honest with the American people (within the bounds of national security) about the war, both leading up to and during?

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=mylexicon][quote=delirious] [url]http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/09/09/bush_aides_admit_iraq_missteps/[/url][/quote]

A Taxachussets newpaper criticizing george bush??!!!! :o No way! Wait where is John Kerry from again?

Try again. [/quote]

Thanks for admitting you dismiss conflicting sources without even doing a quick search yourself.

[quote] Mr Carney, a former American ambassador with decades of experience in post-conflict zones, spent eight weeks in Iraq trying to get the ministry of industry and minerals up and running.

[b]US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, speaking during a visit to London, admitted the government had overestimated the state of Iraq's infrastructure and found it far worse than expected.

She said Iraq was well below third world standards, even in the cities.

Ms Rice said rebuilding Iraq and creating institutions to govern the country was hindered by the fact that Iraq was a "traumatised" country, which had suffered 30 years of possibly the most brutal regime of the 20th Century. [/b][/quote] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3021632.stm[/url]

Need me to find some more?

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Civic_Zen] [b][size=5]Michael Moore thinks American's are Stupid[/size][/b]

Moore has two personalities. In America, he plays the role of "hero for the common American". But when he is in other countries, he criticizes and insults the very same group of American's he claims to be the role model for. The common man.

• To the German fans, Moore asked "Should such an ignorant people (American's) rule the world."

• When a Japanese interviewer remarked that Moore did not appear to like America very much, he said "I like America to some extent."

• In England, regarding American intelligence, "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet."

• When in Canada. "Just for my own mental health, I need to go sit in a room with 600 canadians and watch my movie."

And you think this is a man that respects you enough, as American common men and women, to tell you the unbridled truth?? [/quote]

[size=6]Civic_Zen thinks 90% of Viewers are Uneducated[/size]

[quote=Civic_Zen] [size=6]So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it, will take it that it was Bush's fault.[/size] [/quote] [url]http://www.mercuryserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=1031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=18[/url]

Hmmm...

Michael Moore is a cunt!

[quote=Civic_Zen][b]Drug War[/b] - Has set goals to help reduce youth drug use. Opposes legalization of marijuana. Supports working with foreign governments to stem the flow of illicit drugs.

• Screw Bush on this. The War on drugs is costing American's money for no reason at all. Marijuana should be legalized for medical purposes if nothing else, period. The war on drugs does not do a damn thing to stem the flow of illicit drugs, and hasn't done anything for the 30 years its been happening. [/quote]

I pretty much have the same view of Bush and his policies (except abortion, which should be completely legal IMO). You're wrong about medicinal use of MJ - it is actually used quite extensively in medicine(Marinol) in near every state. And re. war on drugs, I disagree with you as well - a lot of money has been and is being funneled to prevention and rehab programs (rather than NARCS, like in the 80's and 90's) to make a huge difference. I know this because I work with people who are in the field. Drugs will always be a problem, as long as there are people willing to take them regardless of the consequences. The curring direction is targeting the potential and existing users more than the supply, which is the proper way to approach this. Making the drugs easly available, given the un-preparedness of large segment of the population to "stay away and think for themselves" is a recipe for disaster. But to say that "war on drugs" is not making a difference is incorrect, IMO.

Question: who has actually seen the movie???

[quote=maxman]Question: who has actually seen the movie???[/quote]

Saw it last night - here is what I wrote in another thread...

It's definitely entertaining (Moore is great at that), but there was really nothing shocking or damning in it, and there were so many points where it was obviously a spin and clever editing/selection. He took a bunch of "no-duh" points and blew them way out of proportion - my lord, there are business interests playing in the government?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? OH MY GOD! Who wudda thunk it?! Corruption as usual - sucks, but not shocking.

But aside from the "un-censored" military record of Bush that Moore obtained in 2001 (which lead to conclusions which are documented elsewhere), there really just wasn't anything that people couldn't go out and find for themselves.

Didn't piss me off, didn't inspire me. It left about as lasting of an impression on me as the first Spiderman movie that I watched the night before. Probably even less so due to the constant attention to Kirsten Dunst's rack in Spiderman. :P

---

That being said, I [b]still[/b] don't quite understand why people (even the liberals criticizing him) are so vehemently offended by this movie and Micheal Moore in general. Yes, he is full of shit - that should be obviously clear, even to those that love his work. Big fucking deal - so are most public faces in politics, [b]especially[/b] in an election year.

Is it because there is fear that enough people might take him at face value to actually affect the outcome of the 2004 election? If so, I take the attitude that if people are really fucking [b]lazy[/b] enough to let somebody (or a movie) else form their political opinion, then they deserve whatever outcome befalls them. If people really are willing to take everything they see in an obviously partisan and politically-charged "documentary" at face-value and let it decide their otherwise undecided vote, they are obviously living a manipulated life and suffer every day.

[b]One would hope that a person would leave Fahrenheit 911 asking questions, not thinking that they have all just been answered. [/b]

Otherwise, maybe the majority of us Americans are as stupid as Moore says in his European speeches. :?

Perhaps my expectations for people are too high....also growing up in the brainless wasteland of north Dallas gave me a "fuck 'em" attitude for people who don't think for themselves regarding politics.

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=delirious] [quote] Mr Carney, a former American ambassador with decades of experience in post-conflict zones, spent eight weeks in Iraq trying to get the ministry of industry and minerals up and running.

[b]US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, speaking during a visit to London, admitted the government had overestimated the state of Iraq's infrastructure and found it far worse than expected.

She said Iraq was well below third world standards, even in the cities.

Ms Rice said rebuilding Iraq and creating institutions to govern the country was hindered by the fact that Iraq was a "traumatised" country, which had suffered 30 years of possibly the most brutal regime of the 20th Century. [/b][/quote] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3021632.stm[/url]

Need me to find some more?[/quote]

I don't get it.....what is so revolutionary about the above and how does it strengthen you plight. She said pre-war Iraq was really bad, much worse than they estimated. That means most of destruction in Iraq was done before we even arrived.

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=delirious][quote=Civic_Zen] [b][size=5]Michael Moore thinks American's are Stupid[/size][/b]

Moore has two personalities. In America, he plays the role of "hero for the common American". But when he is in other countries, he criticizes and insults the very same group of American's he claims to be the role model for. The common man.

• To the German fans, Moore asked "Should such an ignorant people (American's) rule the world."

• When a Japanese interviewer remarked that Moore did not appear to like America very much, he said "I like America to some extent."

• In England, regarding American intelligence, "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet."

• When in Canada. "Just for my own mental health, I need to go sit in a room with 600 canadians and watch my movie."

And you think this is a man that respects you enough, as American common men and women, to tell you the unbridled truth?? [/quote]

[size=6]Civic_Zen thinks 90% of Viewers are Uneducated[/size]

[quote=Civic_Zen] [size=6]So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it, will take it that it was Bush's fault.[/size] [/quote] [url]http://www.mercuryserver.com/viewtopic.php?t=1031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=18[/url]

Hmmm...[/quote]

Since this was bumped I might as well respond to this.

I meant uneducated on the topic at hand. And what F9/11 is and stands for. This movie was made for the regular Joe Moviegoer who knows very little about the politics at hand, and will leave the theatre thinking he has it all figured out. Never doing any research himself to find how Moore twists all of the facts around.

I, in no way, meant uneducated regarding all knowledge. Just that a lot of people take what Moore says as gospel. There are 2 sides to every story my friend.

a few points..

1. the average american IS stupid. sorry to break it to you, but you might be the number 1 superpower (at least until china surpases you) but you are ranked #18 in the world in terms of education. there are so many redneck ignorant fucks in the states its mindboggling...anyone who has been to the south cant deny this as true.

2. i know you hate michael moore, and to a large extent i can understand why. but, please dont confuse him with any other media outlet. they are ALL biased...NO ONE TELLS A FULL STORY, each media source has its own twist on things.

3. as much as you dont like to hear this....george bush is a complete retard. the man cant string a sentence together, let alone run a country. you have a C-student running the show...not a pretty sight. he is tactless, clueless about the world outside the US(i can list examples if you like), and a flat out liar.

food for thought...

^Thanks for the sandwhiches you made our troops in WW2 Canada, they were yummy.

we are idiots who make lots of money..........i can live with that. So the entire world is run by a band of idiots. Lol, Europe and Canada are getting bossed around by a bunch of autistic rednecks.....lol. If we suck so bad why don't you guys nut up and take our place. :?:

When are you people going to realize how much you know is not nearly as important as how hard you work. We have a very small intellectual community whose soul purpose is to create and protect technological advancement.........and we pay them dearly.

It's called diversification of the work force. That's why rednecks grow tabacky and work on big rigs........and the intellignecia pioneer new technology and egineering ideas. And all the people to stupid to become part of the intelligencia and too lazy to become part of the economy, become politicians.........or welfare recipients.......i guess technically they are one in the same.:lol:

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

Don?t you love politics!

A few points i?d like to make.

Micheal Moore may be a bad guy, but at least he is rasing the issues that have been ignored by the General Public for far too long. As said by Civic Zen there are two sides to every story, Moore is providing a good counter agument to Bush. The issues he raises need to be dicsussed.

In general amercians are inwardly focused, how many rural communties know or care what is happening in the next state let alone in the outside world, not many i would expect.

In europe we consistanly hear how the USA is the world leader in this area or that, this is because big US business buys up reasearch and delevoplment from Europe and Asia then innovates and delevops these ideas and turns them into workable products, a perfect example is the purchase of Qinetic, formally the R&D arm of the British MoD, by the Carlye Group a major US defence company. I have no problem with this it is how internaltion trade works. What annoys me is the USA shouting how great they are and what world leaders they are in many fields, but always they are doing this for profit, if America lead the way with what is right, morally and ethically then i would be alot happier. An example of this is the Kyto treaty, the enviroment is probably fcuked already, but because it might cost an extra cent on a gallon of gas the US has rejected this treaty out of hand, come on US stand up for what is right not what will make you the most money.

The War. I don?t like being lied to, by my goverment or by the US goverment. The whole basis of the war was chemical weapons, fine so where is this major threat? If the US and UK had been honest and told us the real reasons for invading then their might not have been such a backlash, although i excpect the public would never have supported a war if the honest reasons were stated. On the reasons given for the war why are we not now heading for N korea or into Iran, surely they are more of a threat to the west than an Iraq in the hands of Saddam? On the same note what about the opressed people of Sudan or Zimbabawe, Sudan has oil and a terbble human rights record shouldn?t we invadeding them too?

Lies, hyprocsaisy and ulterior motives just about sums up the bush and blair regeiems, regiem change begins at home is point we should all be thinking of especially coming up to elections in the US & UK.

We are up to Fifty-Nine things that are Deceipful or misleading in F9/11

[url]http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm[/url]

Re: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Michael Moore] [Americans] are possibly the dumbest people on the planet. [/quote] [quote=Civic_Zen] So any uneducated viewer watching this, meaning 90% of those that will see it[/quote]

[quote=Civic_Zen] Since this was bumped I might as well respond to this.

I meant uneducated on the topic at hand. And what F9/11 is and stands for. This movie was made for the regular Joe Moviegoer who knows very little about the politics at hand, and will leave the theatre thinking he has it all figured out. Never doing any research himself to find how Moore twists all of the facts around.

I, in no way, meant uneducated regarding all knowledge. Just that a lot of people take what Moore says as gospel. There are 2 sides to every story my friend.[/quote]

So what you're saying is that you can take a quote from Michael Moore and tell people what he thinks from it, while saying very similar things and then saying you didn't mean them? :lol:

[quote=day_for_night]

1. the average american IS stupid. [/quote]

I don't know if you represent the average Canadian, I hope not, but that's quite possibly the most ignorant remark I've heard on this board. There are over 293 million people living in America..how many do you know? Did you know that there are over 50 terrorist groups established in your beloved country? These include virtually every terrorist group in the world -- including Hezbollah, Hamas, radical Islamic groups from Algeria and Iran, the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, the IRA, Sikh separatists, the Kurdish Worker?s Party, Palestinian Force 17, and the Iranian intelligence service. Hezbollah is not even an illegal organization in Canada. Who's stupid now?

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

90% of the movie might be a lie, but if 10 % is true its still disturbing.

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=pinoqio]90% of the movie might be a lie, but if 10 % is true its still disturbing.[/quote]

Well, when the ninety percent of something is an outright lie, then one begins to question the other 10% as well. Truth is elusive, when one must unspin the weave of spin on it for it to be revealed. M. Moore laid the spin so thick that the aforementioned truth may never reveal itself, at least in his film. But, you're right about one thing - it's important know the truth in the matter the movie put forth to the general public. However, it's also important, with anything of this magnitude, to consider the source (by that I mean the source's political agenda, timing of the movie, funding etc).

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=dohturdima][quote=pinoqio]90% of the movie might be a lie, but if 10 % is true its still disturbing.[/quote]

Well, when the ninety percent of something is an outright lie, then one begins to question the other 10% as well. Truth is elusive, when one must unspin the weave of spin on it for it to be revealed. M. Moore laid the spin so thick that the aforementioned truth may never reveal itself, at least in his film.[/quote]

Can you point out [b]any[/b] "outright lies" in Farenheight 911?

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=delirious][quote=dohturdima][quote=pinoqio]90% of the movie might be a lie, but if 10 % is true its still disturbing.[/quote]

Well, when the ninety percent of something is an outright lie, then one begins to question the other 10% as well. Truth is elusive, when one must unspin the weave of spin on it for it to be revealed. M. Moore laid the spin so thick that the aforementioned truth may never reveal itself, at least in his film.[/quote]

Can you point out [b]any[/b] "outright lies" in Farenheight 911?[/quote]

Well there is speculation about the timing of when bin Laden family members flew back to Saudi Arabia.

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

[quote=Galapidate][quote=delirious]Can you point out [b]any[/b] "outright lies" in Farenheight 911?[/quote]

Well there is speculation about the timing of when bin Laden family members flew back to Saudi Arabia.[/quote]

Speculation is very different from showing where he lied.

Re:: Michael Moore and His Lies, EXPOSED!!

i saw this shite last night. now i don't like Mr. Bush or any other options we are faced with, but Moore's film is obvious liberal commie propaganda. this movie is going to brainwash the stupid american public into thinking, well since Bush is the enemy, then the Democrats must be our salvation. :evil:

i am a conservative, not a republican.

death to the New World Order, long live the Republic.

Fuck Michael Moore and his stupid extreme leftist bullshite.

i think that if you make a movie about this shit, you should hate both sides of the coin. it is not Bush that is the problem, it is the entire government as a whole. i mean is Kerry going to reverse all the shite that Bush has done,NO. is he going to change the government and country back to the way our Founders created it,NO.

59 documented lies.

[url]http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm[/url]

[quote=Jenks]59 documented lies.

[url]http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm[/url][/quote]

Check my post, about 6-7 posts up. :wink:

But now that I think about it, this link should be posted twice.